 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-07-17 03:51
Many of us have been taught to be still while playing and let our fingers express the music. Indeed, we find others playing near us distracting if they move too much. Yet, in an interesting article about Cumulative Trauma Disorder (CTD), one of the preventative measures is to:
“ Allow your body to move freely to the music while you are playing. Static posture, and the requirements of some instruments to be held against gravity can cause fatigue in selected muscle groups and decreased time to recovery. Fluid movements of the head, neck, shoulders, and arms periodically throughout the piece will allow shared muscle recruitment and greater recovery time of fatigued muscles. This can decrease tension and increase blood supply to muscles required to work the most.”
Apparently, clarinetist such as Sabine Meyers are on the right tract, and should not be chastised for expressing music in their body movement.
The full list of prevent measure is here.
http://www.nismat.org/ptcor/ctd_music/index.html
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-17 14:04
Now, try moving around while you're playing bass clarinet sitting down and using a floor peg. Ha! Look and feel like an idiot, dontcha?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-17 14:56
As long as the movement is natural and not being "put on" I never have a problem with it. It is true that some players, and certainly not only clarinet players, move to distraction but it's what comes out in the music that counts. I'd much rather watch someone move around when they play then sit like a zombie.
Self expression comes in different ways for different players.
By the way David S, I've seen bass clarinet players stand while playing, either with a back brace strap and or a very long peg, which I think looks funny by the way. I've seen some of them "move around" too. But, it's what comes out at the other end of the horn that counts. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-07-17 15:23
I rccall a quote from a NY Phil player years ago; he was asked what he thought of Lennies conducting, he replied, "it's great if you don't look up!"
Then there was Fritz Reiner, whose beat was so small at times to be almost insvisible. It's said at one rehearsal a player broke out a pair of binoculars and pointed them is the maestros direction;
Reiner asked him "What are you looking for?! The player replied "I'm looking for your beat!"
Clarinet Redux
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-17 15:41
"Now, try moving around while you're playing bass clarinet sitting down and using a floor peg. Ha! Look and feel like an idiot, dontcha?"
If it is on a peg the physical strain is much less than if you have to carry it. This research points to physical aspects, not musical ones.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-17 16:56
I've seen bass clarinetists in recital (good ones, too) play standing, and prop their instruments up on what looked like black foam cinderblock-size things. Seemed to work for them, and didn't seem to impair their swimming abilities any. (!)
On the other hand, you've got someone like Louis Sclavis, a bass virtuoso who plays standing with (I think) a sax neckstrap attached to one hook. There's video of him out there on the net, worth checking out.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-07-18 05:18
Don't forget that moving the clarinet modulates the pitch heard by the audience through the Doppler effect --an adjunct to expressivity according to a technical paper I read a few months ago.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-07-18 15:11
>>I'd much rather watch someone move around when they play then sit like a zombie.>
Unless, of course, the musicians move around like zombies, which quite a few of them do.
BEWARE!
ATTACK OF THE ZOMBIE CLARINETISTS!
COMING SOON TO A THEATER NEAR YOU!
They're the walking dead, armed with deadly Buffets and Leblancs! They LURCH back and forth! They STAGGER from side to side! QUAIL WITH HORROR as they bob up and down like evil bobble-head dolls!
SEE their clarinets jerk around stiffly as they wail, "Waaaooooow, waaaaaoooow, WAAAAOOOOOOW!" Run screaming from the Dopler shift from Hell!
Filmed in Screech-O-Rama! A Registered Nurse will stand by in the lobby, ready to rescue those who FAINT FROM FRIGHT while watching...
ATTACK OF THE ZOMBIE CLARINETISTS!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2009-07-19 00:47
“For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect#Audio
Motion of the source=clarinetist
Motion of the observer=audience.
Motion of the medium=air-conditioned auditorium, fan blown cabaret, outdoors, etc.
If the above is correct, then much more than the minimal amount of difference caused by the Doppler effect that can be heard by an audience is at play in a live concert.
Nonetheless, the post is actually about the importance of learning to play without developing a physical ailment or disability that leads to playing poorly or not playing at all. Restriction of movement increases stress and/or muscular tension that leads to problems such as clarinetist’s thumb, or other painful problems suffered by clarinetists.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-07-19 00:57
I watched those two amazing French clarinetist practicing together on U-tube recently and though they were obviously highly skilled players their excessive body movement was ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a little movement but watching those two I got the impression they were 'laying it on ' a bit.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-07-19 00:58)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-07-19 11:50
>>There is nothing wrong with a little movement but watching those two I got the impression they were 'laying it on ' a bit.
>>
Yes -- kidding aside, that's the kind of movement that bothers me, when the musicians apparently think their gyrations are entertaining while I think they're distracting. Well-intentioned teachers may create these monsters by accident, by advising nervous performers to loosen up instead of planting themselves like rigid fence posts. It's good advice, but the nervous performer who makes a conscious, determined, difficult effort to *pretend* to loosen up (instead of allowing his or her body to move naturally in a relaxed way) is likely to spaz out up there and draw attention to the forced, unnatural body language.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-07-19 15:57
Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg has the last (word) in meaningless physical movements on stage. It's not often you hear a performance of the Sibelius Violin Concerto called "junk." It's all put on...when she performs for her friends or people who know her all the showboating nonsense is gone.
It's all documented on the dvd Speaking in Strings...a great documentary generally speaking.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-07-20 00:09
Barry Vincent wrote:
<<I watched those two amazing French clarinetist practicing together on U-tube recently and though they were obviously highly skilled players their excessive body movement was ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a little movement but watching those two I got the impression they were 'laying it on ' a bit.>>
To me they just looked like a couple of friends having some musical fun. What's wrong with that?
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-07-20 07:14
Hey! Didn't we just have a discussion about predjudices? Seems like a lot of those answers could apply to this thread. <grin>
If you close your eyes, does the movement matter? If so, then I'd say the movement is a problem...otherwise, if they want to look silly, let them look silly...music is, afterall, about sound, right? (Look at what those evil movements did for Elvis Presley...totally destroyed him...so distracting from the music and...oh wait!) Same with Pete Fountain, Alphonse Picou, and many, many others.
Having said that, I think it is the responsibility of the conductor to choose what to allow. It is the conductor's responsibility to keep improperly dressed performers off the stage. It is the conductor's responsibility to deal with absent/tardy players. It is the conductor's responsibility to keep uniformity in the performing group. Conductors impose a certain code of "conduct" over more than just music...I would think issues like body movement would also have this same authority of "conduct" imposed.
Then again, I'm a trad jazz guy, so what do I know about conductors?
<This post was submitted partly in jest and partly in truth, so please take it in the lighthearted tongue-in-cheek manner which it was intended>
With Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-07-21 15:23
Perhaps we all should allow Mr Simeon Bellison the revisor of the H. Lazarus Method for Clarinet to have the last word on this subject . It is advice which is still valid today . "When performing before an audience, bear a calm appearance, emit the sounds without showing externally the difficulties that have to be overcome; it will greatly impress those around you with the apparent facility of your execution. On the other hand; it would offer the company some temptation to laugh if you were to move your head, balance the body, raise the shoulders as a mark of expression, fill the cheeks with wind". Direct quote from Vol 1 Page 18.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2009-07-21 15:55
Here's a different point of view; One of our woodwind quintet members went to a chamber music concert and said it was like listening to a CD and looking at a photograph. Part of it may have had to do with other aspects of audience engagement, but she thought part of it was marked lack of movement among the players.
I remember going to a jazz club once and the pianist/front man was very gregarious and expressive physically. The backup guys were "cool" but engaged with the audience in a different way. They were all fantastic musicians.
Barb
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-21 16:02
Another possibility is that when someone is bothered by a player moving "too much" the problem could be with them being annoyed by it, not the player who is moving. They can try to solve that psychological problem. This is just as likely when a person is SURE the problem is not them, just like some people get very angry for no real reason, and they are sure smoeone really did something to make them angry, as opposed to them having any sort of problem.....
>> Perhaps we all should allow Mr Simeon Bellison the revisor of the H.
>> Lazarus Method for Clarinet to have the last word on this subject.
Definitely shouldn't allow anyone to have the last word on a subject that has anything to do with music.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-07-21 18:38
Simeon Bellison wrote:
<<On the other hand; it would offer the company some temptation to laugh if you were to move your head, balance the body, raise the shoulders as a mark of expression, fill the cheeks with wind.>>
Oh dear, we can't have people laugh at us, now can we?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ4fOKnSYOM
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-07-21 18:43
I highly recommend watching Pete Fountain play Tiger Rag on youtube. If he can sound that good playing and dancing, then I think I'm okay with movement. (Catch the look on his face at 1:28-1:31 - fantastic!)
Man, now that I listened to that I'm all worked up and gotta go play!
With Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-07-21 23:59
I think the laugh that Mr Simeon Bellison was referring to was the laugh of derision not the laugh of happiness. Also Bellison was giving instruction to orchestra /chamber music players, not Jazz performers of which his Method gives no instruction. Jazz is an entirely different animal. I think the appropriate word is EXCESSIVE movement. In fact I find it impossible to sit or stand absolutely still, there is always a little movement such as changing your standing position, marking out the downbeat slightly with the instrument, ect otherwise you'd look like a fence post . Oh, and you do have to breathe sometimes you know
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-07-22 03:58)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-07-22 09:57
Thanks for that youtube FDF. Now there's a top notch Clarinetist if ever there was one. The body movement that he indulges in is quite acceptable simply because he is a professional player and uses movement at accents, phrasing ect . I particularly like the way he occasionally held the instrument up high for what I assume was more projection. However the great majority of us are someplace else altogether and it is unfortunate that many of us indulge in excessive body movement thinking that maybe somehow this will give the impression that we are approaching the heights that players like Stanley are at. The rule that most of must learn first off is to get good technique up to standard. Relax, don't "bung-it-on" thinking that this is going to make you look good playing in front of people. You will only end up looking like a clown. Let the fingers do the walkin and the Clarinet do the talkin (or rather Singin) Then just maybe sometime in the future you will be where Stanley is at and then you just might get away with the "Moves'
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-07-22 10:02)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-07-22 14:34
Sittting in the audience is one thing, but sitting in the ensemble is another. It is very distracting when playing metrically complex music to find someone in your peripheral vision is moving "in time" with their off beats, counter rhythms etc. when all you want to see in the corner of your eye is the conductor's baton marking out what he/she knows the players need to execute the passage. The extraneous movement of the player then has to be mentally disentangled from the conductor's movement which is a major extra distraction. Lord knows what the conductor feels if he/she also notices the invasive movement of such a player. I have yet to see a conductor ask a player to stop doing it, but I would be grateful if they did.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-07-22 16:15
Barry wrote:
<<The body movement that he indulges in is quite acceptable simply because he is a professional player and uses movement at accents, phrasing ect .>>
Umm...Those two guys from France are professionals and their movements coincided with their phrasing and accents, too.
The difference between them and Drucker is that Drucker was putting on a serious performance in front of a live audience and the Parisian clarinetists were just goofing around on camera. They were *trying* to be a little silly (something a lot of amateurs I know would be too self-conscious to do in front of a global internet audience).
I don't want to belabor this topic, but I don't believe there is one set of rules for professionals and another for amateurs. Good is good and bad is bad, whether you're getting paid for it or not. For some people some physical movement is natural to them when they play. For others it is not. I disagree with the notion that being a professional entitles someone to "get away" with more than an amateur can.
On the same note, I don't think that being a professional (even a top professional) means that one should be immune from criticism. For instance, I find Drucker's use of vibrato in this piece questionable. But you don't have to take my word for it--I'm content to give Simeon Bellison the last word on vibrato. 
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-07-22 18:29
>>It is very distracting when playing metrically complex music to find someone in your peripheral vision is moving "in time" with their off beats, counter rhythms etc. when all you want to see in the corner of your eye is the conductor's baton marking out what he/she knows the players need to execute the passage. >>
Even worse: some people dance in their chairs and even tap their feet completely out of sync with the rhythm. They play in time but their bodies boogie to a different drummer. We had one of those people in the viola section of my high school orchestra. She sat right in front of me and she drove me bughouse.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2009-07-22 19:35
I was referring to the random lifting of the foot/leg in a quasi-spasm rather than the pedaling.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-07-22 19:49
brycon wrote:
> I was referring to the random lifting of the foot/leg in a
> quasi-spasm rather than the pedaling.
Aha! A drummer!
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-07-22 21:15
Which is worse: being distracted by someone else's movements while playing off-beats, or being the someone else who is trying to play those off-beats?
And to see excellent musicianship with a minimum of extraneous movement, attend a concert by the U.S. Marine Band.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-22 21:33
>>>mrn wrote:
Barry wrote:
<<The body movement that he indulges in is quite acceptable simply because he is a professional player and uses movement at accents, phrasing ect .>>
Umm...Those two guys from France are professionals and their movements coincided with their phrasing and accents, too.
The difference between them and Drucker is that Drucker was putting on a serious performance in front of a live audience and the Parisian clarinetists were just goofing around on camera. They were *trying* to be a little silly (something a lot of amateurs I know would be too self-conscious to do in front of a global internet audience).
I don't want to belabor this topic, but I don't believe there is one set of rules for professionals and another for amateurs. Good is good and bad is bad, whether you're getting paid for it or not. For some people some physical movement is natural to them when they play. For others it is not. I disagree with the notion that being a professional entitles someone to "get away" with more than an amateur can.
On the same note, I don't think that being a professional (even a top professional) means that one should be immune from criticism. For instance, I find Drucker's use of vibrato in this piece questionable. But you don't have to take my word for it--I'm content to give Simeon Bellison the last word on vibrato. <<<
I wholeheartedly agree with you except one thing: Simeon Bellison hasn’t got the last word on vibrato. Noone has!
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Author: antaresclar
Date: 2009-07-22 23:22
Here is a little more moving around for you all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCvg8-jPHa0
GZ.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2009-07-24 00:32
I find it very distracting to have the clarinet player in a trad jazz jam set next to me going through some wild shoulder movements that look like he is going to have an orgasm any minute.
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Author: chipper
Date: 2009-07-24 18:10
Sounds like movement should meld ettiquite, technique and emotion. My lessons these days focus primaraly on the biomechanics of making sound. I'm using both the clarinet and the alto sax. I've noticed different natural movements for the two instruments and different movements for the different musical styles. Although I'm not a fencepost for the clarinet chamber duets we play I'm not as animated as for the wailing sax improvs. But I am learning that unless I pay attention to my airway and embrochure the movements really mess up my sound. My instructor is forever adjusting my posture and stance. If she could put me in a body cast she would. Although in all honesty I find the sound of the sax messy enough that movement has less effect there than on the clarinet.
Peace
C
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2009-07-25 23:58
I think it looks really strange if players are completely still.
I think the minimisation of movement links to some sort of modernist ideology which trims everything to its bare essentials, which then forms some sort of 'truth'. In this mode of thinking, anything extraneous to the bare essentials is somehow false. In musical terms, the idea goes something like this: You should be able to realise your musical ideas as efficiently as possible.
I know I'm paraphrasing to my advantage here, but I think its a pretty absurd idea. Take the example of speech. A great number of people use physical gestures when they speak, both publicly and privately. Under the 'bare essentials' philosophy, there's no reason to use those gestures. Why, if we just spoke clearer, then we have no idea for these extraneous physical gestures (or perhaps any body language! unless we're in a situation where sound isn't allowed...). I don't think many people would entertain the idea. Controlling physical gesture perhaps, eliminating it no.
I can smell the objection already - music isn't talking. Correct. But we can link step by step. Take vocal performance. I don't think there is a (good) singer in the world who doesn't use gesture as part of their performance. The whole thing is a show. Imagine a singer standing almost completely still, letting the music 'speak for itself'. Neither can I.
Next objection: playing clarinet isn't singing and we don't have words. So what exactly are we doing? I think we're trying to communicate something. Much like singing, and much like speaking. And we're speaking a language recognisable to millions of people around the world.
So returning to my (perhaps straw-man) modernist ideology. The problem with seeing playing as a process to be streamlined, fails to take into account the complexity of music's appeal, and, in my opinion, blindly acts on an arbitrary principle.
And I think it looks really strange if players stand completely still.
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The Clarinet Pages
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