 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ez
Date: 2009-08-13 05:33
Why can't other manufacturers just use the design of Vandorren and then sell them cheaper? I mean, it just doesn't make sense at all. It is a simple thing to fabricate. B45 is more expensive than most of my clarinets (frm ebay).
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-13 05:50
I manufacture mouthpieces and I can tell you that it is NOT at all "simple". It is also not at all "cheap".
As far as just "copying" the another company's mouthpiece and selling under a different name, that is one step away from counterfeit.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to get sued !!!
Finally, $70US for a mouthpiece is not expensive- that is just about as cheap as you can get for something that actually makes sound.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-13 13:35
Most of the mouthpieces I have been using over the past 5 years or so sell for around $200 or so. If you can find what you need in a Vandoren for the $70, consider yourself fortunate to have gotten off so cheaply.
There is great variance from one mouthpiece to another (even in the same model). I know Walter Grabner keeps meticulous records by serial numbers of all aspects of each mouthpiece he sells, so he can produce another one as close as possible to the one you have, should a problem such as loss or destruction of the piece occur. This way, you have a better chance of finding that good mouthpiece all over again.
Jeff
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-13 14:17
"I know Walter Grabner keeps meticulous records by serial numbers"
I do the same, and even if all the numbers add up, the 2 pieces STILL play a little differently.
But the main point is that it's not easy.
Post Edited (2009-08-13 14:18)
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-13 15:09
Without directly commenting on the idea of fabricating B-45 copies, and I am not sure why that was picked as the Holy Grail of mouthpieces, I do find a general frustration among newer students and their parents concerning the cost of mouthpieces, ligatures and reeds when searching for a setup that works.
This is a costly thing for a family if their child is trying to decide if they really want to play or they want to upgrade. Reeds at $2-$3 a piece that don't work or get damaged in some creative way, small pieces of metal or leather to hold the reed that cost $15-$40, a mouthpiece upgrade because they are told what comes with a brand new clarinet or rental is not good enough, the cost of published lesson material is more expensive than it needs to be...etc.
To these folks $70 is not cheap.
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-08-13 15:15
Yes, $70 is not cheap to me, either. My parents won't buy anything more for me by way of clarinet stuff, so I have to buy my own. At my part-time job, $70 is a weeks wages, and I need to save every dollar I can for university. Even if I wanted to order a bunch of mouthpieces to try, the shipping fees and restocking charges alone would be horrible, let alone the cost of the mouthpiece itself!
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-13 15:51
"$50k a year college isn't cheap either"
I am not trying to be argumentative but I don't understand your point.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-13 16:14
For new students, a B45 isn't really necessary. A new student can get by with the many excellent mouthpieces out there such as the Hite Premiere, The Fobes Debut, etc. These list for under $30 at most sites, so you really don't need to spend the big bucks on a higher level mouthpiece to start off with.
After the student has outgrown the ones mentioned above, after a few years, a new mouthpiece might be in order, if the teacher says so. My daughter started out on the Selmer HS* that was in the case with my wife's old Evette Master Model. This served her just fine until a couple of years ago. After going through several dozen different mouthpiece samples at her teacher's studio, they decided the VD M13 suited her best. At that point, I ordered in 3 or 4 of them to find the best one we could get at the time. Had the local shop had more than the one bad copy they had in stock at the time, it would have been even less expensive, as we could have tried them out in-store, with no shipping or cleaning fees involved.
Jeff
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-13 16:39
I teach for my enjoyment and I think I have something to offer beginning and intermediate students. That is .....teaching the fundamentals of playing and theory, and getting them to enjoy and work at their craft. I am not ashamed to say that if I believe I have an exceptional player, I hand them off to teachers who I believe can take them farther than I can.
I find my way into grade school and middle schools in a few upscale suburbs and it is disappointing to see a drop in the number of wind music students even in schools that have traditionally strong music programs.
When I talk to the directors and parents it is all about the money. Learning to play music is expensive and for most families it is a luxury. For families that have a child or two that have a passion for it the financial sacrifices are great.
My goal as a teacher is to keep the student playing and advancing even with all the turmoil that surrounds pre-teens and teenagers. I don't think that a student needs to have a designer mouthpiece that costs anywhere from $200-$600, although I use a couple and I have a few students who do as well. Those numbers scare folks away. I also believe that most very good high school students, except those at the very highest level, will never need any instrument above the level of a Yamaha 450, or something of that nature. I believe that I always have to pay attention to he money when I am advising others on how to spend theirs.
That is my rant for today.
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2009-08-14 22:44
Well said, a lot of excellent points. As a young teacher, I have learned much from your posts. Thanks!
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Author: Alfred
Date: 2009-08-15 22:11
I personally didn't like the B45 because it just wasn't the mouthpiece for me. If they made all mouthpieces like that, I'd be, quite simply, S.O.L.
And $70, like everyone said, is as cheap as mouthpieces get. I bought my B45 with allowance money after freshman year of high school because my 5RV lyre broke. Yes, broke. My clarinet's middle cork was too loose and the top joint fell off and utterly obliterated the tip of my mouthpiece.
Anywho, I'm about to buy one for college, and I'd kill to have a Grabner mouthpiece that played well and sold for $70.
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Author: Alfred
Date: 2009-08-15 22:34
That mouthpiece got me nowhere last year when I took auditions; it was the worst year, musically, I've had in my short, short career.
Ditching it was the best thing I've ever done.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2009-08-15 22:50
I bought a Vandoren B45 about 4 or 5 years ago, and I'm still using it, it is giving me a good sound! So think about the time involved, once you get the mouthpiece and like it, you won't be buying a new one for a long, long time. The initial investment is well worth it.
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Author: Maestro_6
Date: 2009-08-16 17:24
I used a B45 a while ago right after a Hite Premier, which was right after a terrible Vito mouthpiece that came with my old, old student horn. After I went and tried the Hite Premier again, the results were far better. As a very advanced student myself, I could not imagine playing that stuffy ol' thing. Just remember that this was MY experience, and may not be quite the same for yourself. Test a variety!
Of course, now I'm sticking to a $100 Gigliotti P and am doing more than fine for my student career. My vote for a student mouthpiece is Hite Premier...
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2009-08-16 18:08
One problem with mouthpieces in general is that there are so many makers making pieces that picking some to try can be mind numbing. Also, my experiences with the Zinner mouthpieces are all very similar. They all kind of sound the same to me. They are well made and the initial play test makes you believe this is such a great piece and worth the money, a few weeks later you realize you want something different but you are out 200 bucks or more.
It's hard for young players to know how to choose what is best for them while at the same time ignoring trends or what so and so plays on. I was in this camp for a long time and I wasted a lot of money buying pieces that I became dissatisfied with after a month or two. Looking back on the process, I would have never known what works best for me and what helps me achieve my concept without buying numerous pieces. Experience is the best teacher.
My advice to young players and my students is to stick with Vandoren. Once you have tried and lived with all of their models with no success, then you can go the boutique root. Vandoren offers enough variety of facings and chambers that one should be able to get a sense of what works for them. Most importantly, students have to learn that the most critical part of choosing a mouthpiece is how does it feel and respond. Tone is always my last concern.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-08-16 18:38
My best mouthpiece is a Behn Ouverture for some $35. Either that, a Fobes Debut or a Hite Premiere. I have them all, and I like them better than the "same league" Vandorens.
(fixed embarrassing typo)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2009-08-16 18:48)
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-16 18:43
I agree that the amount of choices is confusing.
I have 3 mouthpieces that I insist my students use. The Fobes Debut, Hite Premier and Gennusa Intermediate. All these are around $30. I spend a couples of lessons with new students rotating these mouthpieces to see what is comfortable for them and what produces a nice sound. Particularly with the Fobes, some very good players have used them for many years. I also insist they use VanDoren V-12s because, in regards to strength, you pretty much know what you are getting
I am much more opinionated about the mouthpieces and reeds for new students than the clarinet. Personally, I do not use VanDorens and I don't play on a Fobes or a Gennusa or a Hite.
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-08-18 14:20
While we're on the subject. I've used a B45 for years on regular clarinet. I bought a bass clari last year (YCL221 II) and finally had my first clarinet lesson, just to make sure I was not doing anything too drastically wrong on the big horn. The teacher (who rides a motorbike) just brought his own bass clari mouthpiece along, a B45, and let me try it -- and it felt just great.
So I ordered a B45 bass clarinet mouthpiece through the shop. This was in March last year. I actually packed the bass clari away months ago, deciding to wait until I got the mp. What's happened is that twice the shop received a B40. They then tried ordering direct from mouthpieceexpress.com -- who said there were no B45 bass clari mouthpieces available. I e-mailed mouthpieceexpress myself, and got no reply. I phoned the importer here in Johannesburg, and they said no, they also only had a B40 in stock -- I presume this is the other one that was delivered! -- they were the people who had actually ordered the B45 for me.
I've told the shop I'm going to try the B40 this Saturday -- I've seen some comments on the board that the B40 bass clari mp is a good option, so it's worth a try. But I know the B45 really felt good, and I'm wondering, are these really unobtainable at present? I really need something that is going to project, I work in horrendous circumstances soundwise, with rock and jive bands, and I really need what someone on this board described as the "paint-stripping" qualities of the B45. Will the B40 crack it? I wish I could try both the B40s in town, but they're in different shops far separated.
Anything I should look for? And is 17 months not a long time to wait for a mouthpiece order from Vandoren, only for the item to be unobtainable? Seems a bit weird to me?
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-08-19 07:50
Thanks very much for this. I'll try the B40 and see, otherwise I'll have to try find a friend with a credit card and order one of these.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2009-08-19 13:21
I'm informed that the B45 isn't a good one to use in orchestra: it's too bright and too open. Sample opinion: "it sounds like a B45 bomber aircraft".
Assuming that's so: what would be a better choice?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-19 13:30
For soprano or bass? There is a difference.
For orchestral use (granted t wasn't at a high level orchestra), I survived nicely with a hand finished piece by David Hitd from a few decades ago. Since then, I have had excellent result with three different mouthpieces, all from various Zinner blanks. One from Ted Lane, one from Walter Grabner and one from Greg Smith. I still use the last two. (All of these were soprano clarinets, btw).
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-08-19 13:31)
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-08-20 14:40
Well, since no one makes a B52 mouthpiece (the heavy bomber sound that would work best in the settings I operate in) I'll try the B40 on Saturday, they've got it waiting for me.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-20 14:50
For a unique and more "traditional" sound, you might want to investigate the "B-17." If you want to bomb out the croud, that might do it. Especially when playing "A Mighty (Flying) Fortress." ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-08-20 14:51)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-08-20 15:25
JJAlbrecht wrote:
> For a unique and more "traditional" sound, you might want to
> investigate the "B-17."
Heard that out in Willow Run ... too buzzy for my taste. The B-25 has a lot sexier sound - as long as you're not in Tokyo.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-20 15:47
I actually got to ride the '17 at Willow Run a few years back. It was an impressive and interesting experience. Very educational, too!
Jeff
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-17 11:27
I tried that B40 bass clari mouthpiece a couple of weeks ago ... it was OK, but it just didn't have that "oomph" I felt when I tried the B45 at my one and only (so far) clarinet lesson. That was over 18 months ago, but I remember that sensation very well -- especially finding the upper-register notes just "there", instead of being hidden in a blur of harmonics.
Going back to Jeff's post: Woodwind & Brasswind inform me: "We do have the B45 bass mouth piece but due to Vandoren restrictions we can not ship that outside the US 48 states."
Muncy Winds: Their inquiry form itself is limited to the US, Canada and Mexico, I can't even fill in the form to submit an enquiry ...
1stop clarinet: I've sent two e-mails, no reply.
As I said, mouthpieceexpress.com told the music shop here that the B45 bass mp was unavailable, and they failed to answer two e-mails I sent them.
So I'm stuck, and the trouble is, I've now got a band that is *really* crying out for a bass clari, but I'm not going to try compete with a seriously honkin' trombone without a decent mouthpiece.
Any further suggestions? Still all seems a bit weird to me.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-17 17:23
Vandoren Mouthpiece are the least expensive professional quality mouthpiece of anything on the market. If they're more expensive than your clarinets I would think you're using junk. I know of many professional quality mouthpiece that sell for 5 -6 even 7 what a Vandoren mouthpiece costs up to $500 plus in some cases. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-17 17:29
'The B45 not a good orchestral mouthpiece.' Every player has different needs and tastes other wise there wouldn't be so many mouthpieces on the market. You may think the B45 stinks and someone else thinks it great. Try before you buy. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: davyd
Date: 2009-09-18 14:28
Ed Palanker wrote:
> 'The B45 not a good orchestral mouthpiece.' Every player has
> different needs and tastes other wise there wouldn't be so many
> mouthpieces on the market. You may think the B45 stinks and
> someone else thinks it great. Try before you buy. ESP
> http://eddiesclarinet.com
It's the other way around; I like the B45 but my colleague doesn't. I've been using it for several years and am wondering if I should try something different but don't know where to start.
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-18 15:59
I know that the B45 works for me, I just can't get one!!
Why is Vandoren not supplying Africa? The Vandoren agent here placed three separate orders over 18 months, Vandoren supply the wrong item twice and the third time say "We're out of stock." Strange, and very frustrating.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2009-09-18 19:17
As a student myself I played around with "cheap" mouthpieces and discovered that for this beginner a small tip opening and long facing was the most reed and player friendly. I find that the Vandoren B15 does it for me.
If you want something cheap:-
http://www.ferrismusic.co.uk/clarinets/mouthpieces/clarinet-mouthpiece-p-684.html
I bought a couple and played around facing them myself - very educational!
Tony
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-23 09:12
And now mouthpieceexpress.com have come back to me. They can offer me a B44, but not a B45 for bass clari.
I keep hearing that the world is in a retail slump. Here you have someone who really wants to buy an item from you, but you just won't supply it. Hullo, Vandoren? Maybe someone else *should* start manufacturing the B45?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-23 13:24
Maybe you could contact Vandoren directly. It might yield better results than going through dealers who are unable or unwilling to fill your needs. See what they might be able to do for you.
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-23 15:10
Well, I've tried to contact Vandoren. I filled in the "contact" form on their website carefully, and got an error message saying "Les Erreurs - Format mail incorrect". I've quadruple-checked everything, I can't see anything wrong.
Their FAQ says: "Unfortunately, we’re not in a position to supply our products directly to consumers. Our products are available at leading retailers of musical instruments and accessories. If your local retailer does not stock the particular products you’re interested in, the retailer can either order them directly from our factory or through his wholesale distributor."
I've tried the local wholesale distributor, this was the person who told me Vandoren said it was "unobtainable".
Any further suggestions??
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-23 15:36
Well, since you can't get the B45, I would suggest contacting some of the sposors of this BB. look at Ben Redwine, Clark Fobes, Walter Grabner, and Gregory Smith for starters. let them lnow what you're looking for, and maybe they have one of their own mouthpieces which will offer you a similar sound and feel to the B45. I use both Grabner and Smith mouthpieces and they are great, if not inexpensive. Still, with mouthpieces, you get what you pay for.
As a final suggestion for dealing with Vandoren, try sending them a real letter....you remember: the things we all used to write on paper? See if you have any luck that way.
Jeff
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-23 15:36
Actually, I tried again, this time putting in my gmail address instead of my work e-mail, and it went through. Seems they don't like e-mail addresses ending ".co.za". Let's see what they say.
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Author: crazy karlos
Date: 2009-09-25 10:59
Vandoren say to the local importer, cc'd to me:
"We are a bit surprised as B45 for bass clarinet are perfectly obtainable (CM344). We guess there has been a misunderstanding and would be more than happy to help him obtain satisfaction very quickly.
"Can you please contact him and sort this out ?
"We are at your disposal if you need us to send you quickly a CM344."
I've liaised with the importer, they are making a plan. Let's see!
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-25 18:10
Finally, a little light at the end of the tunnel. And it is most likely NOT the headlamp of an oncoming train!
Jeff
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