 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2009-05-07 20:06
Some questions on intonation:
How much do you consciously adjust intonation to match those around you or does that adjustment mostly happen at a subconscious level? Is it hopeless if you can tell that you're out of phase, but can't tell if you're sharp or flat?
If its mostly subconscious (or maybe even if not), does the pitch of a band tend to drift toward that of the loudest instruments regardless of whether they are in tune or not? Is that okay or should I try to focus more on my section (which I usually have trouble hearing because the tenor sax is on the riser behind me and seems to be playing right into my ear).
My community band used to tune to the 1st clarinet, but now tunes to the low brass reportedly in an attempt to get the ensemble better in tune with itself. Why would this help?
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-05-07 20:21
Well it often gives the best result to tune to the lowest sounding clarinet or the Oboe if you have it because those are the two instruments which are most difficult to raise their pitch. most clarinetist in marching band just playing for fun for example have just one barrel. It has happened couple of times by accident that Buffet R-13 clarinets sold here in Iceland have been supplied with 660 mm barrel that tunes it to 440Hz.
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Author: Michael Rosen
Date: 2009-05-07 20:25
It sounds like you're playing in a clarinet section of atleast 2 on each part, probably more. As a pit musician I've had the luxury of playing my own part almost 100 % of the time and it's been a while since I was in your shoes but I'll to recall what I can.
Unless you're playing a solo, the most important way to tune is within the section. The fact that you can tell something is off is the first step to learning how to play in tune. Most people will suggest that when something sounds out of tune and you can't tell if you're sharp or flat try adjusting one way or the other and if it sounds worse you know that you've gone the wrong direction. Clarinet is a tenacious little instrument when it comes to pitch and everyone has their own alternate fingerings or methods for getting certain notes in tune. Are any specific notes sounding out of tune, if so I might be able to make some suggestions.
With regard to the tenor sax, you might try an earplug in one ear. This is helpful for me to hear my own pitch as your able to hear inside your own body, some people have trouble hearing tone when they seal one of their ears though but I say give it a shot.
Also, if you don't already have a tuner you may want pick one up.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-07 23:19
Going further along Michael's lines, knowing where to match intonation can be a very simple process, especially in an ensemble with multiple clarinetists. It works best if everyone is using the system, though.
If you're on the same part as someone else and not on "top", tune to the person next to you that is higher up in the seating arrangement (i.e. the person closer to the soloist). If you can hear yourself, a) you're too loud b) you're out of tune or c) everyone above you has botched the part. 99% of the time it's a or b. Playing and not hearing yourself can be very disorienting, especially at the start, but do resist the urge to want to hear yourself... the easiest way to get back into the hearing-yourself-comfort-zone is to play very slightly out of tune. That's what leads to that smeary zzzzhhhhheeeeyyyyaaaawwwwrrrr color that so many clarinet sections have. Bad!
If you're at the top of your part, or the only one on your part, listen for other instruments in the ensemble playing the same thing you are. The loudest person in the lowest octave is in charge. Depending on the situation, higher parts may sometimes match to more prominent people in their same or an intermediary octave who are, in turn, matching lower. If you can hear yourself distinctly, rather than as a blended color with the others, you're out of tune. Depending on the circumstances, a top-of-the-part may also match intervals with someone playing different material.
This way, everyone has someone in particular to listen to, and all the listening goes in a single direction (no circular listening), and you can quickly determine whose intonation is wonky and fix it.
If you have a solo part, or are the combination highest-chair-of-lowest-loudest, congratulations, everyone tunes to you! If you're the bottom of the chord, as far as everyone else is concerned, you are declared to be the source of intonation, no matter what the tuner might say. Keeping close to what a tuner or the harmonic context would consider in tune is much appreciated by the rest of the ensemble. If you're in charge of the part but not the bottom of the chord, you are in charge of tuning to the person who is.
This is all happening all the time. Intonation is a very involved process, but if done properly, the sound is spectacular.
If you're in the middle of the clarinet section, though, the rule is very simple. Listen one up. Always. If you can hear yourself, you're wrong. If the ensemble has excellent intonation, you may be able to play your brains out without hearing yourself. It's very disorienting, but it's right.
I've been in groups that like to be all egalitarian and declare that everyone on each part is equal, and that they should match to each other. This is, imho, a recipe for disaster, leading to multiple people chasing each other's intonation, overshooting, undershooting, and just settling for something that's "close enough" because, since they're equals, you shouldn't be able to hear one over another. If you really want to be egalitarian, just cycle who sits in the top seat.
This system works best in wind ensembles, as all individual instruments can be fairly loud and have distinctly audible pitch. Throw strings into the mix, and you tend to end up with 60 people all playing on wooden boxes within a handful of cents of each other, eventually averaging to the general vicinity of in-tune. Because of the nature of the beast, one viola playing too loud or out of tune may not be at all audible to the violist. The differences in attack and sound production and scale and timbre between strings and winds also makes something like this a lost cause. So, in an orchestra, I'll tend to split the difference... if I'm not playing principal, I listen upward in my section if they're playing something similar, or to other sections if they're not. If I'm principal, I listen in the general downward direction in the wind section (horns tend to work well), and sometimes toward the strings. It's a much more ad-hoc process, with the target of my listening jumping around constantly.
In a good ensemble, I'm constantly listening and adjusting. Unfortunately, sometimes I end up in the situation of having little to no stable pitches to hang onto (or, worse yet, one that I'm sharper than and another that I'm flatter than), and if, like most ensembles, there's no agreed tuning system in place, I just pick someone to tune to and go with it, hoping for the best.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-07 23:53
Agree 100% with Alex. Play so that you cannot be heard, or better, that you don't stand out acoustically.
It's nothing that comes to you just like that - you have to learn to listen, and to adapt. Even if your reference point is way out of tune and out of rhythm. As bad as it sounds, it is still better than an orchestra falling apart. That's what rehearsals are for - finding such rubs, and working on them. Not for drilling fingerings, spare that for the sectionals. You will notice where the various parts of the harmony blend, and where they rub against each other, and you'll adapt your pitch and timbre accordingly. Yes, it somehow is a subconscious process, if you have been made aware of the situation. (Sounds contradictory, in a way, doesn't it?)
(re falling apart - we just had a gig without our drummer (who somehow failed to show up) - surprisingly, we got out more or less unblemished, simply because we have been accustomed to listen to each other, and to go after multiple reference instruments. Music Minus One in a very impromptu fashion)
--
Ben
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-05-08 00:06
As someone with limited musical education and extensive band experience, I find the following helps me cope with the same tuning problems.
My suggestion for tuning to the low brass is to play the lowest tuning note on the clarinet. It is a lot easier for me to tune to below the staff C rather than the C above the break when the tuning note comes from a tuba. When you loosen your bite on the mouthpiece you go flatter; bite harder and you get sharper. Use that to judge which direction you need to adjust the barrel or mid-joint to get your clarinet in tune.
Also - carry and use a tuner. Most people, including me, do not have perfect pitch. Korg has a small LED model for about $20. Once your low note is in tune with the tuning note, you can use the tuner to see if your lower notes are in tune with your higher notes. And you can use the tuner to find out if your neighbors are in tune with you.
Lastly - and most important - if one ear is closest to a too-loud instrument, use an ear plug. I did not use them for the first 25 years I played in bands as an adult, and I now have hearing aids.
George L
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-08 05:00
During the tuning note, I like to tune three octaves of the tuning note. First I play the "tuning note" (i.e. middle B or C) to get my bearings, with my joints pulled out to the approximate positions I usually have them. Then I play the one above the staff and adjust the barrel, then the one below the staff and adjust the mid joint. Finally, I play the mid-staff one again and, if it's a B on my horn, I adjust the bell for any lingering discrepancies.
This isn't always practical, especially if I'm playing 4 different horns in an orchestra.
As George says, do carry a tuner. However, do not use it once the ensemble is playing, unless you are trying to figure out where a particular trouble note is, or if the ensemble is doing some sort of intonation exercise. Once the ensemble starts to play, tuner pitch is irrelevant, as everything becomes relative. You may use it to hear where you are in relation to equal temperament at A440, but sometimes 15 cents sharp to the tuner is "in tune" to the ensemble.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2009-05-08 16:14
This is all very helpful and Alex thank you for the detailed explanation of an effective approach to ensemble tuning. I've very little ensemble experience and noone had ever explained ensemble tuning to me. I use a tuner when I practice to keep an eye on things and find that other than altissimo F# which I simply can't get up to correct pitch, I have decent intonation much of the time. I can sort of feel the sweet spot when I'm in it, but I'm no good at figuring out if I'm flat or sharp.
I'm afraid my band however has no agreed upon approach other than instructions to listen to each other. We have three 3rd clarinets (three 2nds and two 1sts) and I have the good fortune of sitting second to someone who has a good ear and impeccable rhythm. I do find quite frequently now that I can't hear myself play - wasn't sure why that was happening - I actually thought my reed wasn't working the first few times it happened and stopped playing! Glad to hear that's a good thing. I guess they cover all this in elementary/middle school band so thanks for the catch-up lessons!
I'll put my new-found awareness to work tomorrow - we have an armed forces salute concert. I may give the earplug a try. I'd hate to get hearing damage and if I can't hear because of the sax anyway, then the earplug may not hinder me too much.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-08 16:45
They don't often cover this in elementary or middle school band; very few ensembles cover it at all. The first I was exposed to an effective tuning system was in the top ensemble at my university.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-05-09 16:50
Intonation issues in band are always tricky..I would clearly state any group should not only tune before rehearsal but also eveyr 1/2 hr. for amateur wind groups. Also...be sure the group tunes to the pitch once it settles at 440 after the initial attack. Alot of players just hear the note and play not realizing the pitch also must settle. As to tubas and basses they should play the upper most octave of their instruments and then adjust the octave below according to where the pitch was on the highest note of the tuba..bass etc. Most orchestral tubists do this. Also most players should be encouraged to find or buy mouthpieces that match or play on similar set-ups when possible. Really sharp flutes make in tune clarinets seem low etc. Or vice versa..low clarinets make high flutes seem sharp or out of tune. Warms ups in octaves in all sections will also alleviate the feeling of "out of tuneness" or lack of blend. Players with weak embouchures should practice more and of course work with a tuner at home.
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-05-09 16:53)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-09 19:40
As big a problem is people just not knowing how to tune. I can't say how many groups I've played in and heard where tuning is an exercise in "Let's all play something in the vicinity of A at the same time. All done!"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2009-05-09 22:03
Knowing whether you're flat or sharp does help, but it's less essential than hearing whether you're out of tune to begin with! If you determine you're out of tune, try tightening and then loosening your embouchure to see if one or the other gets you closer to the pitch. If tightening gets you closer, you're flat and need to push in. If loosening gets you closer, you're sharp and need to pull out.
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2009-05-10 19:48
Had an interesting time listening to the band as we played last night now that I have a better idea of what to listen for. It's fascinating how knowing what to listen for helps you start to "hear" better. At certain points I became acutely aware of 2 people in the clarinet section who "stood out acoustically" over the other 6 of us. I think knowing to shoot for making my playing "disappear" helped me play much better in tune with the rest of the section.
Thanks for the help!
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-05-11 18:54
I'm fortunate to be able to play with musicians who are much, much better than me (Yes, I try their patience!). With them and with my teacher, there are times when I don't have an intonation care in the world. Before I can notice that I'm out of tune, they have already adjusted to cover me.
That is not very helpful to my musical development --but it does make out-of-tune conditions rare enough to be quite noticeable.
I have almost learned the vagaries of my clarinet's scale and know which notes have to be helped along.
I should mention, too, that I'm often the only person on my part --so I don't have to worry about other clarinetists being off in lala land someplace where there is NO way I alone can fix things.
Bob Phillips
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