 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-01-22 02:09
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My 1995 greenline RC prestige + Tosca (the opera) fast clarinet change practice = disaster...
Do you know if this is fixable? How do I get the orphan tenon out?
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2010-01-22 02:37)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2010-01-22 02:22
This is repairable. Don't try to get the broken piece out-take it to your instument repair technician. There are special cements that can make this good as new.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-22 03:17
Good advise, take it to a GOOD tech, someone that has more experience than just putting new pads on. They can take that out for you and build you a new tendon. You might have to send it out if there's no one in driving distance that can do it. You live in MA, I'm sure there's someone in Boston if not closer to you. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2010-01-22 03:25
Well, I guess this is another reason why Buffet should get its act together and get rid of the metal tenon caps...
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Author: ISM
Date: 2010-01-22 03:55
S.H.J.,
What is wrong with metal tenon caps? I am far from an expert, but it is my belief that these are useful and help to prevent cracks. Please enlighten us.
Imre
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-01-22 05:48
>> There are special cements that can make this good as new. <<
Some glues can pretty much weld the material back, but this really depends on the specific material and glue. Unless someone knows from real experience with this specific material I'd prefer a more certain method. I don't know if it's even possible with Greenline material.
Sylvain, some repairers might suggest to make a new tenon. This is an option but in this case I think it might be best to use a method that Gordon (who posts on this forum) came up with. It is gluing the tenon back with epoxy but also add stainless steel pins. This method is especially strong against twisting and bending forces which cause tenons to break. Though there are some stricky parts to using this method.
Of course first you have to remove the old one from the socket...
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-01-22 07:40
> Well, I guess this is another reason why Buffet should get its act together
> and get rid of the metal tenon caps...
S.H.J. - we're talking about a PLASTIC clarinet here, whether it's called Greenline or Resonite or Klingonite or Kryptonite.
So whatever Tom has to say re swelling and whatnot does not apply in that specific case.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-01-22 12:20
I am sorry to see that.
As far as repairs, I am not sure that would be the best answer. What about getting a new top joint? A good repair person would just have to take the keys from one clarinet to another. They would have to replace all the pads and adjust the keys, but I think this might be a better use of money.
Try to contact Windcraft in the UK- https://www.windcraft.co.uk/
email- info@windcraft.co.uk
I looked through their online catalog, you can search for the product numbers. Here is what I copied from their website catalog:
WBU1683 Top Joint - RC Prestige Bb £ 459.02
WBU1683-Old Top Joint - RC Prestige Bb - Old Model £ 130.00
WBU1684 Top Joint - RC Prestige A £ 492.46
WBU1684-Old Top Joint - RC Prestige A - Old Model £ 130.00
If you put in the product numbers in the search field, they will come out.
These look like regular wood joints, not Greeline, though. Maybe you can contact them about getting a GL joint.
Also, you should check with them about which year is "Old Model"
As for repair...
From my repair experience, I don't think that it can be securely and reliably glued back. A good strong alternative is to have a new tenon made from plastic, and have it made *longer* than the tenon. Then drill out the bottom of the top joint about 1 inch deep and glue the new tenon into the joint. Then have the tone holes and the bore recut in this area. It is a lot of work, money, and I would bet a lot that the playing of the instrument would also noticeably change.
I would personally opt for the new top joint.
Post Edited (2010-01-22 12:43)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-01-22 12:49
Skygardener wrote:
>> From my repair experience, I don't think that
>> it can be securely and reliably glued back.
Do you have experience with the method I described above, gluing with slow epoxy and adding stainless steel reinforcement pins? Of course the specifics of how this is done are important.
>> A good strong alternative is to have a new tenon made
>> from plastic, and have it made *longer* than the tenon.
That's what I meant by "make a new tenon". It's possible that a plastic material is stronger than the Greenline. Still it would only be as strong as the plastic. I think gluing with reinforcment pins is even stronger and possibly the strongest of all methods. Seperately from that, it's also less risky and possibly faster and (significantly) less expensive. Many advantages without any compromises.
>> I would bet a lot that the playing of the
>> instrument would also noticeably change.
Possibly, but changing the joint is likely to change the clarinet the most, especailly considering how they are made. Gluing back the old tenon (with pins) most likely won't change anything or at least the least of all options.
Post Edited (2010-01-22 12:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-22 14:23
I believe Buffet offers a Five-Year parts warranty as long as you have a receipt (and you purchased Feb of 95 on.....of course.)
Same thing happened to me and WWBW replaced the top joint to include the repadding free of charge courtesy of Buffet.
Don't let your Greenline topple over, or this could happen to YOU!!!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-01-22 14:55
Nitai,
No, I have never done it. I actually ave never even seen a broken joint like this. I have only heard of it. However, with the experience I DO have, I think a new tenon would be stronger because you can make it L O N G which gives more strength.
I think part of the problem is that the way the original tenon is cut actually creates a weak point at the shoulder. This doesn't happen with normal wood because the fibers are running lengthwise.
Yes, the playability of the instrument with a new joint will change. It is truly 50% a new clarinet. That is certain, but I am not sure I would feel safe with a reinforced tenon with steel pins as you describe. Not that it is a bad idea, but the tenon is not that thick and the pins will make it thinner and weaker. It might break at another place that is now thin. But on the good side, you keep the bore very close to the way it was.
For structure, making a new tenon would be best, but for sound then putting the old tenon back would be best.
There is no great answer here, sadly.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-01-22 15:09
I agree with Nitai that the "Gordon (NZ)" method of a replacement tenon that is glued and pinned in, is the best method. A good material for the replacement tenon is acetal resin (trade name Delrin) -- very tough material and compatible with wood. I would use a high-strength adhesive which is formulated to bond to plastics, there are a few good brands of those. I've done a couple of bass clarinet tenon replacements this way.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-01-22 15:42
Thanks for all the suggestions, I hadn't though about gettting a new top joint. I need to mull over what to do.
I need a clarinet spare *now* and then decide what to do with the broken one. Either glue it or get a new top joint or get a new clarinet.
I'll keep you posted.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-22 16:07
Gee, I wish someone like Dr. Henderson would chime in here. I am led to believe that the nature of this epoxy/wood-dust material makes it IMPOSSIBLE to mend. It is also MUCH more difficult to machine/drill because it is much harder (and obviously more brittle).
The beauty of the material is that there is a great deal of constancy from one horn to another so replacing the joint is not nearly the same issue as it is for wood................research this fast, before you are out of the Warranty period.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-01-22 16:30
I purchased a resin clarinet with a broken tenon from that auction site just so that I could try to repair it. I used fiberglass resin with black pigment for glue and pinned it parallel to the bore. The repair turned out very well. With the black pigment in the fiberglass resin and filling behind the pins, the repair is almost invisible. In addition, it seems to be quite strong. Absent major excessive force, I have not been able to get the repair to show any weakness. The hardest part of the repair was waiting for the fiberglass resin to set. There was a very small amount of clean-up required along the glue line inside the bore.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-01-22 16:34
Sylvain-
This is a known problem with the Green Line, and it happend alot with the first modles, like your 95 clarinet (I think that they started to market the Greenline in 94). I think that you should contact the factory
and see if they are willing to fix it or give you a new joint.
Sarah
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-01-22 16:36
Check out Meridian Winds on Facebook and see how Eric Satterlee has done some of these repairs. He's really good. Check out the pictures of some of his lathe work. He is also a Buffet dealer.
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2010-01-22 16:37
<<we're talking about a PLASTIC clarinet here, whether it's called Greenline or Resonite or Klingonite or Kryptonite.
So whatever Tom has to say re swelling and whatnot does not apply in that specific case.>>
(I cannot provide any pure scientific data for what I'm going to say, but I will state them anyway. Correct me if I am wrong)
Plastic and carbon fibre does expand and contract as well, just not as drastically as wood does. And contrary to Tom's explanation, metal too does expand and contract; it's just that the rate of expansion is different. But the difference in the rates are what's problematic.
In the case of the Greenline, the metal tenons will still expand and contract at a different rate than the carbon fibre, and therefore the same problems still apply, though I'm sure it would not be as noticeable.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-22 17:24
Metal tenon caps are not the cause of the middle tenon breaking off - not sure how you can attribute a broken tenon to metal tenon caps.
Tenons (and especially middle tenons) are the weakest part of any instrument and even more so with Greenline instruments due to the brittleness of the material.
The best thing that can be done with this kind of damage is have a top joint transplant whereby the existing keywork is tken from the broken top joint and fitted to a brand new top joint. I've done several of these on R13 Greenlines (WITHOUT metal tenon caps fitted - funny that!) - it's just a fact of life that a Greenline clarinet will break at its weakest point (which is the mid tenon) if it gets knocked or falls over.
What Buffet should do on Greenlines is reinforce the middle tenon with a metal sleeve in the bore - maybe that's a concept too controversial for some tastes.
Sylvian - contact your nearest repairer or Buffet agent to see if they can do a top joint transplant for you - if you're insured, this kind of accidental damage will be covered. Check the warranty on your Greenline as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TPeterson
Date: 2010-01-22 17:53
I'll second Hank's suggestion to contact Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds. He is an absolutely amazing craftsman. He replaced the bell tenon (granted, a far less critical place) on my Bb clarinet after I dropped the lower joint on a terazzo floor. The horn actually looked far better and stronger when he finished with it than when it was new!
Tim Peterson
Band Director & Clarinetist
Ionia, MI
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Author: susieray
Date: 2010-01-22 17:53
I second Hank's suggestion re Eric Satterlee...he did a tenon graft on
a clarinet of mine a couple of years ago and it turned out so well I could not even tell where the repair was! My instrument wasn't a Greenline though, but it's still worth checking into.
Sue
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2010-01-22 20:15
I just returned from getting a little work done on my Buffet Greenline and I told the repair tech (a clarinet player who only does woodwind repairs) about the tenon problem. He pulled a replacement tenon out of a drawer and said it was a relatively easy to put it on a clarinet. He also mentioned the alternative of getting a replacement upper joint and transferring your keys to it.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-01-23 02:05
Are Greenline models consistent enough so that a joint transplant will pose negligible effect on the response of the instrument in question? I am a bit curious to know if a replacement joint, if must be used, should go through a reaming process with the surviving joint before it is handed back to the player...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-01-23 06:06
OK...
Skygardener wote:
>> I think a new tenon would be stronger because you
>> can make it L O N G which gives more strength.
This sounds like you are talking about the strength of the glued joint. I agree that making the tenon longer so it is the material itself supporting the tenon step is better than simply gluing a tenon at the step. That is the standard method of replacing a tenon. But that's why the pins are critical. A new longer tenon would still be only as strong as the material. With a good plastic material maybe stronger than the Greenline material. But IMO gluing with pins is stronger.
>> I am not sure I would feel safe with a reinforced tenon
>> with steel pins as you describe. Not that it is a bad idea,
>> but the tenon is not that thick and the pins will make it
>> thinner and weaker.
There won't be any gaps since anything would be filled with epoxy, and the holes are only the least necessary wider than the pins. It's cirtical to make vent holes (which are also filled with epoxy) so the glue is not "sealed". IMO this doesn't make any part weaker. I guess it could break in another place, but this is not a bad thing. The step is where tenons usually break and this would make it overall significantly stronger and less likely to break at all. I'm imagining a plastic rod with a step compared with the same diameter plastic tube with a steel rod inside it completely glued (no gaps). The latter seems a lot stronger to me. I guess that also depends on the type of plastic, I have some tools made of Polyamide which is especailly strong but is it practical to use something like that? I also have no idea how it would glue.
David Spiegelthal wrote:
>> I agree with Nitai that the "Gordon (NZ)" method of a replacement
>> tenon that is glued and pinned in, is the best method. A good material
>> for the replacement tenon is acetal resin (trade name Delrin) -- very
>> tough material and compatible with wood.
It is usual to re-use the tenon instead of making a replacment tenon as long as the tenon is not too damaged. Also I'm not sure about Delrin. I know it is conisdered a non-gluable plastic. Not that it can't be glued, but less secure and it is preferable to use something else I think. I was told this by a former clarinet player and repairer, now maker of specialist instrument repair tools (one of the major makers and suppliers of woodwind repair tools in USA). Also glues are usually to specific plastics and not knowing the specific glue that is best to use on a specific material, I would prefer slow setting epoxy.
Chris P wrote:
>> The best thing that can be done with this kind of damage is have a top
>> joint transplant... I've done several of these on R13 Greenlines
Why is this the best? It sounds like the Greenline is more likely to break there. Transplanting all the keys to a new joint is by far the most work, most expensive and slowest method of all options and at the end it would be just as weak as it was before it broke. This in addition to it likely changing how the clarinet plays the most, possibly very significantly. This seems like a last resort option in case others are impossible for some reason.
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> The beauty of the material is that there is a great deal of
>> constancy from one horn to another so replacing the joint
>> is not nearly the same issue as it is for wood... research
>> this fast, before you are out of the Warranty period.
A very big part of the difference is because of how the bore is made. Even if they use different tools for the Greenlines, I doubt they changed the method.. but maybe?
Sylvain wrote:
>> I need a clarinet spare *now*
With the pinning method and possibly making a new tenon, it can probably be ready to play the next day. With a new joint... who knows how long it can take.
Re Eric Satterlee that was mentioned, I know just a bit from a repair forum but my impression is that he is a very good repairer. Many other repairers send him broken clarinets to repair. I think he will suggest a new tenon for this.
Post Edited (2010-01-23 10:32)
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-01-23 07:54
A student of mine recently had the bell tenon shatter on his Leblanc Concerto. Gordon (NZ) was able to glue back several significant pieces of wood, reinforced with steel pins, and have the whole thing ready for performance within 24 hours. The resulting work was impeccable, and left no cosmetic evidence (only the most meticulous inspection would reveal that the joint had been repaired.
This was of a course a different (and probably simpler- certainly the joint need not be as strong on the bell tenon) repair to that required above, but illustrates that such work need not take a long time.
dn
btw- the Concerto mentioned above was Morrigans old clarinet, small world huh?
Post Edited (2010-01-23 07:56)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-01-23 15:18
"we're talking about a PLASTIC clarinet"
I think it's improper to consider the Greenline as being made from plastic. The Greenline is a composite non-metallic material and in that respect is related to the structure of a "fibreglas" reinforced boat hull. Both structures are known to crack.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-01-23 15:59
BobD wrote:
>> "we're talking about a PLASTIC clarinet"
>
> I think it's improper to consider the Greenline as being made
> from plastic. The Greenline is a composite non-metallic
> material and in that respect is related to the structure of a
> "fibreglas" reinforced boat hull. Both structures are known to
> crack.
Why should this be improper? It ain't wood, it ain't metal, hence it is "plastic" or a composite if you will. Doesn't make it any less susceptible to "tenon snapping", or any more susceptible to swelling as any other composite.
Okay, I shall say "composite" from now on. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-23 16:43
Improper because unlike mallable plastic, Greenline composite does not "mold" or melt like plastic and hence cannot be repaired using the same methods.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-23 16:44
Composite, reconstituted, reclaimed, recovered, ... take your pick - it's still brittle.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2010-01-23 21:06
Although more expensive, In the long run I would prefer the replacing upper joint and key transfer Idea.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-23 21:15
Not expensive if it can be done under warranty, though it could make your premium go up a bit if you have it done through your insurance company.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 12:23
Paul wrote;
"Gee, I wish someone like Dr. Henderson would chime in here. I am led to believe that the nature of this epoxy/wood-dust material makes it IMPOSSIBLE to mend. It is also MUCH more difficult to machine/drill because it is much harder (and obviously more brittle)...."
In my experience, epoxy drills very nicely. Grenadilla dust as a filler would not pose a problem.
Some timbers are far more abrasive to cutting edges than epoxy is. But I understand there is a small quantity of carbon fibre in the mix, which may make machining more difficult. Although judging from the reported experience of pinning the material by BartHx, this appears to not be a problem.
(Why doesn't Buffet lay strands of carbon fibre through this tenon shoulder, where it is needed?)
Post Edited (2010-01-24 12:23)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 12:24
S.H.J wrote re the tenon caps and what Tom Ridenou had to say, "...In the case of the Greenline, the metal tenons will still expand and contract at a different rate than the carbon fibre, and therefore the same problems still apply, though I'm sure it would not be as noticeable..."
1. "Carbon fibre"??? There's only a tiny amount of carbon fibre in the mix.
2. Just because a tube is restricted from expanding to larger OD, does not mean that it automatically shrinks in ID instead. Timber may be a special case, with its hollow grain structure, but Greenline material retains none of this property of timber.
"...Plastic and carbon fibre does expand and contract as well, just not as drastically as wood does. ..."
Most plastic moves more with temperature change than timber does with change of moisture content. I suspect Greenline does not change with moisture, because it is likely to be all but impervious to absorption. However I would expect it to move a little with temperature. I would also expect Buffet to have formulated the plastic to move as little as possible. (Expansion of the ABS of plastic bass clarinets is quite a problem because the distance between posts changes significantly with temperature.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 12:34
GorgeL wrote, "...I just returned from getting a little work done on my Buffet Greenline and I told the repair tech (a clarinet player who only does woodwind repairs) about the tenon problem. He pulled a replacement tenon out of a drawer and said it was a relatively easy to put it on a clarinet. ...."
But did he mentioned that this involved having to perfectly replicate the bore inside the new tenon, and to perfectly reproduce the low half of tone holes involved, including any undercutting of these tone hole. The undercutting of a top model clarinet may well be hand done to a degree, by a rare expert in such voicing issues. I would say that it is relatively easy to alter some of these vital parameters during this repair method. I have done it several times, but I do wonder about it, and every time, hope I have not made a small change that the player sees as detrimental.
An advantage of the gluing-with-pinning method is that no design parameters are altered or need to be reproduced.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-01-24 12:36
> Expansion of the ABS of plastic bass clarinets is quite a problem because
> the distance between posts changes significantly with temperature.
OH YES. Especially when it's freezing cold outside, keys can start binding. (and it's not only basses, an Alto is already past the critical length)
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 12:39
Franklin wrote: "Are Greenline models consistent enough so that a joint transplant will pose negligible effect on the response of the instrument in question? I am a bit curious to know if a replacement joint, if must be used, should go through a reaming process with the surviving joint before it is handed back to the player..."
A (YouTube?) video shows the reaming process. It is not done with both joints together. It also looks quite rough in that there seems to be no stop provided for how far the reamer enters. Perhaps this is intentional, so that there is variation between individual clarinets, which is what enables buyers to pick and choose what believe suits them.
BTW, how do I use the "Quote" facility?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 13:01
There has been mention of the "Gordon (NZ) method" pinning method for dealing with this type of broken tenon problem.
First, the broken-off tenon is very easy to remove with a suitable hooking tool... a sort of crochet hook concept, but shaped very differently, to hook behind the end of the tenon.
(The tenon could also be grabbed with an expanding tool, but this runs the risk of cracking it.)
The method referred to involves gluing the broken-off tenon back, but also inserting say 6 stainless steel pins, say 40 mm long and 1.2 mm diameter, in say 1.4 mm holes drilled along inside the wall of the clarinet, avoiding tone holes, posts, etc.
This method is a dismal failure if there is not glue along the entire length of these pins, and most attempts I have seen fail because of this lack of glue. I fill the entire length of the holes before inserting the pins. This is impossible without using a method to allow the air to leave the holes.
For me, this repair is quite a lot faster than grafting a new tenon in, and does not run any risk of altering the clarinet's vital parameters.
I have done this repair a few dozen times on plastic clarinets, and a few grenadilla ones, but no Greenline. If you place an assembled clarinet on a bed and sit on it, something will break. I simply do not trust a simple but-glued joint to be as strong as the original,
However I nave never had a failure with my pinning method. Clarinets I have done this to, that have been subsequently sat on - three of them - have all broken at the tenon socket, rather than at the mended tenon. That, to me, is the ultimate test. Needless to say, I have done the same type of pinning work to repair these broken sockets.
My success with this type of pinning does not mean I have anything against a well done tenon graft. But I will defend it as probably stronger in resisting being broken when sat on!
Post Edited (2010-01-24 13:02)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 13:09
Donald wrote:
"A student of mine recently had the bell tenon shatter on his Leblanc Concerto. Gordon (NZ) was able to glue back several significant pieces of wood, reinforced with steel pins, and have the whole thing ready for performance within 24 hours. The resulting work was impeccable, and left no cosmetic evidence (only the most meticulous inspection would reveal that the joint had been repaired.
This was of a course a different (and probably simpler- certainly the joint need not be as strong on the bell tenon) repair to that required above, but illustrates that such work need not take a long time."
Thanks Donald. That repair was similar but different. It is actually quite a bit trickier to pin any part of a bell tenon because the timber is significantly thinner than it is for a centre tenon. I used thinner pinning wire for that, and if my memory serves me correctly, one of the pins was circumferential, inside the lip of the tenon.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-24 13:18
BobD wrote:
"I think it's improper to consider the Greenline as being made from plastic. The Greenline is a composite non-metallic material and in that respect is related to the structure of a "fibreglas" reinforced boat hull. Both structures are known to crack."
Sure, there is a very small amount of carbon fibre in the Greenline material, seemingly not enough to strengthen it sufficiently where strength is required.
However the rest is plastic - i.e. the resin - with a large quantity of filler - the grenadilla dust, which as dust probably weakens the plastic rather than strengthens it.
So to me it is indeed plastic, probably weakened by the dust, more than it is strengthened by the fibre. The material would possibly have been more satisfactory (apart from cosmetics) if it had been entirely resin. But then they would not have been able to woo so many buyers away from solid grenadilla. I see the inclusion of the grenadilla dust filler as nothing more than a marketing ploy.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-01-25 13:27
Perhaps I should have said that it's imprecise to categorize Greenline as a plastic clarinet. Although the epoxy that is part of the formulation is a polymer it is cured by adding a hardener. The true plastics that are used for clarinets are cured by using heat. My only point was that one cannot assume that a repair process that is successful for plastic clarinets will be successful with Greenline clarinets. Only someone who has successfully repaired a failure of a Greenline clarinet like that reported by Sylvain can speak with authority on that subject.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-25 23:11
There are many definitions of "plastic", many along the lines of "a substance composed predominantly of a synthetic organic high polymer capable of being cast or molded".
And within that definition, there are many types....
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Plastic-Resin-Definitions.htm
These incorporate quite a few ways of making a pliable material solid.
Several of these "plastic" materials have been used for making clarinets.
I don't think we can really categorise a "true plastic" as you have done.
Most plastic clarinets are probably ABS resin, which is not "cured" by heat. It is a thermoplastic material which softens with heat and hardens again when.
And I doubt that any technicians use a heat-curing process in their work, unless it is to speed up the setting of epoxy resins. Neither do they use the hot-air, plastic welding techniques that are possible with thermoplastic materials such as ABS.
However most technicians frequently use epoxy resin "plastics", and know their behaviour reasonably well. Many of us also sometimes use fillers in this resin. Also, in many physical respects this category of plastic is reasonably similar to another category, "hard rubber", which most mouthpieces and quite a few older clarinets are made from. We are also well used to using grenadilla dust as a filler with superglue. So Greenline material is pretty close to what we are already familiar with.
I doubt that the small amount of carbon fibre in Greenline makes much difference. But many technicians are also use to using this material, as banding reinforcement for cracks.
So I disagree with your statement "Only someone who has successfully repaired a failure of a Greenline clarinet like that reported by Sylvan can speak with authority on that." Perhaps I am being pinicketty, in the interests of readers not being misled.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2010-01-26 00:34
I would contact Francois Kloc at Buffet. You may be able to get a new upper joint. It doesn't hurt to ask.
John
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-01-26 03:46
Status and Questions:
Contacted Francois Kloc and he's looking in a new upper joint for me. No news yet.
Was recommended to repair techs John Weir in Canada and Don Hollis in Pittsburgh. Both think a tenon transplant is doable and fairly straightforward.
Any recommendations for/against both Don and John would be greatly appreciated.
I am leaning towards the cheaper tenon graft solution while I save money for a new clarinet. If I get a new upper joint, it's very likely it'll feel different and may not match the rest of the clarinet well. I might as well take teh plunge and get a new instrument.
Thanks for listening and let me know if you know Don Hollis' work. I am leaning towards him, easier, cheaper and faster shipping.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-01-26 04:30
i'd send it to john butler ; he did an amazing repair to an ancient buffet i sent him a few years ago.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-01-26 05:44
>> I used thinner pinning wire for that, and if my
>> memory serves me correctly, one of the pins was
>> circumferential, inside the lip of the tenon.
I assume you mean a part of the tenon itself broke and you glued a pin there. So you drilled holes in the sides of the break. Obviously drilling a curved hole is impossible, did you just use a short pin (i.e. just very little of it inside very short holes)? Something else?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-01-26 09:01
"in the interests of readers not being misled."
That's certainly a worthy goal, Gordon.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-01-26 12:28
Clarnibass wrote:
"...So you drilled holes in the sides of the break. Obviously drilling a curved hole is impossible, did you just use a short pin... "
That pin came from a hole in the solid tenon lip, around the curve of the lip (across a gap where timber was missing), and then into a hole in the solid tenon lip on the other side of the gap. The gap was filled with epoxy with either black pigment or grenadilla dust. The holes were straight, and the thickness of the lip on this particular clarinet enabled them to be about 5 mm long.
There were a couple of axial pins as well, to help reinforce the reasonably large area of tenon where timber was chipped away.
Post Edited (2010-01-26 12:30)
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Author: DHinson
Date: 2010-01-26 17:27
If it hasn't been mentioned yet...Votaw tool co does tenon repair in their shop.
Donald Hinson
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