 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-01-27 22:35
I'm performing the Mozart Clarinet Concerto in A Major for solo and ensemble. I can't change back cause it's too late to now.
I just checked the PML, and it says it must be performed on Bb clarinet.
That's not cool. At least let me perform it on the instrument it was intended to be played on, which is a clarinet in A.
Think I could get away with performing it on A anyways?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-01-27 23:02
If I were you, I would just not mention anything and play it on A. They shouldn't care, and they may not even notice.
The only person that will definitely notice is the pianist if you play it on Bb, they have to "relearn" the part if they've been used to playing the real version.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-01-27 23:15
I should think you'll be fine to play it on the A. Are you doing it with chamber orchestra? If so there is not a printed version ad s far as I'm aware for clarinet in Bb. Btw, it was intended for basset clarinet in A :-)
Peter Cigleris
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-01-28 00:09
Paul is probably right, that the judges do have the right to throw you out. As with most UIL rules, as well as the PML list ranking system for pieces, it makes little sense.
When I played it at UIL in Texas I played it on Bb because I didn't have an A clarinet at the time.
Anyone who knows anything about the clarinet knows that on Bb, basically every note is wrong. Not to say people can't play it on Bb if they want to, but many teachers don't let students play the concerto until they are midway through their undergraduate study.
PML rating systems seem to rate things only on technical difficulty, disregarding most any other factor. If memory serves me, the Brahms sonatas are a II in the PML system? Paul can probably confirm or deny that. Either way, there are many pieces in the class 1 list that shouldn't be done by 99\100 high school students, and many pieces in class two that should be class one!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-01-28 00:41
NBeaty wrote:
> Anyone who knows anything about the clarinet knows that on Bb,
> basically every note is wrong.
pewd said :
> 'must transpose for Bb Clarinet'
which of course means that the notes are correct, but you're playing a half tone lower than written - you have to transpose the A clarinet part to Bb. The ensemble is playing as if you're playing the 'A' clarinet.
Why they make this silly requirement is beyond me ... I would understand it much better if it said ' may be played on A or Bb clarinet, with the requirement that the Bb clarinet transpose' - that way people without an A clarinet could still compete.
But maybe not so silly - it puts everyone at the same disadvantage - all will suffer equally.
Maybe choosing the Mozart Concerto was the silliest thing they actually did ...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-28 03:32
That's hard to believe, requiring everyone to play a piece written for the A clarinet on a Bb clarinet, especially one as famous as the Mozart. They must have their brains up there, well I can't say where. If that's the requirement than I have to agree with Mark, everyone is at the same disadvantage, especially the judges. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Keith P
Date: 2010-01-28 04:01
In my years competing in the UIL contest, I found most judges on the first round to be very lenient on the repertoire. The way it is worded is not what it means; they want you to play it on Bb clarinet, playing off the A clarinet part for all they care; I've known people who have done the Mozart for UIL. You should be fine playing it on A clarinet because more likely than not they won't have the PML sitting right there or even really care what the PML exactly says.
A few years ago I played Weber Concertino, but I used my own edition not listed on the PML (Baermann) and the judges had no problem with it. My experience has been that if you play well and memorized with a good solo, they'll advance you.
Hope this helps!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2010-01-28 08:09
Looking at the UIL website I'm wondering if "must transpose for Bb clarinet" is simply an insistence that the piece be played in A. I don't read it as necessarily a demand to PERFORM it on Bb.
Or maybe it's a warning that a different accompaniment is needed if Bb clarinet is used. They have contact info on that page. I'd call them up before learning the first movement with 5 sharps.
Allen Cole
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-01-28 10:44
I don't think they could enforce that rule since it could just as easily mean that the piano accompaniment was transposed as that the clarinet part was transposed. But the contestant ought to clarify it with them rather than just take a flier.
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2010-01-28 16:27
I'll be intrested to read a clarification about this. Not to defend UIL by any means, but it occurs to me that their motivation might simply be to keep the field level for those who don't have access to an A instrument.
I've certainly seen piano accompaniments transposed so that a Bb clarinet can play the standard sheet scored in A...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-28 17:13
Philcoman wrote:
> I've certainly seen piano accompaniments transposed so that a
> Bb clarinet can play the standard sheet scored in A...
And UIL definitely lets you do that. Mozart's Concerto is listed in twice in the prescribed music list, once as "Concerto in Bb" and again as "Concerto in A Major."
https://www.utexas.edu/uil/pml/catalog/browse/catalog_id/1/op_event/mat/event/8/acapella/1/accomp/1/op_composer/inc/composer/mozart
If you play "Concerto in Bb" you play the same part as the A clarinet normally would, and the piano part is transposed in Bb.
If you play "Concerto in A Major," you play everything in the original key.
Knowing that they let you play the thing in the key of concert Bb Major to avoid the gross key signature associated with transposing the clarinet part, I'd be inclined to read the "must be transposed for Bb clarinet" line to mean that IF you play the piece in concert A Major on the Bb clarinet, you'll have to transpose the part. I don't think it means you can't play the piece on an A clarinet. They're probably assuming that most students do not possess an A clarinet (which was certainly true when I played for UIL years ago).
HOWEVER, Paul teaches JH and HS students, and I don't, so he may be writing from his own experience as a private teacher dealing with this issue. TAKE WHAT HE SAYS SERIOUSLY--DO NOT IGNORE HIS ADVICE. If he's had run-ins with the powers that be in the past over this, the safest and most sensible thing to do (IMHO) would be to play the piece on Bb with piano part transposed to fit you (i.e., "Concerto in Bb"). In my experience, local UIL event sponsors can be very unforgiving--after all, their schools are basically in competition with yours for the number of medals their students take home.
In any case, though, I would contact the UIL and ask them for clarification (I had to do this once or twice on other matters when I was in high school--the UIL people in Austin are quite pleasant to deal with [or at least they were when I dealt with them]). Be sure to ask them to send you a written letter confirming what they told you, just in case you run into any problems with the judges at the contest. I think they are acutally obligated under UIL rules to issue a written interpretation or clarification of their rules/regulations if you request it. At any rate, I know they'll do that if you want them to.
Also, since it looks like they're about to put out a new solo list next year, it would be a good idea to let them know that they're current list contains some ambiguous language, so they can fix it for next year.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-01-29 00:02
there is no event code for an A clarinet solo.
event code 207 is for Bb clarinet solo
http://www.utexas.edu/uil/pml/browse
You may play a solo on Eb, Bb, Alto, Bass, Contra-Alto or Contra-Bass
You may play any solo from the Bb soprano list on a Bb Bass clarinet.
You may play any solo from the Bass clarinet list on Bb Contra. You may play any alto clarinet solo on the Eb contra.
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Several solos are considered masterworks and may be played with music
(Brahms sonatas (play all movements) ; Hindemith Sonata (play all), a few others)
http://uil.utexas.edu/music/NoMemoryIndex.html
All other solos : to make the state solo and ensemble contest you must:
1. play a class 1 solo
2. perform by memory at regional
3. receive a '1' at regional
If you receive a '1' on a class 1 solo, but use your music, you do not advance to state
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Accompaniment question -
Yes, of course, you must perform with accompaniment.
Unless the piece is specifically written for un-accompanied clarinet. The Frackenpohl Suite for Solo Clarinet is one example, the Osborne Rhapsody is another, as is Stravinsky's Three Pieces. I think that is all of the exceptions to the memory requirement.
They do allow electronic and recorded accompaniment. E.G., smart music is valid.
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Mike -
they tweak the list every 4 years, revisions to the clarinet solos are infrequent, and usually minor. 4 years ago the 2nd movement of the mozart changed from class 2 to class 1. other than that, changes were minor.
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Brahms question -
depends on which movement you select
the 1st sonata, movement 1 is a class one, movement 2 or 3 alone is a class 2. selecting 2 movements from 2,3,4 makes it a class 1.
the 2nd sonata, movements 1 and 3 are class 1, movement 2 is a class 2
http://www.utexas.edu/uil/pml/catalog/browse/catalog_id/1/op_event/mat/event/8/acapella/1/accomp/1/op_composer/inc/composer/brahms
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They can and do grant exceptions. One should contact the UIL folks before learning a solo to get any necessary waivers. One should also discuss it with your private teacher and your band director prior to deciding on which solo to perform. The band director should be the first point of contact.
They can and do disqualify students for breaking the rules. It depends on the judge and the region, and the nature of the infraction. They are far more strict on rules at the state level than at the regional level. But I have seen students DQ'd at regionals.
Again, what I think of the rules is irrelevant.
Life has rules, one needs to deal with them.
UIL is not the only contest available to students in this state.
We dropped out of UIL S&E where I teach and run our own, internal contest. I can send a student on whatever solo I feel is appropriate, I can put in cuts, pick different publishers, etc. Much better this way.
hope that helps,
regards,
Paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2010-01-29 00:03)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-01-29 02:31
In 1999, I played the third movement of the concerto on Bb clarinet with accompaniment (starting on written E).
In 2003 I played the First movement of the concerto on Bb Clarinet, starting on written G.
Neither time did anyone care. I would give anyone an honorary 1 for making it through the concerto reasonably well transposing half a step down.
Solo and ensemble rules are sporadically enforced, as noted above. As long as you have the measures numbered, they usually seem happy enough!
I had friends get by without original copies of their music. Just depends on the judge. No one in University (that I'm aware of) would be required to transpose half a step lower if they did not have an A clarinet.
Everything is bigger in Texas, including the mistakes.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-29 03:40
NBeaty wrote:
> In 1999, I played the third movement of the concerto on Bb
> clarinet with accompaniment (starting on written E).
>
> In 2003 I played the First movement of the concerto on Bb
> Clarinet, starting on written G.
>
> Neither time did anyone care.
As I said, the PML explicitly says you can do that (as it did back in the dark ages when I was in high school). You don't have to transpose anything to play Mozart on the Bb--just make sure your piano part is in the right key.
The only issue here is whether you can use an A clarinet or not.
If you don't have written confirmation from UIL that you can play it on A clarinet, it's not worth risking disqualification by playing it on the A--just play it on the Bb instead.
Even if many judges are pretty lenient, you never know when you're going to run into a stickler. Also, even if the people who wrote the PML meant one thing, it's what the local people running the contest say that goes (unless you can get the Austin people to give you a witten opinion to the contrary)
I'd also like to point out that the rules appear to have become more rigid in recent years. For instance, when I was in high school (about 20 years ago), you didn't have to play your solo from memory at the regional level to qualify for state; you only had to play from memory at the state contest itself.
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2010-01-29 17:41
I'm going to chime in on the way I interpret "must transpose for Bb clarinet." I think, as I believe a poster above me does, that that means that if you're playing it on Bb, you must transpose it, not have the accompaniment transposed.
What if it said "For Bb, must transpose"? Would that change the meaning? I think it's just an interpretation of the ambiguous English language that should be clarified by the people who wrote that little specification.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-01-29 22:07
What an unnecessarily convoluded system this seems to be! Were it me, I'd play it on my A, and let what happens happens.
Small potatoes, life is too short, etc.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2010-02-01 03:57
Maybe you can contact someone for clarification? The instructions seem a bit ambiguous. Tell them you want to play it on A, and just make sure your accompaniment plays it in the same key you do.
Lori
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-01 12:07
>>Maybe you can contact someone for clarification? The instructions seem a bit ambiguous.>>
Yes! Can't hurt to ask. You might find out that the rule is really an obedience test: the organizers want to eliminate lots of people quickly by asking competitors to prove they can follow the rules whether they make sense or not, play the piece on the wrong instrument and play it in a more challenging key. (Please don't ask me to defend the logic. I'm just saying....)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-01 13:39
It turns out one of the members of the committee that is in charge of developing the UIL list is from my hometown (band director at one of the JHs that feeds into my old high school). I popped him an e-mail to let him know about this issue (and the similar issues with Stravinsky's Three Pieces and Schumann's Fantasy Pieces, which really ought to be played on A clarinet, too.)
In addition to asking for clarification, I suggested they revise the list to make it clearer what students may or may not do.
He forwarded my message to the director of the UIL music division, so hopefully we'll get an answer soon.
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