 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: William
Date: 2009-09-29 15:38
Well, since you asked, I think I am/was "that good", but I chose to teach and stuck with it, retiring in 1999 after 34 yrs. While enjoying those public school years, working with lots of great kids, enjoying excellant benefits and building a good retirement pension portfolio, I also "moonlighted" as a clarinetist and saxphone/flute doubler with many bands, theatre pits, orchestras, jazz ensembles and combos bringing in a few extra dollars and lots of personal enjoyment. That's what I did--and for me, the best of both worlds, I guess.
However, now that curtain is slowly lowering on my playing career, perhaps going back to school and learning about gems...(?) LOL.
Great article, thanks for posting.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-09-29 17:07
The best of both worlds thing is about the best you can do in my view. I love my playing, and love playing in the orchestra, but I'll never have to make a cent off of it. I'm just blessed to have talents in multiple fields.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2009-09-29 18:23
I think this is an important article, not so much for musicians (although I think it should be required reading for every Juilliard student), but for non-musicians who don't realize what it means to choose music as a vocation. One of the phrases that jumped out at me was "this once-sacred endeavor...has come to seem a cold, unforgiving trade." Every musician of every age, I think, would call the trade challenging, even frustrating sometimes, but never cold or unforgiving. Granted, virtually every musician I know, even the ones who regularly sit in well-known and respected orchestras, live a patchwork professional life of gigging, teaching, and sometimes repair or sales work if their talents lie there. The good news is that none of them would trade it for the world, and personally I thank my lucky stars for the extraordinarily well-trained, seasoned, and well-respected musicians who have found joy in teaching. The joy and the reward of playing is always and has ever been what makes it a "sacred endeavor," not the lofty pretensions that sell season boxes.
OK, I'll climb down from my lofty pretentious soap box now...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-29 18:54
This is a very common story, especially about really good clarinet students. Too many talented people out there, far to few job. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: winthropguy
Date: 2009-09-30 01:33
I graduated high school in 1998 and heard clarinet players (some of the best in the state, for their ages) rave about how they were going to audition for Julliard. I thought then that they were all crazy; I had no desire to deal with that level of competition for jobs.
I chose to go into marketing and am glad I did, but I do miss playing and am starting lessons again so I can get involved in my community. It seems like everyone just has to find their comfort level.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-09-30 16:41
Well. 11 of 44 found jobs as professional performers. As for the rest there's four year colleges, community colleges, and horror of horrors high schools that would welcome a Jullilard graduate on their staff.
They strike me as self centered with inflated ideas of the own inportance. Is sorting stones really more satisfying than teaching young students? I wonder what the kids from Curtis and Eastman are doing thiese days?
A Julliard drop out (a cellist) was homeless and working the streets of LA till recently. They made a movie about him (The Soloist), maybe they sould all hit the homeless route and hope Hollywood lightening strikes!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2009-09-30 16:57
Well, to be fair, a lot of those kids have been told since the age of four that they're special -- I have a feeling that they don't all have the same coping skills (or social skills, for that matter) that others have. Is it any surprise that they're self-centered with inflated ideas of their own importance? The surprise is that so many of them managed to pull themselves together and get on with their lives.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-09-30 20:40
Hi All,
This is really an important article for aspiring musicians to read. The stories are not surprising at all.
I made a conscious choice at 16 to be a music ed. major rather than a performer and have not looked back since. I saw how hard many of my fellow campers at Interlochen practiced and knew that that was not really the life I sought.
I am an excellent player still and like William continue to work pits, jazz gigs (getting fewer), play in some very good collegiate community bands, and perform often at church (did 3 of the Finzi Bagatelles a month or so ago). Sure, I am still a soloist at times but find that I no longer seek high pressure jobs (symphony pops and local pro big band) any more (William, I have a curtain coming down as well). Lately, I have been playing a lot of BC and lovin' it!
However, I am starting my 45th year of teaching and will be accepting a two-year Visiting Professor at a very large D1 university soon. If Al Gollodoro and Les Paul can play into their 90s, I'm just getting started at 71!
HRL
PS I still advise several of my former students who are now successful music teachers as well as still being excellent players.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-30 21:46
Philcoman wrote:
<<Well, to be fair, a lot of those kids have been told since the age of four that they're special -- I have a feeling that they don't all have the same coping skills (or social skills, for that matter) that others have. Is it any surprise that they're self-centered with inflated ideas of their own importance? The surprise is that so many of them managed to pull themselves together and get on with their lives.>>
You know, I think that's really unfair. Teaching is not for everyone--not everyone has the patience, skill, or interest to be a good teacher, which takes a different set of skills than does performing. And it's very difficult to make a decent living just through performance.
At one time, I was on a career path in music, but I changed course early on and went into engineering and later law. On the one hand, I count myself fortunate enough to have been exposed to the unfortunate realities of performance as a career by teachers who were willing to be honest with me about it--I must say that that was a major motivating factor in making another career choice (another was simply the fact that I love science and math). On the other hand, though, there is a side of me that sometimes wonders what might have happened if I had decided to stick with music. A lot of people (whose opinions I trusted) were telling me that I was good enough to make a career out of it, but I was also told how hard it was to make a career of music performance even if you have the ability and drive to do so.
To some extent, age 17 or 18 is really too young to have to make such life-changing decisions. I think a lot of talented young players struggle with making these kinds of choices. There is a conflict between the burning desire to play music at the highest level you can and the desire for financial security. For someone who's passionate about music, I think it's very easy to make a decision favoring either side of this conflict. It isn't until years later that you can make a real determination for yourself as to whether the path you chose was the right one all along (if, in fact, it's possible to determine that at all).
So, at least to some degree, I can empathize with the folks in this video. I don't think they're a bunch of ego-centric kids with no coping skills. It's just that their talents and aspirations don't necessarily coincide with what the job market is seeking, and they're only finding that out now (and finding out that even attending Juilliard is not a guarantee of success--which is quite a different experience than what people in other fields--such as engineering or accounting, for example--who attend prestigious universities have). I didn't want to be in the boat they're in, where you have a degree from a top-notch conservatory but can't find a job, so I chose a different path. Had somebody not told me far enough in advance about how difficult things might be, though, I think I could have easily found myself in their situation (maybe not having graduated from a place like Juilliard, but in a similar situation, nonetheless). I think had I pursued formal music education further, though, I would almost certainly have done so in a university setting--I think part of the problem these folks are facing is that their education is so narrowly focused on music; a university education would help with that. (On the other hand, if I had auditioned for Curtis and gotten in, I don't think I'd have turned that down--at least it's paid for.)
The desire to play music at the level I could have had I pursued degree(s) in music and a professional performance career still hasn't gone away, though. I hope it never does.
One lesson to be learned from this article/video, though, is that having a top name on your resume is not a free pass to an orchestral career in a major orchestra. Indeed, with screened auditions, it seems that (apart from the quality of the instruction you receive wherever you go) where you go to music school doesn't make that much difference. If you're going to pursue a degree in music, go where you're going to get the best education--if that's Juilliard, that's fine, but if it's not, don't rack up a bunch of student debt just to get the name on your resume.
Post Edited (2009-09-30 22:17)
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2009-09-30 23:57
Interesting response, mrn! I certainly didn't mean to be cruel or unfair -- in fact, I was trying to be *fair* (as I said) by pointing out that kids who've been told all their lives that they're the best and who have trained at a school that prides itself on turning out the best might not have the tools to make an informed decision when they hit a brick wall in their career path. It's not an unusual phenomenon. As you say yourself, they're just finding out that even attending Juilliard is not a guarantee of success, and their education is narrowly focused on music -- sometimes from a very early age.
It's not just in music that this happens, BTW. In April the Boston Globe ran an article about Harvard grads who had been told for years that they would have open doors waiting for them when they graduated but, because of the tanked economy, are facing rejections they never expected to face, and are just devestated. Harvard has actually established panels to help grads deal with it.
And I certainly didn't mean to imply that teaching is right for everyone; I'm not sure where you got that from. God knows there are some terrible teachers out there!
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-01 01:00
Philcoman wrote:
> And I certainly didn't mean to imply that teaching is right for
> everyone; I'm not sure where you got that from. God knows there
> are some terrible teachers out there!
I was sort of reading your post together with Geezer's, I think. You didn't mention anything about teaching, but Geezer's post seemed to suggest that the 75% who don't get performance jobs should be satisfied with teaching. I perhaps should have quoted Geezer's post instead.
I see your point about having a narrow focus and being on a high-achievement track. I know there are students (as well as athletes and others) out there (in plenty of fields) who are like that and who probably don't know what to do with themselves after devoting all of their energies to one thing for so long only to face disappointment. Still, most of the high-achieving musical people I've known, at least, have been more well-rounded and well-adjusted than that.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2009-10-01 01:13
Ken,
She plays the solo very beautifully!
From her interview, I noticed her say something right at the end.
"After Juilliard, anything else in life seems very easy. It really does."
These words really resonate in my mind as significant.
I'm reminded of something Stan Hasty used to say about preparing students for such a competitive profession with few full-time playing prospects. He said that he felt that the study of music emphasizes virtues that are applicable to many other professions. It requires discipline and appreciation for something that is beautiful, among other things.
Remember that the subject one teaches isn't necessarily always the end objective... How many of you know political science majors that don't work in politics?
This correlation applies! The education, regardless of path, should instill values and develop skills that apply beyond the realm of the subject matter. Law schools love music majors. They're meticulous and detail oriented (good ones, anyway).
I wouldn't discourage anyone from studying music, but I would caution them against ignoring everything about their education except for practicing the clarinet. This defeats the purpose of getting an education.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: vin
Date: 2009-10-01 02:45
Geezer-
He actually played the bass, but they changed it for the movie.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-01 12:59
My wife is a Ph.D. musicologist who ended up as a bank vice president. She says, and I agree, that music is a wonderful major but a terrible way to make a living.
However, a music major is a great preparation for other work. You can't get by with "appreciation," the way you can in many college majors. First of all, you need to master your instrument, which requires years of work on a single subject. Second, you need to master theory, which requires diligent study.
It's no coincidence that among IBM employees, music is the most common undergraduate major after computer science.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-10-01 18:10
vin says; "He actually played the bass, but they changed it for the movie"
Well who knows?
60 minutes showed videos of him playing the violin, trumpet, and cello on the streets. A lot of it is puffery by a newspaper columnist who got a number of columns, a book, and a movie deal out of it! What the now famous Julliard drop out received is not clear.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-01 18:56
Ken Shaw wrote:
<<It's no coincidence that among IBM employees, music is the most common undergraduate major after computer science.>>
Well, what would one expect from a corporation with its own songbook, band, orchestra, and glee club, and that commissioned its own symphony (by Vittorio Giannini).
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/music/music_CH1.html
(Check out the music clips, too.)
I don't think they're quite as musical these days.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-10-01 19:04
I posted this once before, but again I'd like to share this famous Bizet quote about music: What a beautiful art, but what a wretched profession.
Ken, if you don't mind, could you tell us a little about your wife's journey from musicologist to bank vice president? I'm curious, because many years ago I considered going the musicology route myself. After getting an undergrad degree in music ed., I applied for a masters program in musicology. I didn't get in, and soon after I got a job as a public school music teacher. I later got a masters in music ed.
I know that there are a lot of performance hopefuls who realize that they don't quite have what it takes, but they don't want to go into music ed. Instead, they get degrees in theory, composition, conducting, or musicology. How's the job market for someone who wants to get a college teaching position in musicology?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-01 19:11
One of my law school classmates had a PhD in musicology. She was a really good student, made law review, graduated with honors, and won a prestigious judicial clerkship (with the Texas Supreme Court, I think).
Post Edited (2009-10-01 19:16)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-02 00:25
clarinetguy -
My wife's journey was shaped by who she was, and by opportunities and events that were unique. Nevertheless, the discipline she got from music training was the basis of every move. (She'll kill me for telling this.)
When she was in high school, she played flute and piano. While working on her masters at Indiana, she got involved with the founding of their early music collegium and switched to recorder. While working on her dissertation at North Carolina (on the history of recorder method books), she made just enough to live on by teaching private recorder lessons to kids and playing organ at a church.
When she got her Ph.D., the only work she could find was a half-time non-tenure-track position teaching music appreciation at a dreadful college near Philadelphia. To make a living, she worked three overlapping super-saver airline tickets between Chapel Hill and Philadelphia, teaching dumb, uninterested college students for 3 days each week and then bunches of kids in Chapel Hill and playing the church job the other 4 days. However, when President Carter deregulated the airlines, the super-saver tickets got too expensive.
Fortunately, we met about that time, and she moved to NYC, giving up Chapel Hill and doing office work through temp agencies. Along the way, she took a couple of computer courses and found out she had talent there.
Based on teaching experience and computer training, she got offers to teach computers and left the awful college job. She got a job at Citibank teaching new employees to use computers. Then she started doing computer installation and then distribution of internally-developed software. She was really good at this and got one promotion after another, eventually becoming the vice president in charge of worldwide software distribution. She's now retired.
As you can see, she grabbed each opportunity as it came along. Her music and scholarly experience made her a meticulous worker, and teaching college classes and recorder made her a great classroom and one-on-one trainer. When a computer training job came along, it was a natural transition. Playing flute. recorder and piano made her physically dexterous, so she quickly learned to install computers. Teaching, and natural intelligence and training, plus computer experience, led her into software distribution.
I think music training set her up. She moved to each new area because that training and increasing experience qualified her for each opening.
There's nobody like my wife, but all music students have a head-start in the job market. They've learned the complex skill of playing an instrument over many years, and they've learned how to learn complex and difficult material by studying music theory and history.
My wife is a great musicologist. While she was still in school, she published a bibliography that's on every music librarian's desk. She wrote a dissertation that is recognized as definitive and is consulted even today. But even when a job market existed, all she could get was a half-time, non-tenure-track job at a scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel school. Today, the job market for teaching musicology in college is ZERO. You literally have to wait until someone dies, and then fight hundreds of other unemployed Ph.D.s for it.
As she says, music is the best major there is, but the worst way to earn a living.
Ken Shaw
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2009-10-02 00:37
Hey Everybody!
Music is a great way to make a living! Just be the best!
I've been at it for about 45 years now as a professional Clarinetist. Life is great, the playing is varied and fun, I love to "go to work" every night at WICKED on Broadway, and I highly recommend music as a profession.
Music is not going away, and neither is live music! Don't let anyone talk you out of being the best professional musician!!!
Check my web-site bio (once again) to see how varied our wonderful professional musician field can be...for any of you, just be the best!
http://www.johnmosesclarinet.com
BTW: I was at Juilliard for many years...great school!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2009-10-02 00:39)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-10-02 11:56
Ken, thank you for sharing your wife's story. She sounds like an amazing person. I give her a lot of credit for moving off in another direction and being successful at it.
I didn't realize that the job market today for musicology professors is zero. I sometimes think back and wonder about what would have happened if I had gone that route.
When I was working on my masters in music ed., I had a professor for a few music lit classes who had started at the university in the early 1940s (he was there for about 40 years). He was a full professor and he was good at what he did, but his highest degree was a masters in musicology. I don't think this kind of thing is possible anymore.
Post Edited (2009-10-02 12:02)
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