 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ukebert
Date: 2009-11-05 14:01
Hey all,
I have a forte C Clarinet that I bought a few years ago and since have had very little chance to play. I found that when I did play it, the break B and C were flat, which I didn't know what to do about.
Now it was with me in college for most of last year and my room got uncomfortably hot, whatever I did. I suspect that it might have deformed the wood of the clarinet, because now most of the upper register plays flat. But I haven't discovered any mechanical problems, so that may not be the case. I am pretty sure that it is playing worse than it was when I first got it though.
In any case, does anyone know whether it would be possible to repair the clarinet to get it in tune and how much it might cost? I'm also presuming that mouthpiece selection will have a real difference, but unlike a lot of people I do not have a massive selection at my disposal. I have the one designed for the forte C, but that doesn't help much.
Post Edited (2009-11-05 15:44)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-05 14:25
First thing I would do is contact Doc Henderson to see what he suggests. if I recall, the Forte C is a wooden clarinet, so there might be something you could do to return the instrument to its original playing condition, but it would depend on the extent of the damage.
Beyond that, the next thing I would do is have a competent woodwind repair technician look over the instrument for any not-so-obvious problems.
Jeff
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2009-11-06 03:06
Ukebert said "I have a forte C Clarinet that I bought a few years ago and since have had very little chance to play. I found that when I did play it, the break B and C were flat, which I didn't know what to do about."
I have a Forte C clarinet and the long B and C were very flat on my instrument (and the 2 others I tried). I had a competent repairman do the following two operations:
1) There is a hole in the bell on the Forte C clarinet which I had tripled in size to bring up the B.
2) The long C's pitch is greatly affected by the size of the first uncovered tonehole below the C (ie the tonehole that the B key covers when you play B). On the Forte C clarinet this tonehole is bizarrely small. If you look at at a Bb, A or Eb clarinet, the two lowest toneholes (under the C and B key) are close in size. But on the Forte C clarinet these two toneholes are not close in size, as though the Czech makers of this instrument got the requisite size of the lowest tonehole wrong.
I had my repairman increase the size of the lowest tonehole (under the B key) and that brought up the pitch of the long C so that it is now in tune with the notes around it.
This is no reflection on Doc Henderson. He is a wonderful guy. The original Czech makers simply make that lowest tonehole too small. The pad and pad cup are the normal size but the hole is about 25% too small.
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Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-11-06 07:05
Did these modifications affect the corresponding notes in the low register?
Post Edited (2009-11-06 07:06)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-11-06 07:11
I have a Forte C clarinet and there are some intonation problems. The entire clarinet is a bit flat. Other than that, in comparison with itself the notes from low G to low E are flat, gradually worse the lower the note. Same for the notes 12th above, but not as bad as the low notes. Also the throat notes are problematic, and a few other notes.
I disagree with:
>> This is no reflection on Doc Henderson. He is a wonderful guy. The
>> original Czech makers simply make that lowest tonehole too small.
I have some great products from Omar Henderson. This clarinet is made by a company to specifications by a seller/designer. Of course any problems reflect on both.
Re enlarging the vent hole in the bell, it's possible but be careful. At some point, if the hole is large enough, the clarinet will "think" it is a tone hole as opposed to a vent hole. What will happen is the E and B notes will play as if this is their tone hole, and if it is by itself not large enough, the note will be very stuffy. I have experimented with this.
Ukebert, what mouthpiece are you using? I have the mouthpiece made by Ben Redwine sold specifically for the C clarinet. This mouthpiece plays very flat and I can't use it. With this mouthpiece and shorter barrel I can't play 440. Using my Bb mouthpiece helps (though still the intonation problems I mentioned exist).
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Author: ukebert
Date: 2009-11-06 14:43
Thanks very much for your comments, especially those relating to the vent and the long C tone hole.
It sounds then like a competent tech should be able to alleviate the long notes intonation problems. The general flatness could possibly then be fixed by a different mouthpiece.
I'm a rare breed that went from beginner to Grade 8 on one clarinet, one mouthpiece, a B12 with the stock. This means that I only have two mouthpieces to try, the Redwine and my B12. Both play flat.
Is there a mouthpiece that works well with this clarinet? I'll take wander through the BBoards and see.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-06 16:07
As a narrower bore mouthpiece plays sharper than a large bore mouthpiece, would it raise the overall pitch if you insert a piece of thin wall tubing (preferrably plastic) into the mouthpiece to effectively narrow the bore?
The outer diameter of the tubing is the same diameter as the bore so it'll be a push fit, and the length of tubing will be the entire length of the cylindrical section of the bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-11-06 16:10)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-11-06 17:51
Surely a shorter barrel would help the flatness??
Peter Cigleris
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2009-11-06 18:17
I've also experienced flatness with the Forte C, and have a note in the case that it is universally flat when cold, and much improved when warmed.
I also have narrowed the tone hole, left hand index finger, to correct sharpness in the throat tones when warmed.
I've printed the post from Mr. Aldrich, and next week will play the instrument for a while, and possibly take it to my tech for his consideration.
I expect Dr. Henderson to post on this matter shortly, and look forward to his insight.
Vann Joe
(amateur)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-06 20:06
Shorter barrels won't sharpen the whole instrument equally as the rest of the clarinet is fixed as to the distances the toneholes are from the mouthpiece.
Using a shorter barrel will have the most profound sharpening effect on the LH notes (and even more so with throat notes) as they're nearest the top of the instrument, though the effect of sharpening by using a shorter barrel will decrease as you descend down the instrument as the toneholes are still in the same position, so they can at worst throw the scale out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-11-08 09:29
"As a narrower bore mouthpiece plays sharper than a large bore mouthpiece, would it raise the overall pitch if you insert a piece of thin wall tubing (preferably plastic) into the mouthpiece to effectively narrow the bore?"
I wonder if it would work to simply put a thick strip of Blu-Tack down the length of the mouthpiece and possibly barrel.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-08 15:08
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> "As a narrower bore mouthpiece plays sharper than a large bore
> mouthpiece, would it raise the overall pitch if you insert a
> piece of thin wall tubing (preferably plastic) into the
> mouthpiece to effectively narrow the bore?"
>
> I wonder if it would work to simply put a thick strip of
> Blu-Tack down the length of the mouthpiece and possibly barrel.
While I'm not an expert on tube acoustics, I would be cautious about placing anything in the bore that would affect the flow of sound waves, especially in the relatively small bore of a clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-08 15:16
I think lining the bore with insulating/electrical tape would be a better option - then it can be added and removed but still preserves the shape of the bore.
I tried a length of Blu-Tack stuck in a mouthpiece bore and it was a disaster. Alright to make temporary baffles in sax mouthpieces to give them nore edge, but not so good stuck in the bore on clarinet mouthpieces.
Maybe I just used too much.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-11-09 01:38
"While I'm not an expert on tube acoustics, I would be cautious about placing anything in the bore that would affect the flow of sound waves, especially in the relatively small bore of a clarinet."
I just meant it to try. Easily removable.
With the standing waves that occur in a woodwind instrument, I don't think any waves are actually moving along the instrument. They are standing still.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-11-09 01:43
I have blobs of Blue Tack under the E/B hole on my classical clarinets. This doesn't effect anything other that the tuning of those bell notes by making them flatter as these can be sharp on classical clarinets.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-01-28 16:44
Well... I noticed that the E3 and F3 of my second hand Force C (2008) seem to feel more resistant, wanting to make the C5 instead. As for the break, I noticed that warming up does make an intonation difference.
The instrument seems to be at its best over clarion range, at least that's how it appears to me as a novice. It's mellow and even a bit human-like.
Post Edited (2010-01-29 12:37)
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Author: Gary
Date: 2010-10-30 00:24
Interesting discussion on this subject. Right now an improvement in overall intonation with my recently obtained shorter barrel has me excited about the piece I am using the Forte C for, i.e. a local chamber group performance of Carnival of the Animals. I just ran through the last movement in Carnival and the high g is now better attainable and in pretty good tune (as are the E's towards the end). However, I am interested in these comments; not sure I saw any resolution or confirmation of the changes suggested by Simon Aldrich.
Post Edited (2010-11-20 04:55)
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