 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-20 09:04
I have played the clarinet for 23 years now, gone through college on a scholarship, picked up sax and excelled at that, picked up flute and excelled at that, pick up TROMBONE for heavens sake and excelled at that, yet when I try to play bass clarinet, I am really really bad at it.
Is there some magical ZEN principle that I am missing when trying to play the bass clarinet? I play on an old (but awesome) Bundy bass clarinet. As a matter of fact, I'm told it is the same instrument that Tommy Newsom used on the Tonight Show for several years.
Okay my clarinet friends, tell me what the heck is my problem?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-20 09:39
Well, by the subject title I'd say the air goes the wrong way - you are supposed to blow into the clarinet. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Seriously - you may want to be a bit more verbose about what makes you think you're really bad at it.
(I just suppose your setup is in fine mechanical order with no leaks and all that)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2009-05-20 09:39)
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-20 10:12
Bass clarinet is much more difficult than those instruments. If you hear good bass playing, just be appreciative.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-05-20 11:56
I can sympathize with you. I find that my bass clarinet playing is not so much bad as unreliable - inconsistent. I've sometimes really surprised myself at how well I played and on other occasions I've just wanted to crawl into the nearest trap door in the stage floor. I think there are two likely reasons.
One is that I only really practice on it when I've been hired to play it somewhere. I don't practice on it consistently the way I do on the smaller clarinets.
The other, which also explains the first reason, is that I find bass very, almost excruciatingly uncomfortable to play, especially for my right hand. This is, of course, exaggerated by the fact of reason #1, so the problem is a little bit circular - but I don't think my hands would ever do better than tolerate uncomfortably the hand position that my bass, at least, requires.
That said, I've found that a mouthpiece makes a crucial difference - maybe because I don't play bass enough to have the flexibility I have on smaller clarinets. You should, if you can, try different ones and see what the results are.
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-20 13:10
Don't feel bad. Bass clarinet, despite its apparent similarity to a soprano clarinet, feels and plays very differently -- it's probably best to consider it as an entirely different instrument than the soprano and approach it on its own terms.
I had the opposite problem -- after switching to bass clarinet in the 8th grade, I stopped playing soprano clarinets altogether for a few years. When I started trying to play the little clarinets again I had a very tough time for a couple of years. Now I try to play both "sizes" about equal amounts to make sure I don't get rusty again.
As noted above, with bass clarinet it's especially important to have a very good mouthpiece, and an instrument that's working 100% correctly.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-05-20 13:26
When I have problems on bass, it's from a too-tight embouchure and not enough wind. You have to relax and let the reed vibrate, which means a LOT more support to keep things under control. I have the same problem on tenor sax.
Strangely, I have no problems on contra clarinets or baritone sax. These you can't play at all with a tight embouchure, and they need less air pressure. The intermediate instruments play a little with a soprano clarinet embouchure, which tempts me to use that.
At least once -- but not in performance <grin> -- pick up your bass after having a couple of beers -- enough to get a slight buzz. You'll find (or at least I do) that you really honk.
Another experiment is to play double lip with the reed on top, just for a few seconds. Again, you wouldn't do this in performance, but it will open up things a lot.
I'm interested what Ed Palanker, a bass specialist, will have to say.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2009-05-20 14:05
The bass clarinet requires the air in the mouth to be focused in the middle of the mouth, with a slightly warmer air blow. The embouchure actually is not much looser than a normal clarinet embouchure. The reed must be inserted adequately past the lower lip, and the angle of entry should be arched up to assist with control and range. The bass clarinet reed is large, and must be inserted past the lower lip . I articulate below the tip, to encourage adequate reed insertion. I also often start the air flow into the mouthpiece before articulating, which helps open the back of the throat. Good luck with the bass!
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-05-20 16:30
Having recently returned to BC I can offer some observations, some of which may be useful:
1. As has been noted above 100% playing condition of the instrument is essential.
2. I practice the BC as my primary instrument, even though I spend more ensemble time playing eefer, Bb and alto. An excellent set of exercises that I use a lot is "22 Pieces for unaccompanied clarinet," by JS Bach, adapted by Reiner van der Wal. This can be downloaded free using the URL www.clariperu.org/Bach_solo.PDF . The same site also offers downloads of a Bach Prelude and Paganini's "Perpetual Motion." I tackle the same exercises on bass that I do on sopranos without regard for casualties.
3. I've had significant issues with leaking between the reed and the mouthpiece table. This is often the case when a reed seems to play well initially and then becomes unresponsive. Part of the solution for this has been to get a better mouthpiece, though the previous one wasn't cheap. As a quick fix, I have found that putting a line of cork grease on the mouthpiece table, just below the window improves the seal (at the expense of making the reed want to slide around until it's tightly clamped).
4. Finally, I have to really concentrate on not accidentally hitting keys when they're not meant to be open. The springs don't hold the pads closed with much extra margin of force, and it doesn't take much of a bump to cause a chirp.
Of my seven different clarinets, I have to say that the bass (the largest) is the most difficult. I has taken a lot of effort to finally feel comfortable with it.
Hope this helps,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-20 17:28
kdk - you hit the nail on the head. The words "inconsistent" and "unreliable" exactly describe how I feel about my playing on bass. One day, I will go into a rehearsal and totally tear it up. The next day, I sit down to play and half the notes are squeaks!
Sometimes I can isolate the problem (like 78s2CD said, making sure I'm not accidentally hitting extra keys and making sure my dang RH ring finger is holding down the key with enough force), but on other days, I am dedicated to doing everything "Right" with a capital R, and you could swear there was a swarm of ducks flying over the rehearsal.
As I suspected, the real answer to my dilemma is "To the practice pod, Batman!"
Thanks everyone for the great advise. Although my instrument is in good working order, I am a little suspicious about my mouthpiece.
One more questions: How is the fit of your reeds on the mouthpiece? My reeds seem to hang over the back end of the mouthpiece by about 1/4 inch. It doesn't quite get in the way of putting the mouthpiece all the way on the neck, but it is close. My little sister has the same issue with the fit of the reed on her bass mouthpiece too. Is this typical?
Post Edited (2009-05-20 17:30)
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-20 17:32
Also, if you haven't checked out the video clips of Laurie Bloom teaching the zen of bass clarinet on the Rico web site, you ought to take a look. It's pretty neat!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-20 18:08
Just about everyone I've come across that thinks they suck at bass clarinet actually just has a bass clarinet in poor condition. It's quite a beast, with mechanisms on it that would make Rube Goldberg cry. Get that thing overhauled asap. My bass is almost as easy to play as my sopranos.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-20 19:12
Lots of good hints already so I hesitate to suggest this... but quite a lot of possible leaking issues can come down to a few particular problem areas and a heck of a lot of them involve the crook and the register key(s). I was playing in a German ensemble next to a bass clarinet specialist and there was a piece which was supposed to end with a nice gentle duo for Bb (me) and bass (him). Instead it ended with a nice gentle clarinet solo with some unscheduled vibrato caused by laughter suppression, accompanied by a few ghastly honkings, a couple of upper-register notes that worked, then finally a few defeated breath noises.
Back in the dressing room he pushed downward (or was it upward?) on the mouthpiece end of the crook and everything was fine; then he pushed the other way and it was back to squeaksville. I've forgotten what exactly was wrong - something pushing the register key open, or just the cork being a little bit old and thus not really sealing when it wasn't lined up just so...
I'm sure you know this already but if for example _none_ of the low register works the problem is probably a fair way up the instrument and just sometimes the temporary remedy is a tiny little twist which costs nothing.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-20 19:50
> One more questions: How is the fit of your reeds on the mouthpiece? My
> reeds seem to hang over the back end of the mouthpiece by about 1/4 inch.
> It doesn't quite get in the way of putting the mouthpiece all the way on the
> neck, but it is close. My little sister has the same issue with the fit of the
> reed on her bass mouthpiece too. Is this typical?
My reeds and the mouthpiece tenon end are roughly flush, or the reed even a tad shorter. Thinking about it, how can that be? We all play at similar pitches, and we all get similar reeds, so how is it that one hangs over while the other one doesn't?
--
Ben
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-21 01:46
Nope, no tenor sax reeds for me. They stay in the tenor case. I play on Vandorens.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-05-21 02:50
Mamashep: My experience starting on bass clarinet was similar to your experience in two respects: We both have a used horn, and neither of us has had bass clarinet lessons.
The thing that helped me the most was getting the twenty year old horn overhauled by a good clarinet repair person.
A couple of tests should tell you whether it is you or the horn: One is for you to play another bass clarinet that someone else plays well. The other is for someone else to play your bass clarinet.
Karl mentioned an uncomfortable hand position on the right hand. Since the horn is supported by a floor peg, not the hand, I put my thumb on top of the thumb rest instead of underneath it. I did the same when I played a contra-alto. I find the resulting hand position much more comfortable for me.
George
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-21 07:05
I don't agree with the thesis that when a bass is mechanically right it becomes as easy to play as a soprano. It is an extra factor in the bass that it goes out of adjustment more easily, and that adds to the difficulty. But it is more difficult to start with. This does not go well with any tendency only to play it once in a while. The idea of doing lots of practcie on a bass, even if playing more on soprano seems a good idea. My guess is that it is easier to pick up a clarinet and wing it on the basis of bass practice sessions than doing the other way round.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-21 07:21
Now this is odd, I think.
How is the fit of your reeds on the mouthpiece? My reeds seem to hang over the back end of the mouthpiece by about 1/4 inch. It doesn't quite get in the way of putting the mouthpiece all the way on the neck, but it is close. My little sister has the same issue with the fit of the reed on her bass mouthpiece too. Is this typical?
They are, said mamashep, Vandoren bass clarinet reeds. But they're too long for the table. That's ringing some bells with me but I can't remember where long reeds were last mentioned here...
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-21 07:23
Well, perhaps not as easy to play the same bunch of noodly passages or hold long notes at forte, but a well-adjusted bass is in the same difficulty neighborhood as a well-adjusted soprano. I might suggest that your notion of a soprano being easier on the basis of bass practice would be tainted, to some degree, by the shortage (absence?) of people who have put in more time on bass than on soprano over the years. I have thousands of hours and give or take a hundred lessons on soprano and hundreds of hours and never a lesson on bass... to make it a fair comparison, we'd need to find someone with the inverse.
Also depends on whether your criteria involves "harder to play the same sheet of music" or "harder to play music written for that particular instrument."
The thesis, I'd say, is that a well adjusted bass clarinet is as easy to play bass clarinet music on as a soprano is to play soprano music on.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-21 09:01
Well, I am asked to do more bass playing than soprano playing. I have no doubt it is more difficult per se. Some of the parts seem superficially easier, but unless the instrument is treated with the utmost respect, many parts are actually disproportionately challenging.
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Author: Bart
Date: 2009-05-21 10:48
May I suggest, tongue in cheek, that the bass clarinet is the reason why Adolphe Sax invented the baritone sax?
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-21 12:35
Mamashep, I can only agree with you.
The BC is not that easy as you might think.
For a recent project there was a BC part.
I thought: "No problem, I can do that".
I play tenor sax as well so expected no difficulties.
Well, that changed during the first rehearsals.
First of all the instrument (I borrowed a Selmer to low C). The octave mechanisms got out of arrangement very soon resulting in all kind of squeeks.
It took some time for understanding and correcting the problem...
Unless my experience on tenor sax I still had difficulties with embouchure.
It took some time to get used to everything. Indeed, relaxing is the best way to go.
And then the score: many large intervals, altissimo notes up to b6 and very fast slurrs that are almost unplayable even on soprano.
Well, I had a hard time ;-)
So, in future I will be more reluctant in accepting a BC piece!
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-21 19:13
I had the wonderful opportunity to go to New York this past April and play with a University Wind Ensemble at Carnegie Hall. I was playing bass, and fortunately, it was a good playing day (yes, we rented the stage for a festival).
The pieces we played were taxing for the BC part (lots of repeated staccato articulations at breakneck speeds in all registers, 3 octave 16th note passages all over the place, exposed soli parts with English horn and piccolo), but do-able. I had a nice time....however, I was worried about the unpredictability of the instrument during the whole concert...and the whole thing was somehow anti-climatic.
I hope that one day I can play there again and either:
a) be more prepared and playing more comfortably on the bass clarinet, or
b) be playing soprano.
Have any of you had a similar experience where the opportunity was to great to pass up so you went for it even though you felt under-qualified? Did you ever get to go back under different circumstances?
Post Edited (2009-05-21 19:15)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-05-21 19:26
Given that we're talking standard Vandoren bass reeds - granted they may not all be created equal - they should fit the length between the tip and the top of the tenon. It sounds like this is indeed the case, but that the reed overhangs the end of the table by 1/4 inch. The mouthpiece must have a short table that doesn't extend all the way to the end. Is this possible? All of my mouthpieces have the table cut all the way to the bottom, and if the reed were longer than the table it would interfere with the neck (assuming the tenon is inserted all the way in to the neck).
Best regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-21 19:41
"Have any of you had a similar experience where the opportunity was too great to pass up so you went for it even though you felt under-qualified? Did you ever get to go back under different circumstances?"
Heck, yeah! Nearly 20 years ago, during the one year I was in the Musician's Union, I got called to sub in a Washington, DC professional orchestra on bass clarinet, to perform 7 or 8 performances of the entire Romeo & Juliet ballet music by Prokofiev, and Stravinsky's Sacre du Printemps (scored for smaller orchestra with both bass clarinet parts rolled into one).
I was working a full-time day job (non-musical) and going to graduate school three nights a week. The music was all written in the original manuscript (the Prokofiev in Russian), very hard to read. And almost all of it was in bass clef, which I could barely read at the time. Finally, both scores called for extended-range bass clarinet, which I didn't own at the time; so I had to to play the low Cs, C#s and Ds up an octave whenever they occurred.
Was I in over my head? Darned right. I went the entire week without sleep, as when I wasn't at work or in class, I was in rehearsals or performances downtown, or practicing the music at home at 3 am. My playing sucked and I wasn't called back afterwards, but still, it was the most incredible and fulfilling week of music I've ever had -- playing some of the finest music ever written, with some of the neatest parts for bass clarinet, with a top professional orchestra. I consider that week to be the peak of my musical "career", probably never to be equalled.
Sometimes ya just gotta take the plunge. On the other hand, I sure wish I had been ready for the job........ ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
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Author: mamashep
Date: 2009-05-22 14:55
I hear you. I haven't been in a concert in a long, long time where I've practiced as much as I could in the time available and still felt so unprepared to actually perform the music . That exact feeling is why I've always practiced like crazy. I hate feeling like I could have left a better performance on the stage.
As for the bass clarinet mouthpiece being of standard size....I'm not sure. I only have 3 to compare with (mine, my sister's and the spare that came in the case with my sister's horn). 2 of the mouthpieces have the shorter table, and one has a table that fits the reeds.
So, let's pretend I didn't go and replace my mouthpiece (just for arguments sake). Could I trim down the back end of the reed, perhaps on a table sander, and not suffer any adverse consequences to the tone? Could some of the instability I've had in playing be due to the fit of the reed?
Just so you know, I am going to go and try out mouthpieces this weekend.
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