 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SusanE
Date: 2010-03-07 17:27
Just received my part for Fanny Mendelssohn's "Overture". It is Clarinets in C. Is one to transpose or should I use my C clarinet? What do you think? Interesting also that there are some measures in bass clef!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-03-07 17:49
If you have a C clarinet, definitely put it to use.
Just pondering this same question about Mahler 1st bass clarinet book - I haven't got a C clarinet but the Eb is in unison at the same point so might just play the C parts on Eb. Or maybe borrow a C clarinet if I happen find my transposition (on Bb) isn't all that great as it's been years since I've had to transpose things (and the first rehearsal I can make is tomorrow).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2010-03-07 19:45
I don't get it. If it is written for C clarinet and you have one, why would you consider transposing. If you don't have a C , this question makes more sense to me.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-07 23:16
"I don't get it. If it is written for C clarinet and you have one, why would you consider transposing. If you don't have a C , this question makes more sense to me."
I have a C clarinet, but I transpose most C parts on the Bb- I simply prefer the Bb instrument.
I have not tried any of the newer C clarinets on the market, but I know my instrument, and others that I have tried, do not have the tone quality of the Bb or A instrument.
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-08 01:52
My $0.02 - if you have the instrument, you should use it.
"salzo" "prefers" the sound of the Bb, but I think that's part of the point. The **composer** preferred the sound of the C instrument where she called for it, and the sound of the C clarinet is definitely different from the Bb and/or A clarinet.
Once I got my C clarinet, I was astounded at the difference in sound character that the C clarinet produced, and how many composers had that character in their ear when they used it. "Symphonie Fantastique" is one obvious example, but the last movement of Beethoven 5 is another less obvious but equally striking example.
David
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: SusanE
Date: 2010-03-08 03:10
David -- this is kinda what I am asking -- about the sound of the C. In Mr. B's 5th I transpose.
Have never heard nor played Fanny's piece. Is it the sound of the C that is protocol in this piece.
Thanks
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-08 03:14
Try your C in the last movement next time you play Beethoven 5. It was a revelation to me.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-08 14:05
""salzo" "prefers" the sound of the Bb, but I think that's part of the point. The **composer** preferred the sound of the C instrument where she called for it, and the sound of the C clarinet is definitely different from the Bb and/or A clarinet.
Once I got my C clarinet, I was astounded at the difference in sound character that the C clarinet produced, and how many composers had that character in their ear when they used it. "Symphonie Fantastique" is one obvious example, but the last movement of Beethoven 5 is another less obvious but equally striking example."
Well, I think the use of C clarinet has more to do with the key of the pieces in question, and the technical limitations of the clarinet at the time, than any characteristic differences between the Bb, A, or C clarinets.
I would not presume to know whether or not Beethoven, or any other composer of the 19th century had the "character" of the C clarinet in their ear when they used it, but I tend to doubt it, and think it was used for the reasons mentioned above.
Beethoven used the C clarinet in the last movement of the fifth, because it was in C major. The Bb clarinet was used for the first three movements, because of practical reasons dealing with the clarinet of the time, and the key. Of that time period, if you are playing in a flat key, the Bb clarinet was used. If you are playing in a sharp key, the A clarinet was used, and if you are playing in C major, the C clarinet was used.
Of course there are sporadic exceptions, but they are exceptions.
Berlioz uses Bb, A, C, and Eb clarinets in the Symphony Fantastique. Of course the Eb is used for the "character", but his use of the other instruments is for practical reasons.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-03-08 14:23
I play my C every chance I get, especially if the music calls for it. Only exception is when the C part is not very long and transposiing is easier than switching. Personally, I think C clarinet is a fun instrument to play.
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Author: reddog4063
Date: 2010-03-08 17:50
You have a clarinet in C, how cool is that? Now let it stretch its legs
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-08 20:42
At l'Opera de Montreal at the moment we are doing Verdi's Simon Boccanegra. 90% of the 1st clarinet part is on C clarinet. I am playing it on C clarinet but I can see why one would want to transpose the part onto Bb, especially if one is not used to the C clarinet. On my modern C clarinet the tendencies of most notes are different than those on Bb and A. What you do unconsciously to notes on the Bb and A with regards to pitch placement, you have to force yourself to "undo" and do the opposite very often on C clarinet. This makes for constantly uncomfortable playing.
That said, the increased projection of a modern C clarinet is welcome, except in slow, lyrical solos where the narrowness, shallowness and extra "nose" on the sound is unwelcome.
>The **composer** preferred the sound of the C instrument where she called >for it
David - That claim is repeated often on this list. Aside from Berlioz, who was a relative fetishist for instruments and their sounds, do you know of any documentation that would lead one to believe that classical-era composers preferred the sound of one clarinet over another. Having worked with hundreds of contemporary composers I have a ton of anecdotal evidence that they do not care what instrument (Bb or A) their music is played on.
I have asked every composer from whom I have received a part for A clarinet why they wrote it for A clarinet instead of Bb.*Not a single composer* has ever given me a reason for writing the part for A clarinet. I expected at least a couple of "they say the A clarinet sounds darker" but no, the composer usually shrugs his shoulders and says "no reason". In every case he has printed a new part in Bb for me (one fewer instrument to take on tour)
But back to classical-era composers, every time the discussion of C clarinet comes up on the list, a fact that bears repeating is that there were rules in the classical period which governed which clarinet should be used, depending on the key. A lot has been mentioned, here and elsewhere, about how keys such as D major were "forbidden" on Bb clarinet. A workbook belonging to one of Mozart's students has Mozart's handwriting in the margin, instructing the student that clarinets should only play in C or F major.
Mozart had in his possession at the time of his death a table indicating which clarinet was to be used according to what the concert key was.
I would like to think that classical and romantic composers could hear the difference or preferred the sound of one clarinet over the other but evidence suggests classical and romantic composers made their clarinet assignments on clerical orders (ie The movement is in E major. The guidelines dictate I score the part for A clarinet).
My question is not fatuous or rhetorical - does anyone have evidence that classical composers preferred the sound of the C clarinet when they called for it?
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-03-09 00:08
It may be worth mentioning that the argument that has been offered by the staunchest of the "use the instrument the composer requested" is that, yes, the composers of the classical and early Romantic period chose a clarinet based on key. But once the choice was made, the composer *may have* (no one can read the composer's mind, especially 200 years later) written the part with the characteristics of the specific instrument in mind.
Karl
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-09 00:31
Just back to this discussion -
Peter - no, I really have no proof, except what I hear. I mentioned the Beethoven 5 example because when I played it for the first time on C clarinet, I was struck particularly by how well the C clarinet blended with the tones of the trumpets and oboes. So perhaps Beethoven's choice of instrument was dictated by conventions and/or necessities of keys available to the clarinet, but if so, he made excellent use of the different sonority of the C clarinet. It just ain't the same on Bb clarinet.
I think current composers are less attuned to the subtle differences of timbre that various members of the clarinet family can produce. I have a composer friend who regularly uses the A clarinet because he "wants the extra range that the instrument has", even when he doesn't use the lowest concert C#! Go figure!
Berlioz, of course, is an obvious and easy example. But after Berlioz, I think composers, even those without much of a reputation as orchestrators, became more sensitive to the different sounds of the clarinet family. Richard Strauss and Mahler are other obvious examples. But Verdi also writes often for the C clarinet, and it makes a difference in the texture of the orchestral woodwinds to use the requested instrument. It may be more comfortable for the player, and more convenient to transpose, but that doesn't make it musically right.
Of course, I can also think of a few examples where composers didn't think the issue through very well. I certainly don't claim that composers are omniscient and infallible, as some who make this argument do. But going against the express instructions of the composer is starting down Dan Leeson's proverbial "slippery slope", and should be done thoughtfully and with great care.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-09 00:51
I've never played a C clarinet in an ensemble, but my thought is that there is more difference from player to player than there is between C, Bb, and A clarinets.
I've read about a clarinetist who pawned his A and simply played everything on his Bb (except maybe that lowest note), and the conductor never knew the difference.
Playing an unruly clarinet --that doesn't take the same scale compensations as the others in one's quiver is an ugly, ugly thing, so I can see preferring to transpose than to suffer bad intonation.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-09 05:26
A period clarinet-maker who is making me a classical-era boxwood clarinet recently played Beethoven 1 in a period orchestra (on one of his 5-key boxwood instruments). He relayed to me that after years of being bored to tears playing that symphony on a modern instrument, playing on the original instrument with other original instruments was a completely different experience. Unlike in a modern orchestra, everything he played was heard but without being loud. It was more like chamber music. He had a sonic fit in the orchestra.
My point is that our instruments today don't sound like the instruments that Beethoven heard when he wrote his music. Todays instruments are, by comparison, sonically pimped and hyperfocused.
To say you have to play a Beethoven Bb part on Bb when the modern Bb doesn't sound anything like the period Bb does not make sense to me.
>I really have no proof, except what I hear.
Hearing a modern C clarinet in the context of a modern orchestra and extrapolating from that that classical-era composers preferred the sound of the C clarinet when they called for is not terribly convincing. I mean no disrespect by that, nor am I trying to pick a fight. I actually want to believe that the different instruments held different meanings for early composers but nobody, Dan Lesson included, has offered a scrap of evidence supporting that supposition. The reasoning for insisting the indicated clarinet be used is often emotional.
If one wants to use a Bb clarinet in a solo written for C clarinet because one finds the Bb's sound richer and one has a professional obligation and desire to play the solo more in tune, I don't feel his integrity is for sale.
Bob wrote "I've never played a C clarinet in an ensemble, but my thought is that there is more difference from player to player than there is between C, Bb, and A clarinets."
Very true. Some people play dark on any setup and instrument, some people play bright on the same setup and instrument.
Throw into the mix the fact that modern A, Bb and C clarinets don't sound like their counterparts from the classical-era and the "you must play the part on the indicated instrument" argument becomes inapplicable.
There are those who feel if we play classical-era music on modern instruments we are playing on the "wrong instruments", so different is the sound and approach of the modern instrument and instrumentalist.
In this light, playing a C part on modern Bb for classical music might be seen as immaterial, a much lesser transgression than playing that music on powerful instruments that have little in common with the aesthetic of the period and its music.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-09 07:14
Simon- I doubt that the kind of "proof" that you are looking for will easily be found. (Except in a few examples like the writings of Berlioz, Strauss's score of Rosenkavalier, and Stravinsky's 3 pieces). But I do believe that a certain amount of subjective "proof" can be found in actually playing the music.
Before I carry on though, let me say that I agree with you on certain points:
-modern clarinets sound different from their historical predecessors
-differences from players to player are bigger than from instrument to instrument
I think the truth is to be found somewhere in between the fundamentalist stance that "composers wrote for the instrument so we must use it" and the idea that it doesn't matter which instrument we play on.
I've just finished a run of performances of Idomeneo, in which we played historical clarinets pitched in A, B-flat, B-natural (!) and C. Two things struck me as interesting from this experience:
1. In the overture Mozart uses clarinets in A. The overture is in D major, so this is a logical choice. But at the end of the overture there are several ascending woodwind scales, which for the transposed clarinet parts run through C major, B-flat minor, A-flat major, F major, E-flat minor and D-flat major. At first I thought "how the hell am I supposed to play in D-flat major with 5 keys?"! (The scales are in the lower register, so we're talking about very awkward forked fingerings and half-holes) I ran through the possibilities of playing these scales on any of the 4 clarinets at my disposal, but realised that it didn't really help because there would always be awkward passages regardless of which transposition I used. It was also not possible to quickly change instruments in between because the scales follow each other in rapid succession. So I just had to practise. I can now proudly say that I'm capable of playing all these scales on 5-keyed clarinets, and that it IS possible to play in keys with many flats or sharps. But Mozart most have known this already in 1781.
2. The other thing that struck me was how sparingly Mozart used the clarinets. With four instruments at his disposal, and even making sure that the clarinet parts where always written in C major or F major, he could use clarinets in almost any key. It seemed that when he did use the clarinet, he wanted to feature it as part of the sound colour of that particular piece. When the clarinets play it is always noticeable. So he gets a very different colour using say clarinets, bassoons and horns, than he would using flutes, oboes and bassoons. And he gets special effects just using the two clarinets in featured passages. My instinct also told me, while playing these pieces, that often (not always) the character of the specific instrument used really matched the music, especially in the use of the "bright" clarinets" (B-natural and C). The C clarinet obviously has the appropriate more trumpet-like sound when played loudly in marches, the liveliness of articulation when playing staccato passages, and certain lightness and floating quality when playing soft lyrical passages. There were parts in Idomeneo (in concert E major) which would have been easier for me to play on my A clarinet, but which were written for B-natural clarinet. Having made the effort to battle through getting used to a new instrument and struggling with the tuning problems, I can now very clearly see how the end result was much more appropriate to the character and meaning of the music (eg. in an aria about wishes floating on the breeze) when played on the "lighter" sounding instrument. The keys that Mozart uses also seem to be wrapped together with certain musical characters, so that he would never write a march in E major, for example. The choice of clarinet is inextricably linked to the choice of key, and therefore also the choice of mood. (We've all read about how 18th and 19th century composers associated certain keys with certain emotions).
Enough about Idomeneo. I now want to argue certain points with you in which I don't agree:
-Saying that contemporary composers that don't care whether we use A or B-flat clarinets is some kind of "proof" that it is irrelevant to us players using modern instruments in classical and romantic repertoire is a feeble argument. Contemporary composers have a very different set of aesthetics from classical composers, in which the emotional characteristic of various tonalities is perhaps the most glaring example.
-Even though modern instruments sound very different from historical ones, there are certain qualities of the differently pitched instruments which remain the same. Both historical and modern C clarinets sound lighter, "brighter" and crisper than A clarinets. If it really didn't matter which modern clarinet we played then we could all sell our A clarinets and invest in one full-Boehm B-flat to play everything on. Many players last century did this (including my main teacher). But I'm sure than at least 95% of clarinetists today would be averse to the idea of playing the Mozart clarinet concerto on a full-Boehm B-flat instrument because it's got the "wrong " sound quality. Even the modern A clarinet has a "darker" more haunting sound that it's B-flat counterpart. Would you really transpose the famous solo from Tosca onto your B-flat clarinet? But my main point here is that the difference in sound between C and B-flat clarinets is BIGGER than the difference in sound between B-flat and A clarinets. Why is it that so many modern clarinetists wouldn't dream of not playing on an A clarinet, but see C clarinets as quirky luxuries? Doesn't make sense to me.
-If your "professional obligation and desire to play the solo more in tune" leads you away from playing the C clarinet then IMO it means that you simply haven't practised enough C clarinet. The misconception that C clarinets don't play in tune is just laziness on the part of clarinetists who don't want to practise another instrument. No clarinets play in tune. If you want to play E-flat or bass clarinet you have to spend a lot of time working on the intonation. We've all spent lots of time working to play in tune on B-flat and A clarinets. But when we pick up a C clarinet and it doesn't immediately play perfectly in tune then we decide that it's easier to speak condescendingly of C clarinets than it is to practise them! :-)
Why am I so passionate about C clarinets? Because I've spent a lot of time and energy playing on them in classical and romantic orchestral repertoire. We strive to give our very best to the music, expending our energy to make beautiful sounds, play in tune and try to find what the composer was expressing in his score. Composers didn't always think about or even know about which clarinet would sound best in a given passage. But I've always started by giving the composer the benefit of the doubt and doing my best to try to play on the instrument that the composer wrote for. Sometimes I give up and get better results using a different instrument. But often I'm surprised at the better musical result of using C clarinets. That's proof enough for me.
Post Edited (2010-03-09 07:18)
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-03-09 14:52
Liquorice - Bravo! Particularly on your last four points. It's what I would have liked to say, but didn't.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Don Gross
Date: 2010-03-09 15:08
When it's called for, I use my 60s vintage Noblet C clarinet for the same reason I will never again perform the Gran Partitta with Bb clarinets playing transposed basset horn parts. Once you've heard/experienced the work performed as Mozart wrote it, you're "spoiled." It's the color.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-09 19:26
In my research trying to find evidence of classical composers preferring the sound of particular soprano clarinets over others, I have discovered two things.
1) No anecdotal or written evidence yet that suggests classical-era composers preferred the sound of one soprano instrument over another (I am still looking).
2) The practice of transposing a C part onto Bb is by no means a recent phenomenon. At the beginning of the 1800s players were suggesting playing C parts on the Bb! In Michel's "Methode" of 1801, he suggests always playing on the Bb, transposing when the part is in C. He explains in his "Methode" that the Bb clarinet is a whole step lower which necessitates transposing "but this slight inconvenience disappears in front of all good musicians, who find an advantageous compensation in its more beautiful and vigorous tone."
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Over 200 years later and we are debating the same topic!
I know everything can not necessarily be proven with "evidence". My gut tells me the same thing your guts are telling you - that classical composers appreciated (and perhaps exploited) the varying tonal colors of the different clarinets. I find it strange however that I can find no corroboration or substantiation of this notion.
For me it is too minor a point to pursue when the debate turns catty.
Past threads on this board have shown that civil discussion on this topic is impossible. The two parties end up discussing two different points, with the "I have no evidence to back up what I am saying but I am right because I feel it" crowd claiming the moral high-ground.
"If your "professional obligation and desire to play the solo more in tune" leads you away from playing the C clarinet then IMO it means that you simply haven't practised enough C clarinet. The misconception that C clarinets don't play in tune is just laziness on the part of clarinetists who don't want to practise another instrument."
Ah, the "laziness" accusation. When I saw who the post was from I knew the laziness insult was not far behind, since it often accompanies posts on this subject. When the comments stoop to disparagement, that's where I bow out. (That's what I meant when I said discussions on this topic become emotional.)
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2010-03-09 20:08
Interesting discussion. I tryed out a Ridenour C this weekend and was quite impressed with it. I accompanied a mezzo-soprano soloist (with piano) and really liked the blend. Best of all, I didn't have to transpose the music. I played it straight off the page.
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-03-09 20:30
I have a Rossi C, love it, and cherish for its own very unique color. What amazes me about the Mozart chamber pieces with multiple clarinets is precisely the blend of the different colors, something that would be lost by reducing the number of different ones, and I think that is about the most evidence one can hope for.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-09 21:01
Simon- I'm sorry you took my post to be insulting or disparaging. It really wasn't meant to be. I'm surprised that you feel insulted because that part of the discussion wasn't even about you but rather some hypothetical clarinetist that you were referring to. To quote your part of the post in full:
"If one wants to use a Bb clarinet in a solo written for C clarinet because one finds the Bb's sound richer and one has a professional obligation and desire to play the solo more in tune, I don't feel his integrity is for sale"
But you have to admit that your post does imply that a B-flat instrument is more "in tune" than a C clarinet. I'm not sure I agree, and even so I don't believe that this is a justification to play on the B-flat instead of the C. You could also argue the same about an E-flat clarinet or a basset horn, but I can't see that playing those parts on a B-flat clarinet represents a "professional obligation" to play in tune. I still maintain that if your hypothetical clarinetist can't play in tune on his C clarinet then he simply hasn't spent enough time working on it. I'd call this laziness, but perhaps you have another word for it?
In any case, I certainly wasn't accusing YOU of being lazy. I'm actually very impressed that you're playing the Verdi on C clarinet. I just disagree with some of the points you made.
I don't know of anecdotal written evidence of classical composers preferring tonal characteristics of particular clarinets either. But do we really need it? Perhaps there's no written evidence to prove that Bach liked the sound of the oboe d'amore, but that fact that he wrote parts for it in his scores makes it obvious which instrument he wanted in those instances.
Sometimes the score implies that composers wanted the sound of a particular clarinet. For example, in one instance Mozart uses A clarinets with 4 flats in the key signature, where he could have followed the normal rule and used C clarinets with only 1 flat in the key signature. Surely this is proof that Mozart wanted the sound of the A clarinet here? There are other examples of this kind of thing in Beethoven and Schubert, and many examples in Verdi.
Post Edited (2010-03-09 21:06)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-09 22:01
Liquorice wrote:
> For example, in one instance Mozart uses
> A clarinets with 4 flats in the key signature, where he could
> have followed the normal rule and used C clarinets with only 1
> flat in the key signature. Surely this is proof that Mozart
> wanted the sound of the A clarinet here?
Seems like it is, unless he needed the lower range you get with an A clarinet. (Since I don't know which piece/excerpt you're referring to, I don't know if that's the case or not.)
Incidentally, I played 2nd clarinet in Mendelssohn's 5th Symphony on a concert this past weekend, which makes extensive use of C clarinet. Unfortunately, I don't own one, so I had to play it on Bb. It does seem clear to me from now having played the piece, though, that Mendelssohn expected that the clarinets would be quite prominent and "bright" sounding (playing unison altissimo notes, for instance), even though it also seems reasonably clear that the choice of clarinet was dictated by the key signatures.
I think that, in those days, to be a successful composer, you probably had to have a more detailed understanding of each instrument you wanted to orchestrate for, because the instruments of the time had so many technical limitations. Plus, since they didn't have recordings, the only way to learn what an instrument sounded like would have been to hear someone play it for you in person, in which case you might be in a better position to know whether the person is playing a C clarinet or a Bb clarinet or an A clarinet, etc. because they're standing in front of you with instrument in hand. That's a quite different scenario from today, when you can listen to numerous recordings of clarinets of any size or key without having any clue as to which clarinet you are listening to.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-09 22:13
OK Simon- I found something...
In 1812 Iwan Müller presented his new "clarinette omnitonique" to a committee at the Paris Conservatoire. On the commission were Catel, Cherubini, Gossec, Méhul, Sarrette, Lefèvre and Duvernoy. His invention was supposedly the first clarinet that could play in all keys, thereby allowing the clarinetist to play on only one instrument. The composers condemned it, saying that it was necessary to have clarinets in A, B-flat and C because of the difference in tone quality that these instruments had. They even described these differences:
"la clarinette en ut a le son brillant et vif, la clarinette en sib est propre au genre pathétique et majestueux, la clarinette en la est propre au genre pastoral."
and they finished by saying:
"Il est incontestable que la nouvelle clarinette de M. Müller, si elle était exclusivement adoptée, priverait les compositeurs de la ressource que leur donne l'emploi de ces caractères très distincts."
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-09 22:21
mrn- it's the Kyrie K.341. The lowest note in the clarinet parts is written C in the chalumeau. This would have been an A for a C clarinet, so clearly the lower register wasn't the issue.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-03-21 19:55
I've just rattled through the last movement of Mahler 1st on a Leblanc LL C clarinet that I've borrowed for the performance of it next Sunday, and what a lovely instrument it is to play! I wouldn't mind adding one of these to my collection.
I'd probably end up adding the forked Eb mechanism and LH Ab/Eb key if I bought one for myself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-03-21 20:04
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Play it in C - if the composer wanted the timbre of a kazoo, so
> be it.
Don't be unfair, David. It does have a different voice, okay, but a Kazoo? Nah.
Still love my Amati.
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-03-21 21:20
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> But you left out my wink.
Oops, sorry. My bad. <hangs head>
I actually like the more "human" voice of a C clarinet. I bought mine to accompany daughter 1.0 on the piano. (I'd switch to alto and add some sharps to help her with the left hand)
--
Ben
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-22 15:43
I am bowing back into this discussion (if that is the opposite of bowing out).
"OK Simon- I found something...
In 1812 Iwan Müller presented his new "clarinette omnitonique" to a committee at the Paris Conservatoire. On the commission were Catel, Cherubini, Gossec, Méhul, Sarrette, Lefèvre and Duvernoy. His invention was supposedly the first clarinet that could play in all keys, thereby allowing the clarinetist to play on only one instrument. The composers condemned it, saying that it was necessary to have clarinets in A, B-flat and C because of the difference in tone quality that these instruments had."
I was aware of this judgement, but it is not the smoking gun I am looking for (a classical-era composer indicating he is writing for a particular clarinet like C clarinet because of its timbre).
There are two factors concerning the Paris Conservatoire decision:
1) I interpret the above quote by the composers on the panel as a simple acknowledgement of the timbral differences between C, Bb and A clarinets.
2) In discussing Muller's omnitonic clarinet, Colin Lawson opines in his book "The Early Clarinet", "its rejection by a committee of members of the Paris Conservatoire in 1812 was as much on political as musical grounds". If there is truth to Lawson's statement, the French committee might have been searching for reasons to reject an instrument by a German maker, perhaps by stating the obvious, that the different clarinets have different tonal characteristics.
As an off-topic but interesting aside, Lawson points out that when this omnitonic (13-key) clarinet became popular (and led to even more keys being added) people like Klose came up with alternate fingerings for notes, to allow for different color on the same note (change of fingering on consecutive same notes), higher leading tones and 5ths, lower 7ths and 3rds, etc. All this to compensate for the new uniformity throughout the compass of this new instrument.
I find it interesting that as the clarinet started to creep toward the timbral uniformity it exhibits today, players of the day immediately started to find fingerings that allowed for timbral variety, fingerings that undid or counteracted the homogeneity being introduced into the instrument.
The struggle against the dullness intrinsic in the uniform-sounding modern instrument started almost immediately (before 1820)!, and could be seen to continue until today among those who prefer the sound of period over modern instruments.
Back to the topic, Liquorice - I agree with you that composers for early clarinet must have been sensitive to the color differences between the different clarinets, maybe even infrequently writing "against the key signature" to exploit the timbre of a particular clarinet. To think otherwise seems to be an insult to both the genius of Mozart and the intuition of intelligent performers. Some forums and publications need more proof than intuition however. I am simply looking for proof for what *we both believe*.
At the universities I attended (Yale, Northwestern and McGill) I often thought the worlds inhabited by academics were somewhat dismal and sunless - worlds where nothing could be stated without having several sources for your assertion, where instinct and intuition are enemies of responsible research.
I suppose I am reluctantly borrowing a page from their book in hoping to find evidence to validate what we feel. Occasionally I wear an academic hat and must be able to back up assertions with documentation - a tedious notion for active players but perhaps a necessary evil.
Cordially,
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-03-22 17:27
Just a couple of thoughts on this issue -
I have a strong memory of watching my teacher rehearse the Schubert octet which has the variation movement in C and the rest on B flat. She tried her C clarinet but decided that she would play it on the B flat and transpose for reasons of timbre and tone, possibly more noticeable because the other players were on modern-day instruments and using twentieth-century style bowing technique, strings etc. Personally I thought the difference was quite noticeable and that the C probably would not have held its own in that particular ensemble.
Secondly, let's not forget that a C can be a handy thing to have around in a concert band, for example, if you are short of oboes or even flutes.
On the other hand, I would agree that ability to transpose at sight is something we should have up our sleeves and, ideally practise regularly.
Vanessa.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-22 19:31
Simon- thanks for bowing back in!
It would be nice to have more "proof" to back up what our intuition tells us. Let's keep looking and share whatever we can find.
I'd like to know more about the "political grounds" regarding the rejection of Müller's clarinet. Interesting how many of the major "French" innovators of the clarinet were actually foreign. Lefevre was Swiss. Iwan Müller was Russian, born in Reval (modern day Estonia) to German parents. And Theodor Boehm was German.
So, in a way, the "Boehm system" is actually a German system! ;-)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-22 22:03
Liquorice wrote:
> Interesting how many of
> the major "French" innovators of the clarinet were actually
> foreign. Lefevre was Swiss. Iwan Müller was Russian, born in
> Reval (modern day Estonia) to German parents. And Theodor Boehm
> was German.
Theobald Böhm was German, alright, but he didn't develop the Boehm system of clarinet keywork. His claim to fame was developing modern flute keywork. It was Hyacinthe Klose and Auguste Buffet (both French) who developed the Boehm system clarinet.
The reason it is called the Boehm system is that it uses the same kind of ring keys Theobald Böhm invented for use on the flute.
Post Edited (2010-03-22 22:04)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2010-03-23 02:24
>keys such as D major were "forbidden" on Bb clarinet.
Do we know why D major was "verboten"?
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-23 04:39
>>keys such as D major were "forbidden" on Bb clarinet.
>Do we know why D major was "verboten"?
Keys such as D major were not recommended on the early 5-key clarinet because they are awkward to execute, compared with F and C major. For example, there is only a left long B and left long C# (no right B and C#) so to play from B to C# you have to slide from left B to left C#. Sometimes the long keys of those notes are from hell.
We know that Mozart himself wanted his students to write for clarinet only when the transposed keys were C and F major. A workbook belonging to one of Mozart's students has Mozart's handwriting in the margin, instructing the student that clarinets should only play in C or F major.
Also Mozart had in his possession at the time of his death a table indicating which clarinet was to be used according to what the concert key was.
What is interesting is when Mozart ignores the rules of his time (and his own rules) when he writes in "forbidden" keys.
Simon
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The Clarinet Pages
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