 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: kman1000
Date: 2009-09-26 08:56
I play the clarinet (3 years) but I now have a number of instruments including a keyboard. Simply put, I just want to have a solid understanding (a good foundation) of music theory. Good enough that I will have the knowledge to play ANY instrument (knowledge wise). The only thing that I will have to do is put in the physical time with each instrument applying that foundational knowledge NOT learning anything new. Just simply getting used to the new instrument. I have asked this to others who play the piano but I haven't received a definitive answer yet. This is what I have been told so far. Actually, this is my interpretation of what I've been told. Like I said, I haven't been given a solid answer yet so I don't know if the things that I have written that I need to learn is too much OR too less OR exactly right.... :S Anyways,
#1. Learn all 48 scales in all 12 keys
Scales: Major (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C), Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Harmonic Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,B,C), Melodic Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Pentatonic Major (C,D,F,G,A,C), Pentatonic Minor (C,Eb,F,G,A#,C), Pentatonic Blues (C,Eb,F,F#,G,A#), Pentatonic Neutral (C,D,F,G,A#), Ionian (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C), Aeolian (C,Eb,F,F#,G#,A#,B,C#,Eb), Dorian (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,A#,C), Mixolydian (C,D,E,F,G,A,A#,C), Phrygian (C,C#,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C), Locrian (C,C#,Eb,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Dim half (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G,A,A#), Dim whole (C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B), Whole (C,D,E,F#,G#,A#), Augmented (C,Eb,E,G,G#,B), Chromatic (C,C#,D,Eb,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B,C), Roumanian Minor (C,D,Eb,F#,G,A,A#,C), Spanish Gypsy (C,C#,E,F,G,G#,A#,C), Blues (C,Eb,F,F#,G,A#,C), Diatonic (C,D,E,G,A,C), Double Harmonic (C,C#,E,F,G,G#,B,C), Eight Tone Spanish (C,C#,Eb,E,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Enigmatic (C,C#,E,F#,G#,A#,B,C), Leading Whole Tone (C,D,E,F#,G#,A,A#), Lydian Augmented (C,D,E,F#,G#,A,B,C), Neoploitan Major (C,C#,Eb,F,G,A,B,C), Neopolitan Minor (C,C#,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Pelog (C,C#,Eb,F#,A#,B), Prometheus (C,D,E,F#,A,A#,C), Prometheus Neopolitan (C,C#,E,F#,A,A#,C), Six Tone Symmetrical (C,C#,E,F,G#,A,C), Super Locrian (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Lydian Minor (C,D,E,F#,G,G#,A#,C), Lydian Diminished (C,D,Eb,F#,G,G#,A#,C), Nine Tone Scale (C,D,Eb,E,F#,G,G#,A,B,C), Auxiliary Diminished (C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C), Auxiliary Augmented (C,D,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Auxiliary Diminished Blues (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G,A,A#,C), Major Locrian (C,D,E,F,F#,G#,A#,C), Overtone (C,D,E,F#,G,A,A#,C), Diminished Whole Tone (C,C#,Eb,E,F#,G#,A#,C), Pure Minor (C,D,Eb,F,G,G#,A#,C), Dominant 7th (C,D,F,G,A,A#,C)
#2 Learn all 50 chords in all 12 keys (Note: for chords, I have listed all the chords and beside each of the chords I wrote the principle behind them. I’m not sure if it is all correct but I tried. I have put in bold the chords that I think I have to memorize. As for the other chords, I believe I should be able to figure them out by their name after I have memorized the chords in bold well. I just need to remember the rule and apply it to each chord in every key instead of memorizing the notes. right? )
Major (C,E,G) , basic
Minor (C,Eb,G), lower the 3rd 1/2 step
5th (C,G), remove the 3rd
Dominant 7th (C,E,G,A#), up 1 ½ from 5th
Major 7th (C,E,G,B), up 2 tones from 5th
Minor 7th (C,Eb,G,A#), minor + dominant 7th
Minor Major 7th (C,Eb,G,B), minor + major 7th
Sus4 (C,F,G), raise the 3rd ½ step (1 semitone)
Sus2 (C,D,G), lower the 3rd 1 step
6th (C,E,G,A), raise 5th 1 step (tone)
Minor 6 (C,Eb,G,A), minor + 6th
9th (C,E,G,A#), same as dominant 7th
Minor 9 (C,Eb,G,A#), same as minor 7th
Major 9 (C,E,G,B), same as major 7th
Minor Major 9 (C,Eb,G,B,D), minor + major 9 + 1 ½ step up from 7th note
11th (C,E,G,A#,D,F), 9th/7th + raise 2 tones from 7th + raise 1 ½ step from 9th
Minor 11th (C,Eb,G,A#,D,F), name*
Major 11th (C,E,G,B,D,F), name*
Minor Major 11th (C,Eb,G,B,D,F), name*
13th (C,E,G,A#,D,A), 9th/7th + raise 2 tones from 7th + raise 7 steps
Minor 13 (C,Eb,G,A#,D,A), name*
Major 13 (C,E,G,B,D,A), name*
Minor Major 13 (C,Eb,G,B,D,A), name*
add 9 (C,E,G,D), raise the 5th 7 steps
Minor add 9 (C,Eb,G,D), name*
6 add 9 (C,E,G,A,D), name*
Minor 6 add 9 (C,Eb,G,A,D), name*
Dominant 7th add 11 (C,E,G,A#,F), dominant 7 + raise 7th 7 steps
Major 7th add 11 (C,E,G,B,F), name*
Minor 7th add 11 (C,Eb,G,A#,F), name*
Minor Major 7th add 11 (C,Eb,G,B,F), name*
Dominant 7th add 13 (C,E,G,A#,A), dominant 7 + raise 7th 11 steps
Major 7th add 13 (C,E,G,B,A), name*
Minor 7th add 13 (C,Eb,G,A#,A), name*
Minor Major 7th add 13 (C,Eb,G,B,A), name*
7b5 (C,E,F#,A#), dominant 7th w/ the 5th lowered one semitone
7#5 (C,E,G#,A#), dominant 7th w/ the 5th raised one semitone
7b9 (C,E,G,A#,C#), dominant 7th + raise 7th 3 steps
7#9 (C,E,G,A#,Eb), dominant 7th + raise 7th 5 steps
7#5b9 (C,E,G#,A#,C#), name*
m7b5 (C,Eb,F#,A#), name* (‘m’ here means ‘minor’)
m7#5 (C,Eb,G#,A#), name*
m7b9 (C,Eb,G,A#,C#), name*
9#11 (C,E,G,A#,D,F#), same as 11th but raise the last note 1 semitone
9b13 (C,E,G,A#,D,G#), same as 13th but lower the last note 1 semitone
6sus4 (C,F,G,A), sus4 + raise the 5th one tone
7sus4 (C,F,G,A#), sus4 + raise the 5th 1 ½ step
Major 7th Sus4 (C,F,G,B), sus4 + raise the 5th two tone
9sus4 (C,F,G,A#,D), 7sus4 + raise the 7th two tones
Major 9 Sus4 (C,F,G,B,D) major 7th sus4 + raise the 7th three tones
#3 Learn Cadences....
I’m not really sure about cadences but I having been reading about them on some music sites so here is my take on it. A cadence is a two-chord progression that occurs at the end of a phrase. I’m not really sure how to practice this. I have been doing searches on Google for “piano cadence charts” and I don’t see anything really. So, maybe I should just memorize this: (I found this on Wikipedia....)
Authentic (also closed or standard) cadence: V to I (or IV - V - I). The phrase perfect cadence is sometimes used as a synonym for authentic cadence, but can also have a more precise meaning depending on the chord voicing:
• Perfect authentic cadence (PAC): The chords are in root position; that is, the roots of both chords are in the bass, and the tonic (the same pitch as root of the final chord) is in the highest voice of the final chord. A PAC is a progression from V to I in major keys, and V to i in minor keys.
• Imperfect authentic cadence (IAC), best divided into three separate categories:
o 1. Root position IAC: similar to a PAC, but the highest voice is not the tonic ("do" or the root of the tonic chord).
o 2. Inverted IAC: similar to a PAC, but one or both chords must be inverted.
o 3. Leading tone IAC: the V chord is replaced with the viio/subV chord (but the cadence still ends on I).
• Half (or open, or imperfect) cadence: any cadence ending on V, whether preceded by V of V, ii, IV, or I, or any other chord.
• Phrygian half cadence: a half cadence from IV⁶ to V in minor
• Plagal cadence: phrase ends with IV (or iv) going to I (or i),
• Deceptive (or interrupted, or surprise) cadence: V to any chord other than I (typically ii, vi or VI).
#4 Spend some time concentrating on learning to read rhythms, just by themselves.
I’m not sure how to do this. I searched Google but nothing came up when I looked for rhythm charts...
So, that's it. Can someone please confirm or provide some clarification. By that, I mean a solid concrete answer. Something like ->
"you need to be able to do this, this, and this. After you master that, mission accomplished or everything else is easy after you master that/those."
I am pretty confused, I think. My feelings about this is -> Well, this seems like a mammoth task that I have before me but the reward is also huge. (the knowledge to be able to understand how to play ANY instrument) I think that to memorize all the scales and chords, I just need to practice them everyday for about 4-5 hours. At that pace, maybe after about 7-8 months or more I should know them all. (but i don't know..)
Are these four things that I have typed above exactly what I need to memorize and then learn how to play with ease on my keyboard? (maybe it is way too much or too less) I think I should start on the keyboard and apply the solid foundational knowledge back to the clarinet since my ultimate goal is to acquire the knowledge to understand how to play any instrument. Thank you!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-09-26 11:47
Learning music theory is much easier on piano than on clarinet, IMHO. You can *see* theory on a piano's keys. Also, on piano, with so many notes and chords to play all at once, there's a big incentive to learn theory. Piano students are much less likely to get lazy about it because we find out in a hurry that more theory means fewer clunkers. I think studying piano is a great idea for any musician.
I'm an amateur musician (piano, clarinets, saxes, recorders). My mom, who had sung professionally and had taught music, started me on piano in a casual way, without my realizing she was giving me lessons, when I was small. We used to sing little songs in the car: a tune to "C, D, E, F, G, A, B C" and then down again to start with and then more complicated tunes that I later realized (with some amusement) were solfeggio: ear-training. She'd taught me the key signatures so easily that I never felt as if I were memorizing rule-books and I never got the idea the material was supposed to be boring, according to some students -- because in fact it isn't boring. Sound and harmony are fascinating. Knowing about it already was a huge help to me when I started formal lessons with an "outside our house" teacher and when I started playing transposing instruments.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-09-26 16:06
Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!! Slow down, there!!!!
You've made way too big a list on some topics, and completely left some others out. There is a LOT more to theory than learning a bunch of scales, chords, and rhythms. You seem highly concerned with identifying certain combinations of notes, which is really somewhat tangential to theory.
For scales, it is most useful to know major and the 3 minors. After that, perhaps all the modes, pentatonic, whole tone, and the octatonics, and blues scales if you're so inclined. No need to memorize what they are in each key, just how to construct each one.
Also no need to learn "all" 50 chords (I wouldn't even consider that an accurate number). Instead, learn what makes a major, minor, augmented, and diminished triad, and how to invert them, then how to add different 7ths and 9ths to them. In any case, all that isn't particularly relevant until you understand the context. Being able to recognize that C# E# G# is the V (dominant) of F# is far more relevant than memorizing endless lists of chords.
It sounds like what you really need is a course, teacher, and/or book. There is actually very little memorizing involved if you approach it from discovering and understanding why things are set up the way they are, and what purpose different things serve. Knowing that Db F Ab is a Neapolitan of C is great, but unless you know what that entails, it won't do you an ounce of good as a musician.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-09-26 16:08
FWIW, I am working on a masters in performance and composition, and don't know most of those scales by name, and certainly wouldn't be able to list and name all those chords... I could build the chords when necessary, but not produce an exhaustive list. It simply isn't relevant unless you're into some really esoteric stuff.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
Post Edited (2009-09-26 16:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2009-09-26 16:35
I suggest taking a theory course at your local community college. The big advantage of proceeding this way is the structure it provides. The teacher is likely to stress the most important things (and not insist you recognize some chord you will never see).
Also, you didn't mention what sort of music you were interested in. Bach's SATB harmony is not like Charlie Parker's.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-26 16:52
I'm with Alex. Your list is overkill, while at the same time lacking in some important areas.
You don't need to learn all those scales--just the ones Alex mentioned will suffice. Actually a bunch of the scales you listed are really the same scale, just starting on a different note and in a different key. C Dorian is nothing more than a Bb Major scale where you start on C instead of Bb. So if you learn all your major scales, you're covered--the finger pattens are the same, and if you really need to know that something is "Dorian mode" or "Mixolydian mode" or whatever, you can figure that out in your head--there is no need to memorize each Dorian scale, for example.
For playing an instrument, there are some other scale-type exercises that are very valuable (some might say essential) that you have not listed. Scales in thirds, for example, are extremely important. In general, exercises that get you used to playing various intervals on the instrument are valuable. The better scale books also contain exercises for scales in fourths, scales in fifths, and other intervals.
One of the most complete (if not the most complete) scale/arpeggio books for clarinet is "Klarinetten-Schule Band 2" by Rudolf Jettel. It contains scales and arpeggios as well as other exercises to get you used to playing in different keys. Although it's a bit pricey, I highly recommend it. It has just about everything you could want from a scale book.
Another similar book that is older, less expensive, a bit less complete, but nonetheless good for this sort of thing is volume 3 of Baermann's method for clarinet (usually referred to here as "Baermann III"). It's published in various forms, including under the title "Foundation Studies" by David Hite, where the Baermann materials are ordered by key signature, as they are in the Jettel book.
A perusal through one or both of these books should give you an idea as to what scales, arpeggios, and scale-like studies are most important.
However, important as scales and arpeggios are, I think it is really more important to have a good arsenal of practice techniques to allow you to quickly learn unusual patterns you run across in music, especially in more modern pieces that aren't based on traditional harmony. In other words, you should strive to master the art of learning new bits of technique on an as-needed basis from the pieces you play. This will help you to learn passages that do not rely on scales or arpeggios, but it will also aid you in learning scales and arpeggios.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kman1000
Date: 2009-09-27 00:29
Quote:
For scales, it is most useful to know major and the 3 minors. After that, perhaps all the modes, pentatonic, whole tone, and the octatonics, and blues scales if you're so inclined.
So, here they are:
Major (wwhwwwh)
natural minor (whwwhww)
harmonic minor (To convert any natural minor scale into harmonic minor, raise the seventh note by a half step)
melodic minor (To convert a natural minor scale into melodic minor, raise both the sixth and seventh notes by a half step).
starting and ending on supertonic. That's a mode called the Dorian Mode
mediant phrygian mode
subdominant lydian mode
dominant mixolydian mode
submediant aeolian mode
leading tone locrian mode
tonic ionian mode (simple major/minor scale)
Pentatonic scale is formed of notes 1 2 3 5 and 6 of the major scale. it's just a major scale with two notes missing - notes 4 and 7!!
whole tone scale - #1 C, D, E, F♯, G♯, A♯, C & #2 B, D♭, E♭, F, G, A, B
Octatonic scale -> has eight notes and is constructed from alternating half-steps (H) and whole-steps (W) H-W-H-W-H-W-H-W
blues scale - One and a half tones, tone, semitone, semitone, one and a half tones, tone.
Quote:
Instead, learn what makes a major, minor, augmented, and diminished triad, and how to invert them, then how to add different 7ths and 9ths to them.
major (built with a major third [4 tones from root] and a perfect fifth from the root [7 half steps from root])
minor (created with a minor third [3 half steps] and a perfect fifth from the root)
augmented (built with a major third and an augmented fifth [4 tones])
diminished triad (built with a minor third and a diminished fifth [3 tones])
to invert them (move the lowest note up an octave, bass note determines the name of the inversion)
7ths (Five types of seventh chords*):
major triad and a minor seventh combine -> dominant seventh chord
major triad and a major seventh combine -> a major seventh chord
minor triad and a minor seventh combine -> a minor seventh chord
diminished triad and a diminished seventh combine -> a fully-diminished seventh chord results (or just called a diminished seventh chord)
diminished triad and a minor seventh combine -> a half-diminished seventh chord
9ths -> made up of a root, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th (not the maj7th -- just the 7th) plus the 9th note of the scale
Quote:
In general, exercises that get you used to playing various intervals on the instrument are valuable.
I think you are referring to the information below, right? :
intervals
A major second is made up of two half steps
major third is made up of four half steps.
perfect fourth is made up of five half steps
major sixth is made up of nine half steps
major seventh is made up of eleven half steps
perfect eighth (or perfect octave) is made up of twelve half steps
diminished interval has one less half step than a perfect interval
augmented interval has one more half step than a perfect interval
Major intervals can also be made augmented by adding a half step
note - Subtracting a half step from a major interval does not make it diminished; instead, it becomes minor
For example, since C to B is a major seventh (11 half steps), C to Bb is a minor seventh (10 half steps).
• Only after subtracting another half step does it become diminished. Thus, C to Bbb would be our diminished seventh (9 half steps)
Quote:
No need to memorize what they are in each key, just how to construct each one.
I am a student so there no way that I can afford a teacher or purchase any extra books or what not. I'm just too poor. So, you say I shouldn't memorize the scales but memorize the formula, right? So, everyday should I just start playing EVERYTHING that I typed above in every key non-stop until I know with my eyes closed? I just want to absolutely positive of what I need to do everyday, that's all. I have 4-5 hours that I can practice everyday so here is what I plan on doing. I am writing this so you all can let me know if this 100% correct. 
#1.
I will practice the 4 scales (major, natural m, harmonic m, & melodic m) in every key. I will go up and down until I know them by heart. At that point, I will get my girlfriend to just call out random scales in random keys and see if I can play it instantly. i.e. C melodic minor Maybe I'll spend an hour on this.
Next, I will practice all 7 modes in all keys. I'll just go up and down until I know the effortlessly. My girlfriend will test me thereafter.
Then, I'll do the exact same thing with the Pentatonic, whole tone, Octatonic, whole-steps, and blues scales.
#2.
I'm not sure how I should practice chords though. Should I follow the same approach above that I did with the scales? By that, I mean should I just play all the chords -> "major, minor, augmented, and diminished triad and their inversions and also 7ths and 9ths" in every key until I know them by heart?
*MRN mentioned 'exercise that get you used to playing various intervals on the instrument are valuable'. I addressed this and listed what I thought he was talking about. Was I correct MRN? If so, then how do I practice that? Or is it something that I shouldn't practice but rather just keep in mind. (a concept rather than something to practice and develop) ??
Based on the wonderful advice given by Alex, I think what I have typed above is what I need to master to have a very solid foundation knowledge wise to be able to understand how to play ANY instrument. If you can confirm this Alex, then I will start practicing right away! :D
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-09-27 00:48
Again, chill, dude, chill.
You are WAY overanalyzing. Music isn't something that can be learned by memorizing numbers and formulas. It requires listening. Lots and lots of listening. If you're trying to broaden your musical horizons by ingraining a bunch of combinations of numbers, you'll end up with a bunch of numbers in your head and you won't know what they actually mean or do.
Do you know what a first-inversion minor chord SOUNDS like? Do you know what a neapolitan chord or an augmented 6th chord sound like in context? Knowing what notes is fine and good, but ultimately useless if you can't associate them with a sound.
Not to mention the myriad things you are NOT looking at. Voice leading. Modulations. Secondary harmonies. Secondaries of secondaries. Polytonality. The list goes on and on.
With your list, you will become an encyclopedic expert on a huge array of disjunct, largely irrelevant facts.
Practice is NOT simply a "more time makes it better" exercise. With proper guidance, you can achieve in 10 minutes what may take you hours, weeks, or months otherwise. Especially if you start spending countless hours practicing each mode separately.
If you have no means of getting in touch with any books, classes, or teachers (heck, there have to be some free online courses out there somewhere!), then about the best way for you to spend your time, in my humble opinion, is by listening to as much music as you can. Brute-force practicing and memorization in the way you are describing it may help you a little, but I think it would be largely a waste of time without any context.
If you practice 4-5 hours a day, solid, in the manner you describe, you'll probably also develop a repetitive strain injury before long.
You seem to know a lot of the words involved, but you also seem to have little understanding of WHY and WHEN different pieces of music theory are relevant. That's the important part, and that's what leads to better musicianship.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-09-27 01:10
I guess what I'm getting at is that the way you are approaching things, while possibly helping you in some ways, is very far indeed from the solid foundation you are aiming for.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kman1000
Date: 2009-09-27 01:15
Ahhh!! this is soo confusing! I am pretty sure you are right Alex but I just want to be able to play some songs and read music. I'm not striving to be Mozart or even great musician, I just want to be able to play songs with my friends. that's all.
But after just typing that, I think I know what I need to do now! Since I just want to be able to play songs then I should just pick a song that I want to learn and go at it. I should NOT focus on scales or anything that is not relevant TO THAT PIECE that I'm playing. That way, everything that I learn will be directly tied to piece of music AND I will have learned it in context by playing it. Of course, the piece I choose will have to be something that has a complete tutorial online but there should be plenty of those out there with the popularity of the piano. Does this sound about right? haha! I think I finally got it now! thx Alex! Now I can just start playing in peace with a clear mind!!
Oh and also about the repetitive strain injury possibility. I thought that the more I practice the better.... ??
Post Edited (2009-09-27 01:18)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-09-27 01:31
It's not the more you practice the better. It's the better you practice the better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-09-27 13:16
Phew..... blimey...... strewth......... etc.
Am I right in thinking that Dave Brubeck in a similar situation replied
"White man speak with Forked Tongue"?........... H n'P.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
