 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-18 19:12
Hi,
I'm currently playing the Schumann fantasy pieces with my friend, and I have uploaded a video of us playing the first of the three pieces on Youtube. Since there are so many great clarinetists and teachers on this board, I figured it would be interesting to hear what you think about it.
I'm happy to receive any compliments, critique, advice, or whatever crosses your mind when you listen to my recording. Don't be afraid to be too criticizing; I want to know what I need to improve! I myself know a lot of stuff I want to change in my playing, but I'd like to hear what YOU think! =)
oh, and feel free to check out my other youtube videos as well
EDIT: Sorry, forgot the most important part of my post: the link!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnE8cRfWYxo
Post Edited (2009-06-18 19:33)
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-18 19:21
Curinfinwe, thanks for pointing that out. almost fixed now (except I don't know how to make the link "clickable")
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-06-18 19:23
I liked it a lot. I personally play it a little bit dramatic but that's just my way of doing it. You are very musically. So keep up the good work.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-06-18 21:04
That was quite good Victor. You have an excellent characteristic clarinet tone. Your stage deportment was just right (body movements not exaggerated and matched flow of the piece).
I did think you stood a bit too far from the piano...a step back and a step and a half to the your right would have been just about right. I like your style, you did play from memory or as we old timers like to say "by heart." Keep Schumann in your heart and years and years from now when playing this piece you will experience a pleasure so keen you won't believe it!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-18 21:19
thank you so much for those kind words, Old Geezer! And I think you're right about me standing too far away from the piano. I'll remember that the next time I play.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-18 22:25
Very, very nice. In fact, I had to listen several times to find anything to give any kind of criticism/suggestions on.
Here's what I might consider doing differently (feel free to disagree):
1. At 4 before rehearsal letter B (click here to see the copy I'm looking at) I felt like you started the decrescendo a little early. If I were playing this piece, I'd hang onto the forte dynamic a little longer and sing out this part a bit more, waiting to taper off the phrase until just before the end.
2. In the section right after B, I don't really hear the fp's. You could do more with those. (although it could just be the recording)
3. You could make more of the crescendos in the piece. For example, the crescendo 4 bars before D could have been bigger. It sounded like you crescendoed a bar late there.
4. I wouldn't break the slur @ 3 before D. I'd find another place to breathe if you need it.
5. Some of your pianos and pianissimos seem perhaps a little too soft to me. I think I'd try to make dynamic contrast by making your fortes louder and bringing everything up in volume just a hair.
Like I said, though, this was very, very nice. Thanks for sharing.
Post Edited (2009-06-18 23:03)
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2009-06-18 22:52
Very nice job of lyrical playing.....
I played No. 1 on my collegiate senior recital in 1966. Your rendition brought back many, many fond memories. I thoroughly enjoyed your interpretation, and I hope your clarinet career continues to your highest expectations.
Congratulations.
Lynn
Austin, (keep Austin Weird) TX
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Author: Adrianna
Date: 2009-06-19 00:03
What sort of recording equipment are you using? The sound quality was great.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 00:58
I liked the typically Romantic ebb and flow of the tempos, all smoothly done and effective with this piece. The Fantasy Pieces are deadly dull without them. Did you and your pianist work those out and mark the music, or did it just happen somehow (was it intentional)?
Your throat tone intonation was a bit off sometimes, but overall intonation was good.
Nice job.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-06-19 02:37
Nice job!
Here are my thoughts:
Tone is really nice, but loses a little focus and drops in pitch in the throat tones.
My main complaint is that you play it like a clarinet player... which is not all that bad, but I wonder how you might play it after spending a month with "Dichterliebe"... Or perhaps you could listen to other song cycles to get some ideas.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-19 03:20
DAVE wrote:
> My main complaint is that you play it like a clarinet player...
> which is not all that bad, but I wonder how you might play it
> after spending a month with "Dichterliebe"... Or perhaps you
> could listen to other song cycles to get some ideas.
Good suggestion. I second that.
However, do be careful that you find a recording where the singer doesn't sing like a pianist. An example of why this is important is provided in the below link. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47pyTfSrCQ
(Apparently they switched places for fun after the end of their recording session and didn't know the mics were on.)
Post Edited (2009-06-19 04:10)
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-19 09:40
mrn, great suggestions! I will start working on it today:)
Adrianna, the microphone we used was a RODE NT4 stereo mic. The microphone was connected to an M-Audio MicroTrack II. It would have sounded even better if the pianist's dad (who recorded us) had placed the mic closer to us, but he didn't want to disturb the rest of the audience with his recording equipment.
John, we hadn't literally made marks in the music (I actually rarely use sheet music when playing.. maybe that's why I'm such a terrible sight reader...), but we did rehearse it plenty times. This year we have played quite a few things together, so it's almost as if we "know" how each one of us typically phrases. But of course we discuss and plan the dynamics, rits, crescendos, etc.
Dave, yes I actually am struggling with the throat tone intonation on my A-clarinet. They play a bit flat. A shorter barrel won't fix it, because it would make other tones too high in pitch.. :/ But part of the problem could of course be the focus, which you mentioned. Maybe I lose my embouchure or something when going down to the throat tones from the clarion register?
again, thanks for all your comments, I'm off to practice!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 11:21
Victor wrote:
>> Dave, yes I actually am struggling with the throat tone intonation on my A-clarinet. They play a bit flat. A shorter barrel won't fix it, because it would make other tones too high in pitch.. :/>>
You know, don't you, that how you have your throat tones tuned is entirely a matter of choice? Slightly enlarging the relevant holes has no effect on the rest of the instrument. And indeed, sometimes these notes change over the life of an instrument due to movement of the wood, so you need not fear that you are doing something against the design of the instrument.
I agree with others that your performance is very good. Congratulations to you (and your colleague) on playing the pianissimo chord near the end ACTUALLY PIANISSIMO (the one where you have a Gb that then crescendos in order to prepare the piano's final desperate outburst). Many people ruin that magic moment by crescendoing TO the Gb.
Further, if you make an effort, you can avoid taking a breath at that moment, and then, playing what Schumann wrote, the effect is even more powerful. It's as though the phrase leading to the Gb is 'tired', and then DURING the Gb you realise that the situation is worse than you thought. (Hence the crescendo.) Also play the Gb as a 'focussed' pp -- then it can crescendo without changing its nature.
Well done!
Tony
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 13:42
Very nice playing, indeed! You are very musical and your legato playing is admirable.
Far be it for me to disagree with Tony Pay, but you might want to try other barrels to correct the intonation problems with your A clarinet. I've experienced similar throat tone flattness that was easily fixed with the "right" barrel.
Takes guts to expose yourself in this venue, but you brought it off in fine style!
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra, Washington (retired)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 14:29
Larry wrote:
>> Far be it for me to disagree with Tony Pay, but you might want to try other barrels to correct the intonation problems with your A clarinet.>>
I thought he said that didn't work, because it made the rest of the instrument too sharp.
The reason I said what I did is that quite a few people don't realise that you can sharpen (and flatten, incidentally) throat notes, thinking that you're spozed to put up with them the way the Lord made them.
Tony
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 17:40
Just switching to a shorter barrel only addresses part of the problem. Bore mismatch mouthpiece/barrel is a common cause of flat throat tones. Certain types of large chamber mouthpieces will affect throat tones disproportionally. The late Hans Moennig made a career of altering Buffet clarinets to play in tune with Henri Chedeville mouthpieces by boring out the undercutting (frazing)of the throat tones. Unfortunately that made them unplayable with almost everything else..
Vials might also have the pad clearances of his F#/G, G# and A raised a bit; that has worked for some of my students/colleagues and myself.
Re: "I thought he said that didn't work, because it made the rest of the instrument too sharp", I thing he said that he didn't think it would work.
Sometimes what actually works can defy logic!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 18:00
Larry wrote:
>> Sometimes what actually works can defy logic!>>
No, I wouldn't go as far as that:-)
I see what you mean about trying different barrels; but I don't understand why you'd be against altering the tone-holes slightly, if the rest of the instrument is satisfactory. (Different barrels affect the high register too.) These toneholes aren't sacrosanct, and as I said, can alter slightly. If done carefully, the procedure is reversible.
He might even find that there's gunk in the holes when he looks -- quite often there is, especially if the student is a keen swabber.
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 18:40
Victor -
You did so many lovely things. Each of the compliments is well deserved. Now you need to take it to the next level.
Clarinetists -- really all instrumental soloists -- learn music in the practice room. You play alone, working out each phrase. Now you need to learn the piece again, working out the complex interplay with the pianist. This means:
(1) Study the piano part and learn the harmonic movement. Your phrases need to be shaped to coincide with the harmony. Read the section "PHRASING IS BASED ON HARMONY" in my posting on the Beethoven 8th solo http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=768&t=768.
Harmony is the basis of phrasing. A chord is like a bone in the skeleton. Changes of chord are like joints. The muscles have a shape and can move parts of the body only because they are attached to the skeleton. To understand how phrases work, you must know what the underlying harmony is and what it's doing.
Thus, from now on, work from the score. Take a pencil and put in a vertical mark every time the harmony changes. These marks will show you where your phrases begin and end, or at least change direction.
You already have the clarinet part memorized. Now, in the practice room, let your fingers play the clarinet part while you read the bass line, hearing the harmonic changes and "draping" the clarinet part over them.
For example, the first phrase does not begin on your entrance, but on the piano entrance. You start playing in your mind with the pianist's entrance, entering on your Eb as a continuation of the pianist's phrase.
The harmony then changes on the next note D, but not on the third note Ab. Therefore, the Ab is not the principal note of the phrase, even though it's the highest note. In your YouTube performance, the Ab has the same full, resonant tone as the D, and then you pull back for the descending scale beginning on G. What the harmony requires is different. The Ab is the weak note of the phrase and needs to be less loud than the D. The Ab is a pickup to the following G, so the G has to be stronger, as the first note of the next phrase.
The harmony on the descending scale G F Eb D doesn't change, so you play it as a group, heading down to the C. The C is an appoggiatura to the following B. Therefore, instead of pushing the phrase through the C to the B, as you do, you need to play the feminine phrase ending, relaxing off the C to the B.
The entire movement needs this kind of detailed working out.
(2) Study the clarinet/piano exchanges. In the Beethoven 8th posting, read the section "IT'S NOT A GROUP OF SOLOS." Just as in the Beethoven, the Schumann is not a group of clarinet phrases, but a nearly continuous song, with you and the piano constantly handing off the melody and working off each other's phrases. It's like a basketball fast break, where two players never dribble the ball, but toss it back and forth until one of them has the easy layup. The music doesn't exist just in your part. It comes into being only when you and the pianist collaborate.
(3) Finally, you need to put a lot more feeling into it. This is passionate music, with kaleidoscopic changes. There's a wonderful master class with Steven Isserlis showing what this involves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq77Dqey1Rw
Work this out and record it for us again, this time reaching out to the audience with intense feeling. They should almost be in tears by the time you finish.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-19 20:46
Ken Shaw wrote:
>> You did so many lovely things. Each of the compliments is well deserved. Now you need to take it to the next level.>>
Well, of course, that's true. I wouldn't have made the observation myself, though, because the things you can improve will probably occur quite naturally in your relationship with your teacher. They're things like, a more even legato; a more homogeneous sound; a better fingering for top Eb:-)
However, I'm now forced to point out that you don't need to hear a generalisation like "Phrasing is based on harmony", because that isn't true in this piece, and so you shouldn't obey it. (I'm sorry to have to tell Ken that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but I owe it to Schumann to set the record straight. He's a more important friend of mine than Ken is.)
That Ken is explicitly at odds with Schumann is evident in paragraph 6 of his (1), after he has exhorted you to mark in the harmony changes:
>> The harmony then changes on the next note D, but not on the third note Ab. Therefore, the Ab is not the principal note of the phrase, even though it's the highest note. In your YouTube performance, the Ab has the same full, resonant tone as the D, and then you pull back for the descending scale beginning on G. What the harmony requires is different. The Ab is the weak note of the phrase and needs to be less loud than the D. The Ab is a pickup to the following G, so the G has to be stronger, as the first note of the next phrase.>>
But the fact is, Schumann writes an expressive accent on the Ab, independently of the harmony, precisely so that it IS the principal note of the falling phrase. (You can see that the structure of all of your part, to begin with, is to rise by a relatively large interval in order to fall expressively by step. That's what makes your line 'lament'.) Schumann does it again on your Bb, in bar 7, also independently of the harmony, so that he can fall by step again. Then the accent in bar 9 is with the harmonic change, but still introduces a falling phrase.
What this means is that the phrasing, far from being based on harmony, is an autonomous structure that can fall both against and with the harmony -- as indeed it does in classical music like Mozart and Beethoven.
Since phrasing is autonomous, that means that your entry need not be a continuation of the piano line either. Your first Eb, falling to a D, can be the first falling sigh, because you don't need to show the change of harmony. Why should you? The piano is perfectly capable of doing that by himself.
In fact, in general, a division of labour between players, one showing the harmony, the other an independent phrase against the harmony, is a quite common event in classical music.
Notice that from bar 10 onwards, the clarinet line falls in order to rise by step -- the opposite of before.
Ken's paragraph (2), about equality of argument with the piano, is important. You showed yourself aware of that in several important places, though once or twice I wondered whether you were listening enough to your colleague. It's a question of knowing the score.
Ken's paragraph (3), about putting a lot more feeling into it, is not what I would say to you. You certainly need to let the music live the way it wants to, and that involves you understanding that it's about sadness, hope, triumph, disillusionment and resignation. But you need to find those things in it, not try to 'put feeling into it' in general.
Tony
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-06-19 21:16
Vials,
I've just seen the video and thought you were brilliant. This piece was used for the UK ABRSM exams a few years ago - arranged for the Bb clarinet. I think it was Grade 5. One of those typical pieces that looks quite easy at first but actually takes an awful lot from you.
Well done!
Steve
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-19 21:28
Ken Shaw and Tony Pay, I think you both make very good observations, and give interesting advice (even though you disagree with each other quite a bit). But I will have to read your posts a few more times to let all the information sink in
Steve, thanks a lot! Yeah, the fantasy pieces are certainly not as easy as I first thought they would be. But the more I listen to them and practice them, the more I like them too. They are all beautiful pieces of music.
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2009-06-19 21:37
Several very nice things going on in this recording, and I agree that there are a few adjustments to be made to really make it wonderful.
When I hear students play this piece, I usually think that it comes across a little mechanical, or too straightforward. I appreciate that you didn't rush through, but I also feel that you didn't quite take your time and let it settle, either. Romantic pieces often stretch and fall - there's a lot of curvature in the phrase, and that calls for flexibility of tempo. Now, I'm not suggesting that you drop a measure twenty ticks then resume in the next; I am suggesting that not all eighth notes will be played equally - inflection doesn't work that when all syllables are equal. You have to find how to give arrival and how to give motion to the phrase... the suggestion of listening to vocalists (and perhaps of singing this piece yourself) is sound advice.
This piece is not so much a solo piece as, say, Weber. The weight is shared between you and the piano, very much like the Brahms sonatas are. It's less a solo and more a duet. That being said, there were a few places in the recording where although you and the pianist were playing in proximity, you weren't playing together, at least, not in as intimate and conversational a way as the piece is written. This is an easy piece until you put it together with the piano, but that's what makes it so lovely! Agree on stretches of tempo, on passing the line back and forth between you, on points of tension and points of release.
Tone was nice, you seemed very comfortable and relaxed, and it's clear that you've prepared. Now, make it clear that you've enjoyed. Hope this has been helpful. Keep up the great work.
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Author: vials
Date: 2009-06-20 18:14
hinotehud, glad you liked my jazz stuff too! Unfortunately I haven't had time to practice jazz much at all since I started with classical music.. there are only so many days of the week! :P
Post Edited (2009-06-20 18:15)
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The Clarinet Pages
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