 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-05 14:57
Can someone dierect me to a video link of someone playing C. Rose Bb etude 22.
thx
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-06 03:43
They're pretty horrible performances, though. You wouldn't want to emulate either of them.
Tony
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-06 09:54
Thx - any chance you could upload a version to youtube - ? I am n Canada - it is grade 9 RCM piece here and I am playing it in a festival
to meet technical requirements , having a bit of trouble makingking it sound melodious but your tread really helps.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-04-06 13:16
I agree completely Tony.
Good luck Agranta!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-06 13:31
Thx - the comments from Tony are extremely helpful and I have a new appreciation for the study. PLEASE - can someone upload a version of this for me to listen to. I'm trying to get the phrasing into my mind and hearing it once a fortnight at lessons isnt helping much. I cant get the speed to 112 - my tongue just wont seem to get me past 100 -Any tips.
Also looking for a youtube/video version of Mozart sonata IV K 336 with Ettinger arrangement -played WITH the cadenza.......any suggestions?
agranta
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-06 16:39
agranta wrote:
>> PLEASE - can someone upload a version of this for me to listen to.>>
I think a better solution is for you to listen to yourself develop your own playing version of your understanding of the piece. What I wrote is a start -- but you'll find, I hope, that what you do develops as you work at it.
'Studies' are just that: namely, things to work at. Copying is something else.
In fact, you'll learn a lot listening to how that young girl FAILS to understand what the piece is about.
Tony
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-06 18:06
Thx - You sound like the teacher! so when it gets it a little faster I'll post to youtube.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-06 18:41
agranta wrote:
Quote:
I'm trying to get the phrasing into my mind and hearing it once a fortnight at lessons isnt helping much. I cant get the speed to 112 - my tongue just wont seem to get me past 100 -Any tips.
I would actually work on phrasing without the instrument first. Try singing it, instead.
That way you can work on the phrasing and musicality up to tempo and you can even "double tongue" (in other words, sing "duh-guh duh-guh" for repeated notes).
One thing to think about in a lot of these etudes (especially the 40 studies, which were originally written for violin) is that although they are technically monophonic, they tend to suggest the presence of multiple simultaneous lines, or call and answer figures that, if written for orchestra or chamber ensemble, would be passed back and forth between different instruments. So one of the important things to do when interpreting an etude like this is to imagine where the different lines are and play the etude in such a way that it sounds like multiple lines, just as in this video (of a violin arrangement of Schubert's famous song, "Der Erlkönig"--different Franz Schubert than who wrote Rose 22, btw--the famous Schubert everybody knows [Franz Peter Schubert] lived in Vienna, while the violinist Franz Anton Schubert who wrote Rose 22 lived in Dresden):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMBZS6iAp2I
Of course, one of the thing violinists have at their disposal is multiple strings, and each string has a different tonal character, which makes embedding multiple "virtual lines" into a single line a little easier. To do the same sort of thing on clarinet, you have to work a little harder. The low strings on violin have a darker, more mellow sound (although the lowest string might be best characterized as "thick" or "robust" sounding)--violinists tend to "dig in" a lot with the bow on low notes to make them project. On the other hand, the high strings are brilliant in tone (especially the "E" string, which starts at top-space E) and project with little effort. You can adapt the sound you make on clarinet to simulate this kind of effect. Also, by being clever about the way you approach phrases, you can suggest the musical contours of both the musical foreground and background of the etude, which makes it more interesting to the listener.
Bach's works for solo strings were written this way (Bach was the master of this sort of thing). Listen to this excerpt from one of Bach's cello suites (and notice how the cellist skips to lower strings to play the bass line). It's monophonic, but simultaneously contrapuntal in concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_QR_FTt3E
As I mentioned in the thread Tony linked to, the way this etude is constructed reminds me a little of the presto movement to Vivaldi's "Summer" from the Four Seasons. The Vivaldi is much faster and more agitated sounding than this etude, but what you can hear in the Vivaldi is the way foreground melody and background harmonic movement can seem to coexist in the same line of music, and how the accenting and phrasing make the structure apparent to the listener. Here's a link to that piece, if you're not familiar with it (I'll bet you are, though--it's quite well known.).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJyo_Kc5uqQ
Post Edited (2010-04-06 18:50)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2010-04-06 23:12
Whoa Tony! Your're in deep trouble now when Kathy Williams finds out you said her version is horrrible...I offered a luke warm critique once and she did NOT take kindly to it.
On the other hand she'd most likely appreciate some input from you.
She's a good ol' head why not give her a useful comment of two. She's put about 200! videos of standard clarinet works on Youtube.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-07 00:10
Why not just record your teacher demonstrating it at one of your lessons? You don't need a video camera, just an audio recorder. Anything with decent fidelity would do.
Jeff
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-07 14:44
Old Geezer wrote:
Quote:
Kathy has a video of Rose 22/40 try;
I wouldn't try to emulate that one, either, though (although it's certainly better than the first video posted of this etude). Her rhythm is rather sloppy (which was a problem on the other video she did [Rose 22/32]) and it's musically kind of monotonous sounding (a number of her other videos are like that, too, I noticed). It also sounds like she's playing it faster than she can really handle (and probably faster than it needs to go, truth be told).
I see what you mean about her not taking criticism well, though--I read some of her responses to comments on other videos.
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-07 14:55
Thx - its too fast for me anyway and having followed the thread for the past 2 days i am working hard on the pharsing to bring our the melody.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-07 15:16
Incidentally, if you would like a good reference recording of Rose's other book of etudes (the 32 etudes), there are two excellent professional recordings available of those.
One is by Sean Osborn (formerly of the Metropolitan Opera, now a professor at U. Washington). (This one is, in my opinion, probably the better of the two as a reference recording, partly because it's unaccompanied, but mostly because Sean Osborn is such a fantastic musician.)
The other is of a new piano-accompanied version, performed by Christopher Hill along with the composer of the piano accompaniment, John Walker. It's a very good recording, too, and the piano accompaniments make it even more interesting. With the accompaniments, the etudes become more like concert pieces.
Both of these recordings are available for purchase on iTunes.
Post Edited (2010-04-07 15:19)
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-07 15:30
Thx - I like to have the play along versions- makes it easier to put in longer hours of practise if you can change it up a little. Maybe they will do the book 2 40 studies soon as well.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-07 23:12
agranta wrote:
>> Thx - I like to have the play along versions- makes it easier to put in longer hours of practise if you can change it up a little.>>
Oh, forget it, everyone. He's not worth bothering about, because he isn't even potentially a musician.
I suppose we take some people on this list too seriously.
Still, others may have benefited by the discussion.
Tony
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Author: agranta
Date: 2010-04-07 23:57
Hey - i'm only 14 and I am really struggling to get the pace up on this pce. Even the youtube posting shows the professional having troulbe with the pace. Playing along with someone keeps up the momento and is useful for us mere mortals who are learners. Despite the last posting - thank you for your comments over the past 2 days. they have helped me alot.
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-04-08 01:04
Let's get one thing clear. The playing on those videos are not at a professional level. Not even close. If you are copying that, you are copying mediocrity.
Learning this etude well it isn't a matter of "mortals" vs. "immortals" or "age 14" vs. "older."
For everything that's clarinet related, it's simply a matter of hours of deep practice- practice where you aren't just listening to yourself, but listening to the idealized version of what you are playing in your head and comparing it to what is coming out of your instrument. Either you (or anyone of any age) are willing to put in this time to learn what needs learning or you're not.
Good for you that you want to get better, but if you are looking for an easy way out- there isn't one.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-08 03:42
agranta wrote:
Quote:
Playing along with someone keeps up the momento and is useful for us mere mortals who are learners.
I think you have it backwards. The way to learn to play something quickly is to practice it SLOWLY and only raise the tempo gradually. If you try to force yourself to play it quickly too soon, you'll end up practicing mistakes and it will impede your progress.
You MUST resist the temptation to go too fast too soon! It is impossible to overemphasize this!!
I recommend you read Sean Osborn's article on how to build technique--it has valuable tips on how to maximize the effectiveness of your practice time:
http://www.osbornmusic.com/Technique1.pdf
Also, you should read the following thread, which concerns an exercise of Tony's which is especially useful for working on tricky or awkward spots (you apply this exercise to three notes taken from the passage in question in order to develop a facility in playing those notes in sequence/combination):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=218262&t=218262
Listening to recordings (provided they are GOOD recordings) can be valuable in learning about style, characteristic tone quality, etc. But recordings cannot help you with the technical aspects of playing, nor are they a substitute for gaining your own experience in musical interpretation. Those things you can only work on by yourself (preferably under the guidance of a good teacher).
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