 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-02 11:01
Paul -
Very nice, but for my aging eyes, you *really* need to reverse the text from white-on-black to the usual black-on-white. I know you want something different from the ordinary, but you get that with good content (which you have), rather than site design.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-02 12:18
Just a couple of geeky questions. What are silicone quartz resonance pads? Are they buttons that appear in the center of a "normal" pad, or is the whole pad silicone quartz?
Also, I am a mechanical geek too. Are the pivots fairly standard pointed cones or are they flat ended? Is there any use of extra long axles such as on Boosey 1010s?
........just curious,
...........................Paul Aviles
PS congratualtions on the new horns
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-02 12:18
could you tell us how much they cost, and how long it took for you to get there from ordering?
some mp3 comparisons would also be nice!
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-02-02 14:51
I wonder how much difference exists between a Wurlitzer and a Schwenk und Seggelke... maybe I have to somehow get to musikmesse after all.
O yes, how long did it take for those clarinets to be made and delivered to you in all? Was there any kind of a waiting list to go through?
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-02 15:04
Hi everyone, I'll try to answer a few of these questions real quick:
Ken, I just changed the site format for easier legibility. Good call.
Paul, thanks for the congrats... I'm REALLY excited about these instruments! The silicone quarts resonance pads appear to be a quartz resonator that extends from the center of the pad to about 75% of the way to the edge. It's entirely covered by a thin layer of red silicone, which provides a very good seal and is ridiculously quiet. I took off a few keys to clean up one of the pads which was sticking (the one underneath the left hand A), and I found that the mechanism is constructed using very long axles rather than the pointed screws found in modern Buffets. The mechanism feels extremely smooth, almost as if there were a Teflon coating on the ends of all the moving parts... Also, I'll be putting up some detailed tuning charts, pictures of the mechanism, and some mp3 files in a few days - I'll post in here once that's done.
srattle, I ordered the instruments on December 2 and received them on January 27 - this includes the shipping time and the wait at US Customs. It seems to take about two weeks to get through international shipping. I was quoted €9100 for the set which included shipping. Fortunately as a non-EU customer, I was not subject to the 19% VAT, and for some reason the instruments cleared customs without me having to pay any import duties. Your mileage may vary.
Franklin, the original invoice suggested a typical wait time of 3-4 months on the instruments. I was lucky to order when I did since Schwenk & Seggelke were finishing up some other projects and were able to slip me in rather quickly. I also asked them if it was possible to expedite the process since I wanted to use the instruments in a couple big shows and an audition - they are very accommodating and easy to work with. I've played a little bit on an Oehler system Wurlitzer, and while I don't have nearly enough experience with those instruments, I can say that the quality of construction is just as high, maybe even higher than the S&S clarinets. They're very expensive though, and I don't think the intonation was very good even on a well-matched German mouthpiece. A lot of that has to do with my embouchure and voicing, but when the owner of the horn played it, he seemed to be making a lot of adjustments for pitch. I think Wurlitzer horns are more conservative in their design than the Schwenk/Seggelke instruments. The other problem (and this not my own observation) is that Oehler instruments in general have a lot more holes drilled into the bore - this is to give the player more options for specific fingerings to correct intonation issues, but it tends to blunt the sound just a little bit when compared with Boehm instruments.
- Paul Miller
Post Edited (2010-02-02 23:30)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2010-02-02 15:49
Now that you've spent about $12,000 dollars on a pair of clarinets, you're really going to do some plain and fancy wood shedding...right?
Schwenk and Seggelke clarinets seen great...but they don't have any
professional stars endorsments. Where's Rudy M. when we need him?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-02 16:34
Mr. Geezer,
Indeed. I do try to practice at least three hours a day outside of my other playing commitments.
As far as professional endorsements are concerned, it was Charles Neidich who originally commissioned the design from S&S and he plays on their instruments extensively.
Paul
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-02 18:25
Here is the website
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/englisch/klarinetten_3000.php
Wasn't aware that Charles Neidich was involved in these, I had heard different from a few people close to S&S.
Beautiful instruments though.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-02 18:29
To be specific, Neidich was involved primarily in the design of the original M1000 instruments. He may have had some influence on the M3000 series but I really couldn't say for sure.
Paul
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-02-02 18:48
Paul,
Thank you for the review. I am a big fan of custom German clarinets. Johann Christoph Denner himself was German veom Nürnberg.
You wrote that you use a French mouthpiece with Vandoren reeds. Perhaps you would consider a German mouthpiece, like Viotto that uses white master reeds?
For further refinement you may want to try a Viotto with White master reeds for three reasons: 1. The throat tones sound even better because their less airy (you can have an extremely narrow tip opening and still have it free blowing), 2. The altissimo responds more effortlessly because the reed is smaller and responds to a lighter air stream. 3. You can use the same reeds for your Eb clarinet. Of course since you are in contact mit Herrn Seggelke, perhaps you can ask him about this option.
What was your reasoning for buying the French bore rather than the German bore?
You also bought your clarinet at a good time because with the US Government borrowing more money, the dollar will continue it's slide against the euro for years to come. Remember when the euro was originally issued the idea was that one euro would equal one dollar. So anything below 1.00 means the dollar is weak. So now at .71 the dollar is very weak but it will get much weaker. It isn't called the American Peso for nothing.
Congratulations on your purchase.
Bartmann de Jong
Post Edited (2010-02-02 19:10)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-02-02 20:42
There is a picture of Neidich in the January newsletter from the World clarinet alliance holding the boxwood version of the 1000 model.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-02 21:11
As for customs duty, according to the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (2010), woodwinds pay no tariff when imported into the U.S. unless they come from Cuba or North Korea. The exception is bamboo flutes (go figure).
Brass instruments, for some reason, pay 2.9%.
Your new clarinets sound like wonderful instruments!
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-02-02 21:17
For me though, I have to pay a GST and PST, something like 12% when I get that. God forbid if the said instrument's send to me via UPS ground, for the brokerage fee piles up. Fortunately, there is no tariff for importing Clarinets into Canada either.
@Bartmann: I was jittery when Canadian dollar hit parity with USD in 2008. I think that parity might happen again actually, given the price of raw materials and energy.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-02 21:37
Iceland Clarinet,
I had heard he was involved in the boxwood versions so your picture figures. Francois Benda as I was told, was involved with the blackwood versions.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-02 21:47
I'm sure there aren't significant design differences between the boxwood and grenadilla versions of the M1000 instrument other than the tenon rings. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, however, to find that there were several really great clarinetists involved in the design.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-02-03 01:20
The Australian virtuoso Richard Haynes performs on a pair of these- I have heard him perform recently and was very impressed with all aspects of his playing, especially his intonation and dynamic range.
dn
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-02-03 04:22
>> and I found that the mechanism is constructed using very long
>> axles rather than the pointed screws found in modern Buffets.
Actually Buffet and pretty much all other clarinets have keys mounted using both long rod screws and pointed pivot screws, depending on the key. For keys with longer hinges, the point pivot screws are a better mounting method.
I agree with Ken and thanks for changing the colours. I recommend to change the "natural" looking background to a smooth colour. Being colourblind, website colours an issue more than for most others. The spots sometimes blur the letters a bit.
>> I wonder how much difference exists between a
>> Wurlitzer and a Schwenk und Seggelke... maybe
>> I have to somehow get to musikmesse after all.
I don't remember those companies there last year and I'm almost sure they won't be there this year. OTOH there were a gazzilion other German clarinets there.
Post Edited (2010-02-03 04:31)
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Author: fruitbat
Date: 2010-02-03 07:03
Congratulations! S&S clarinets have very good reputation and S&S is one of the most innovative manfacturer in Germany. Unfortunately their clarinets are not very often played here. I don't know why. Wurlitzer is still No 1.
There are two other manufacturers that are worth a visit if somebody wants to buy a german boehm clarinet: Dietz and Leitner & Kraus.
I would no more buy a clarinet made in mass production after bad experience with some of them.
Now I own a Cl. Wurlitzer Reform Boehm that has not changed at all over the years (hand selected and long time aged wood). The manufacturer can remember me and the instrument he made for me 10 years ago. I really enjoy the contact to him and the fact that I know the person who built this wonderful instrument. The thougt that my clarinet is one of a 20 pices per year production, handmade and not cnc drilled makes my happy. That sounds bit strange I know...
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Author: Lam
Date: 2010-02-04 01:23
Hi Paul,
I noticed that the S&S clarinet that Neidich use are designed with the roller-type key for the left hand little finger (similar to an German fingering clarinet), are yours the same ? by the way, are the horns tuned in A=440Hz?
Post Edited (2010-02-04 01:37)
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-04 01:48
Yes, the clarinets do have rollers installed for the right hand pinky keys.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-04 14:01
There's a video (which has been mentioned before) of Charles Neidich performing the Weber Quintet on a Schwenk & Seggelke boxwood Boehm clarinet http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1244733405929888.
There are a few odd intonation problems, possibly because Neidich constantly experiements with mouthpieces, or possibly because boxwood quickly absorbs water and changes shape.
Ken Shaw
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-04 15:16
Thanks for the video Ken. It truly is a beautiful looking and sounding instrument. In my experience of boxwood it is quite stable. I think the intonation issues here are mainly down to the quartet.
Maybe boxwood will come back into fashion after all these years.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-04 15:56
Somethin' will have to come into fashion once the last M'Pingo is chopped down. Where's "the Lorax" when you need him.
Let's not forget the gold keys........that's where it's at !!!!
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-02-05 17:23
Paul,
What have your colleagues said when they tried out your clarinets? (If one of my colleagues walked into rehearsal with a pair of these funky looking clarinets, I would want to put my mouthpiece and reed on them and give them a test drive!)
I'm sure it took you a while to become accustomed to the differences in these clarinets. So I wonder what others experienced when they tried them.
Bartmann
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-05 21:35
Bartmann wrote:
"For further refinement you may want to try a Viotto with White master reeds for three reasons: 1. The throat tones sound even better because their less airy (you can have an extremely narrow tip opening and still have it free blowing), 2. The altissimo responds more effortlessly because the reed is smaller and responds to a lighter air stream. "
I've recently been fooling around with a Wurlitzer clarinet, together with a new Wurlitzer mouthpiece that is to be played with French (thick and longer blank) reeds. Vandoren V12 reeds are recommended to be used with this mouthpiece, and the mouthpiece facing is similar to a Vandoren B40. The advantages which you ascribe to a Viotto mouthpiece are very evident in this set-up. So I believe that it is the German bore shape which makes the throat notes clearer and the altissimo easier, not the use of German facing and reeds. I've tried a Viotto German bore/facing mouthpiece on a French clarinet and the results weren't great.
But the real point is that these S&S instruments (the M1000) are French bore instruments, made to be played with a French style mouthpiece, not a German one.
By the way, seeing you're such a big fan of German clarinet makers, have you tried the Boehm system? Boehm, as we all know, was German :-)
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-06 08:13
Re: the mouthpiece... When I asked Jochen to build the clarinets for me, he wanted to know what kind of mouthpiece I was using. From what I understand, he got a copy of the mouthpiece (a Clark Fobes CWF, based on the Zinner "A" blank) and used it to fine tune the intonation and response of both clarinets. It's a strange thing, but my colleagues who have tried the instruments with their mouthpieces have not had very good results - but once they used my setup the difference was remarkable.
Re: colleagues... Everyone who has tried the instruments has loved them, once they had my mouthpiece on. Comments have included "very easy to play," "it's like they play themselves," "effortless," "wow," and "I don't need to make any adjustments". I performed a few pieces in a pickup concert tonight (mozart quartet, brahms trio, stravinsky three pieces) and a cellist friend of mine who has played a lot of chamber music with clarinet was very impressed with the effortless and colorful sound quality. Its ability to blend with strings is remarkable.
Re: tuning... I asked Jochen to tune the clarinets to A440. The instruments included barrels of 65, 66, and 67 mm for both horns, so pitch doesn't seem to be an issue. The Bb is trending just a hair sharp but I think that's because I still have a bad habit of biting too much and not using enough mouthpiece. When I relax and take a bit more reed, the instrument settles right on the money. The A clarinet reacts the same way if I'm not playing it correctly.
What I've realized over the last couple of days is that these instruments do not like to be pushed around. Like very high quality string instruments, you have to let them do a lot of the work or they won't cooperate. On the whole, they are very, very good for my playing. I'm still having a problem with the high D popping a little bit too much (not very much, but compared with the smoothness of the rest of the instrument it's noticable) when I approach it with a leap (think Beethoven 6 mvt I), but again, I know I'm still trying to play it like a Buffet. It'll probably take me another couple weeks to get really comfortable with the instruments, and maybe several months before I'm fluent with them.
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-02-08 13:46
Paul,
Yes the transition from a French clarinet to a German clarinet is not a simple one. Yet when one holds a S&S, Würlitzer, L&K, in their hands, and sound their first notes, the appeal of the instrument becomes obvious.
You write about a level of customization of your clarinets that the French makers can't even begin to match. Can you imagine calling Buffet, and having them match the intonation based on your mouthpiece.
Liquorice wrote:
"I've tried a Viotto German bore/facing mouthpiece on a French clarinet and the results weren't great." Leider könntest du nicht besser getan.
Bartmann
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-08 15:56
Bartmann wrote: "Leider könntest du nicht besser getan"
Yes it's a shame, but I don't feel too bad because Mr Viotto himself doesn't recommend doing this. He makes some mouthpieces for French bores and other for German bores (Or to be more precise he puts facings onto existing Zinner German or French shaped mouthpieces). I'm not saying that Viotto mouthpieces aren't good. I get good results from a Viotto German mouthpiece on a German bore instrument. I'm also saying that the advantages which you ascribe to the mouthpiece/reed are (I believe) actually an advantage of the German bore shape.
We can either discuss these points, or you can give me more disguised insults- which would turn you into a bit of a bore! :-)
By the way, are you related to the person who shares your surname and also happens to be the major distributor of Viotto mouthpieces?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-02-08 16:20
I have tried Viotto bass clarinet mouthpieces on my French bass. I have no idea if they were French or German mouthpieces but I assume French, the person from Viotto just gave them to me to try. I thought they sounded great, had a really full tone, great response. I think some would call this tone "dark" (I wouldn't since we don't use this term in my langauge for tone). Nothing bad I can say about those mouthpieces. I guess I could say it reminded me slightly the tone that some German-type players have i.e. a tone that some players (not necessarily German) have that I associate with some German players I remember. Definitely very good. However I prefer a very different tone so I didn't like them and didn't buy one.
Post Edited (2010-02-09 02:47)
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-02-08 17:15
Oddly enough, there are two very fine pro players in NZ who play Buffet clarinets with Wurlitzer Reform Boehm mouthpieces (and German reeds), and who sound fabulous- with impeccable intonation. In theory it shouldn't work but somehow it does. Talent.
dn
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-08 18:21
"In theory it shouldn't work but somehow it does."
A Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm mouthpiece is wider than the barrel of a Buffet, so for a start these players will have either had to have had the mouthpiece or their barrels adapted to even get the thing to fit onto their instruments. If the overall inside volume of the mouthpiece is consistent with a French mouthpiece then in theory it will work too. The results (if this is really what they have done) would be interesting to hear.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-08 18:34
"Expect the unexpected".
I have been getting better results on my F. Arthur Uebel Oehler-system bass clarinet using bored-out French alto clarinet mouthpieces, than with the purpose-made Uebel mouthpiece that came with the instrument.
Not sure what point I'm trying to make, other than perhaps that experimentation unfettered by prior assumptions sometimes results in better performance than thoughtful design?
Gosh, that was a hard sentence to write.
Here's how Yahoo Babelfish translated it into German:
"Nicht sure welcher Punkt I' m, das versucht, anders als möglicherweise dieses Experimentieren zu bilden ungezwungen ist durch vorherige Annahmen ergibt manchmal, bessere Leistung als durchdachter Entwurf?"
Liquorice, Ben, any other Deutsche-speakers out there, please tell just how bad the machine translation is! I'm curious (sorry, off-topic).
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-08 18:38
Oh, and I forgot to mention that they would also have to shorten either the mouthpiece or their barrels in order to get the mouthpiece to play up to pitch. But hey, if that's the sound you're after then why not? Somehow I doubt Paul would want to do all of this to his new instruments in order to play on the mouthpiece that Mr Bartmann recommended though...
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-02-08 23:52
I have owned 3 Wurlitzer RB mouthpieces, one of which now is with a player in Chicago who sometimes frequents this board. Each of them fitted easily into the socket of a standard Buffet barrel and played (for me) "more or less in tune" with a standard 66mm barrel. I didn't measure the bore, but don't recall a significant difference at the tenon (this doesn't mean that the total "volume" of the mouthpiece was the same as for a french style mouthpiece, only that the difference is not as radical as supposed above).
Of course, these were the "Reform Boehm" mouthpieces supplied by Wurlitzer and were different from a standard "German mouthpiece". I own several fine examples of those, they are not at all compatible with french system clarinets, the intonation being ridiculously off due to bore differences etc.... and, as Liqourice suggests, they often don't always fit a french barrel tenon (though one example- a very old Wurlitzer- does????).
I personally chose not to adopt this set up, and like Liqourice did not expect it to work at all. However my observations above are true and accurate. The players i mentioned are Australians working in NZ and play to the highest international standard.
dn
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2010-02-09 00:31
This is off subject but, I REALLY like the looks of the Schwenk and Seggelke Bass Clarinet. Me being from Germany, I do plan on moving back one day for a couple of years at least. That being said, even if I do plan on staying in the states, would it be beneficial to learn the German key system, so I could play their bass clarinet or should I just wait and see if a Boehm system is coming out? Ive always thought it would be nice to learn the German system anyway.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-09 02:09
I, too, find the S&S bass clarinet interesting. According to their web site, it seems to be a hybrid of the German and Boehm system: German for the RH pinky and Boehm for the left hand. And I can't quite figure out the thumb keys: it looks like there are two register keys, yet they refer to an "automatic" system. Does anyone have more details?
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-09 03:07
Yeah, I don't think I need to change mouthpieces right now. I need to learn how to play these clarinets. I'm really perfectly happy with my current setup.
Besides, I've been a Clark Fobes customer for the last five years and I don't think I'll be switching to another mouthpiece manufacturer any time soon. There's something to be said for living five minutes away from my mouthpiece guy....
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-09 06:03
Donald- that's weird. I own 5 Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm (2 M4, 1 B2, 1 D4 and 1 K3) mouthpieces, as well as 2 Viotto Reform-Boehm mouthpieces (facings G3 and N1+2). The mouthpiece tenons on all of these are wider than the French, and don't fit onto a Buffet barrel. I actually had one Buffet barrel adapted to fit these mouthpieces just for fun. As I said, the results weren't great.
Wurlitzer also gave me a barrel that is made to fit French mouthpieces onto a German bore. The results were far less satisfactory (sound and intonation) than using a German mouthpiece on these instruments. Wurlitzer now also sell a mouthpiece with German bore that is made to be played with French reeds. This works quite well.
I've even played on a Viotto mouthpiece using a German facing (N1+2) on a French Zinner blank. Somehow the sound was a lot more restricted than using the same facing on a German mouthpiece and bore.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-02-09 07:28
Very odd about the mouthpiece tenons etc.
I have no idea why we would have such a different experience- the mouthpieces the NZSO/APO players use are from the last 10 years, purchased from Europe (possibly direct from Wurlitzer). My three all came with a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinet from the early 1970s, but had been matched with this clarinet when it was overhauled by Wurlitzer in the 1980s. They seemed to be the same specs as the later ones, and all fitted Buffet barrels with no problems.
In fact, my ex used one with her R13 (standard Backun Barrel) for a couple of weeks before deciding to switch back to "french setup". I know a couple of Phil Greens students (at NZSM) have also used this set up, and I'm fairly certain no one has needed to have a barrel tenon reamed etc...
dn
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2010-02-09 12:55
@David, just to satisfy your curiosity:
David wrote:
"Here's how Yahoo Babelfish translated it into German:"
"Nicht sure welcher Punkt I' m, das versucht, anders als möglicherweise
dieses Experimentieren zu bilden ungezwungen ist durch vorherige
Annahmen ergibt manchmal, bessere Leistung als durchdachter Entwurf?"
"Liquorice, Ben, any other Deutsche-speakers out there, please tell just
how bad the machine translation is! I'm curious (sorry, off-topic)."
Hmm, I'd say pretty garbled, except maybe for the last part. When I translate it back (putting German words where Babelfish left English words in), it comes out pretty confusing (note the funny punctuation):
Not sicher which point ich m, that tries, other than possibly to form this experimentation is unconstrained by previous assumptions results sometimes, in a better achievement than a thought-through concept.
P.S.: If any of you wants to come over and visit S&S, note that they are in Bamberg (not Bamburg, which sounds similar but might have been confused with Hamburg)
Post Edited (2010-02-09 12:58)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-09 14:07
As for Wurlitzer, my experience circa 1984 made horns was a substantially larger tenon for the mouthpieces.
Are we all talking about HERBERT WURLITZER of Neustadt an der Aisch?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-02-09 14:49
Paul,
And have you also been trying alternate altissimo fingerings? Or have you been sticking with the ones that worked with your old Buffet R13's.
Good luck with your new horns.
Bartmann
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-09 16:46
For the most part I've been using the same altissimo fingerings as my Buffet, with a few exceptions.
D seems to want me to use both LH 1st finger half holed, and RH Eb. My buffet didn't want that. C# also wants the RH Eb but doesn't want the half hole.
Everything above that is exactly the same.
The weird part is the throat tones. They just don't need or want long elaborate resonance fingerings. As soon as I drop a lot of fingers onto an A in the staff, the pitch goes out the window... the frankly it doesn't seem to improve the tone. Like I said earlier, this process of learning the new horns is going to take me a little while. Part of it is learning to trust the instrument. I absolutely did not trust my Buffets and that's translating into difficulties with the S&S horns.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-09 16:54
Hey Paul,
How about OPEN D.........all fingers off? Or 2,3 of LH and just 1 of RH?
Also a C# I use alot is just like C only adding the last two sidekeys (can be used for C# tonalities Db and other tougher keys).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-21 15:00
Thanks for the updates!
I have a few questions about the clarinets.
The barrels look really beautiful, but what is the reason for putting a metal ring on the bottom only?
The bell also looks beautiful.
How is the mechanism between the top and bottom half (the name escapes me). I hate this connection on most clarinets. Is it very sensitive like on most Buffets? Does the 1+1 Bb come out comfortably, and solidly?
How is the scale, not from tuning, but clarity of tone? Are there particularly stuff notes? How is pinch Bb? How is Low E?
How is the wood on the instruments. One thing I really admire about Wurlizters, is that the wood always seems so compact, and dense. Buffet seems to use more porous wood, with much thicker grain. I would like to know your thoughts on this.
On to tuning:
Some things on your chart worry me a little bit (this is, having never made a tuning chart for my buffet clarinets)
8+ sounds like a lot for low A, Bb, and B
-10 for normal chalameau F# also sounds pretty bad.
The clarion looks like it's really unreliable from tuning, changing quite a lot from note to note, while the altissimo looks surprisingly stable.
Can you say why you decided to go for the french model, rather than a german bore? What do you prefer about the french model?
I do love the idea of a wrap around register though!
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-21 15:29
The bridge key is quite stable and it doesn't seem to screw up the pad heights if it isn't aligned perfectly. Fortunately, the tenon is fit so well to the socket that the clarinet is quite easy to adjust.
In terms of response and clarity, I've not found a better clarinet - for me. 1/1 Bb is just as clear as side or pinched Bb - and as you can see from the chart, they're very close in terms of pitch.
As far as the overall sharpness of the instrument, I'm still finding that as my ears improve, the pitch is settling down. There are no clarinets that will have ±0 throughout the instrument. I believe the reason for the slight sharpness in the middle of the Chalameau is because low E and F are in tune.
Three potential problems with this tuning chart. First of all, I think the instrument probably tunes closer to A-441 and my tuner was set to 440. Second, I had all joints pushed in all the way and wasn't making any adjustments to my voicings. Third, I'm not sure that that the little microphone on my tuner is very good; I need to get a contact mic and try this again, maybe with the longer barrel.
Also, +8 is very easily managable. I'm not doing it on this chart, but in many cases I'll drop a key or two to make slight intonation adjustments. It's better than voicing things downward. It's when you get into the +15 to +20 range that you'll start having problems adjusting. Take a look at your Clarion D for a good example of a note that is typically very sharp on Buffets...
I guess what I should do is a thorough comparison chart between both the S&S instruments and my Buffets.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-21 20:53
Sorry I wasn't able to get to all of your questions earlier, I had to get warmed up for a lesson. So...
"The barrels look really beautiful, but what is the reason for putting a metal ring on the bottom only?"
According to S&S, the metal ring on the bottom of the barrel is to create greater acoustical impedance at that spot in the instrument. I haven't gone and done any measurements, but here's my speculation on this:
SPECULATION ALERT: The point immediately above the tenon shoulder (where the barrel interfaces with the upper joint) may be a second choke point in the polycylindrical bore profile. I think the idea here is to improve the throat tones as well as the function of the register key but it won't work if there's too much vibration in the material of the instrument at this point. So they put the metal ring there to help dampen any vibrations that propagate through the wood at this area.
I'll have to email Jochen about it later on... I'm building a list of questions for him regarding the design of the instrument, so hopefully I'll be able to get some sort of confirmation on this soon.
"How is the scale, not from tuning, but clarity of tone? Are there particularly stuff notes? How is pinch Bb? How is Low E?"
I've not found many particularly stuffy notes. 100/100 chalameau Eb is not a good note at all on these instruments (I mean, it really sounds terribly out of tune and just plain bad), but don't think I've ever used that fingering in any real musical situations. However, the corresponding clarion Bb is the best I've ever seen. Go figure. Low E is very rich, responsive, clear, and in tune.
"How is the wood on the instruments. One thing I really admire about Wurlizters, is that the wood always seems so compact, and dense. Buffet seems to use more porous wood, with much thicker grain. I would like to know your thoughts on this."
The wood seems to be of a very high quality, although these instruments are noticeably lighter than my Buffets. S&S use a billet that decreases in density from top to bottom - they say it improves uniformity of sound throughout the instrument, and it helps with response. It's unstained and quite beautiful to look at, not nearly as porus as my Buffet instruments, and it appears to be quite stable out of the box - although you should definitely go through a break-in process just to be sure. I haven't noticed any changes in the fundamental pitch of the instrument over the month that I've been playing them, so I don't think the wood is moving around very much. This is probably a result of S&S building up the final dimensions of the bore over time rather than cutting to the final specs in one shot.... and I'm sure that this wood has been aged for quite a while before they began cutting on it. I get the feeling that wood selection is quite important for S&S.
"On to tuning:
Some things on your chart worry me a little bit (this is, having never made a tuning chart for my buffet clarinets)
8+ sounds like a lot for low A, Bb, and B
-10 for normal chalameau F# also sounds pretty bad.
The clarion looks like it's really unreliable from tuning, changing quite a lot from note to note, while the altissimo looks surprisingly stable."
The altissimo is indeed surprisingly stable once you find good fingerings. Part of my reasoning behind doing this chart was to find those good fingerings that really let the instrument do all the work. Remember also that I'm coming from a set of badly tuned Buffet instruments, so I'm still working on figuring out these instruments. A touch of sharpness in the clarion is not too bad, really, and +8 is definitely easy to voice down (basically by relaxing) without a negative impact on the sound of the instrument. In fact, I'm finding that I'm having to make a few embouchure adjustments to let the instrument find its voice - and when really let the clarinet do all the work, it plays closer to center than this tuning chart indicates. I have had to deliberately de-tune notes in rehearsals to match the pitch tendencies of Buffet instruments, and this horn responds very well to adjustments either from voicing or added venting/resonance.
"Can you say why you decided to go for the french model, rather than a german bore? What do you prefer about the french model?"
There were a couple reasons. One, I wanted to have something that was close to what I'd been playing on for my whole career. I could have gone with the Reform Boehm instrument but it would have required a mouthpiece change as well as a much longer period of adjustment to learn... Also, the RB instrument is much more expensive and would take much longer (8 months as opposed to 3 months) for S&S to build, as it is a much more complicated mechanism and requires more cutting on the wood. Third, the German bore instruments I have played have had a beautiful sound, very stable and dense, but they just lacked the flexibility and color pallette that French instruments have had, and they did have some fairly significant intonation problems that could be difficult to deal with.
Now, Jochen and co. are very, very good about getting pitch to a high standard in their instruments, however, it would have been a complete change away from what I've been working with over the last 20 years of playing. I figured it would be a good idea to just get the highest quality and customized French bore instrument I could find - and S&S fit the bill perfectly.
"I do love the idea of a wrap around register though!"
It's one of the best things about this instrument. Putting the register tube outside the horn and the wrap around register key is something Buffet should have done YEARS ago. I've had no water problems in the register key (actually no water problems at all), and because of the material of the register chimney, the instruments warm up to pitch faster and stay that way for longer. It is a bit more fragile but I'm not doing a bunch of snap and pop marching band stuff - so it's not an issue.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-21 22:49
"Putting the register tube outside the horn and the wrap around register key is something Buffet should have done YEARS ago. I've had no water problems in the register key"
How many times have I had problems with water in my register hole on my Buffets in the last 10 years? Maybe 3? Far more common is water in the Eb, Db, throat A and Ab holes (which lie on the side or top of the instrument). Is water in the register key a problem that other players experience a lot of?
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-02-22 00:13
I've never ever had water problem on my register key on all my clarinets Yamaha plastic and Buffets wooden and plastic ones and I have been playing for 15 years.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-22 01:21
Eh, I've had the problem enough times that I'm just glad it's not an issue.
Post Edited (2010-02-22 01:21)
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-02-22 16:02
Paul,
Thank you for your answer to the reason why you chose a French bore rather than a German bore. Given that you've moved away from the world of French clarinets, you already have to invest considerable time unlearning resonance fingerings, and exploring and learning altissimo fingerings. So I understand how a German bore you would demand even more time exploring and then learning new fingerings.
It is wonderful that you could take such a risk and break away from French made clarinets. Good luck and I know you will be satisfied for the rest of your clarinet playing years.
Bartmann
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The Clarinet Pages
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