 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-03-26 22:32
I assume other people have received the email ad for Forestone plastic reeds, which compete with Legere, at about the same price or a little higher ($20 each as an introductory price, and then $30).
Has anyone tried them? What are the Vandoren strength equivalents?
Ken Shaw
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-03-26 23:13
Ken,
I also received this email today. I'm not sure I want to spend $120 (ca.£84) on all of the models. It does look rather interesting though.
Surely they should be offering professionals free samples? I may email hime back and see if I can some free ones. If I do i'll post a review.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-03-27 00:30
There's an interview with the head of Forestone, a Japanese company, in the lastest issue of The Clarinet. If I recall correctly, he said that in general if you normally play a reed like a traditional Vandoren 3.5 (he may have just referred to a number, not a brand) you'd want to come down a half step and try a Forestone 3. But don't hold me to that. I don't have the article handy.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-27 01:30
Paul Globus here. I wrote the article on Forestone in this month's The Clarinet. I've also tried the reeds and am playing them now. Here's what I can tell you.
There were originally only three strengths available. Apparently these were good for many Japanese players but I personally found them too hard. One could tell, however, that the basic playing qualities were something special. It probably has to do with the composite material, which includes bamboo cellulose fibre (it's not "plastic" by any stretch of the imagination). Also, these reeds are not machined. They are injection molded based on a proprietary process developed in Japan. Perhaps that contributes to the quality as well. One interesting thing is that when you hold the reed up to the light, you can see the classic "U" shape you expect to see in a cane reed. Legere reeds to do have this.
Now, the founder, Mr. Kawai, has adjusted the amount of bamboo in the material and made three "softer" strengths. I say softer but you would hardly consider them soft, as in mushy or lacking in tone or anything like that. They just play with a bit less resistance. How much? Enough so that I can play them comfortably on my medium-close mouthpiece. If it helps to know this, I am a double-lip player.
I have the greatest admiration for Guy Legere and his products but to me, Forestone is a different animal. They really play as close to a good cane reed as I can imagine. I've been playing on them now for about two weeks and a few days ago, I removed the cane reeds from my case. With Forestone, I can play the full pitch and dynamic range with no problem whatsoever. The sound is clear and robust. There are no intonation issues and articulation is a breeze.
If you're a serious clarinet player you owe it to yourself to try this product. And Mr. Kawai is still innovating in that he's thinking of introducing still more strengths.
What I cannot say is how long these reeds will last but after two weeks, I find almost no change in how the reeds feel or sound. We'll see.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-03-27 02:40)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-27 01:44
A few more points that I neglected to answer in the previous post.
To me, Forestone reeds grade harder than Vandoren. My feedback to Forestone is that they need to offer more strengths because, unlike cane, these reeds do not get softer as you play them. Also they are not meant to be adjusted in any way. So the key is to find the right strength for your setup and way of playing. I think they've gotten that message.
Free samples? This is a small company even though Mr. Kawai, who has just about dedicated his life to solving the universal "reed" problem, has been in business for 30 years. They might be offering free samples to big name players but I personally think their introductory offer is fair and we clarinetists should encouage Mr. Kawai by parting with a few bucks when we try the reeds initially.
In my view, the price of Forestone reeds seems reasonable when you consider that these reeds (from my experience so far) are incredibly consistent one reed to another and (again based only on experience so far) seem to last weeks on end with no gradual deterioration. I mean, what does a box of (bad) cane reeds cost these days? Then, of course, you need to factor in "stress-reduction" when you no longer have to do minature carpentry as a sideline.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-03-27 01:59)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-03-27 07:29
I just ordered some. I'll keep you posted on my Forestone experience...
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-27 08:30
I tried them at the Japan Clarinet Society festival last year.
They were quite good- in the same league with Legere. All the notes up to double high C came out wonderfully clear, but I had a problem playing notes above double high C.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-27 10:09
Above double high C? I wouldn't know about that as I never play above double high C. What music calls for playing in that range? Some of the Spohr concertos call for double high C and maybe a few other pieces but, let's face it, one can get along pretty darn well as a clarinetist without ever going up that high into the alt-altissimo.
So even if Forestone reeds are problematic in the stratosphere, you could probably say the same thing about most other reeds, including all but the very best cane reeeds. In other words, if all the notes up to double high C are "wonderfully clear," just what is the problem?
Take care.
Post Edited (2009-03-27 10:38)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-28 14:52
What do you mean by "double high C", the Ginastera goes to what most of us consider to be the douple high C, actually a C#, a D if transposed on the A clarinet. Are we talking about higher than that? If so, why bother? ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-28 14:57
Paul, I understand the economics of it all but if he wants a large number of players to try them he should sell them for cost at this point. If his cost is $20 each, he's not going to make a lot of money in the future. Sell them at cost or no more than $10 each being that a person needs to try at least three if not all six to determine if they like them. The other possibility is to have a one time exchange policy and take the loss for now to secure success in the future. If their as good as you say it should be worth it. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-29 00:26
Ed- I test the presentce of extra high notes (up to triple G) to tell me about the overtones. If the extra high notes don't come out then I think that the overtones in that range might also be weak.
Mind you this is not only material- I have played some cane reeds that don't go much above double C, also.
Post Edited (2009-03-29 05:35)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-29 18:12
Dear Ms. Palanker,
I suppose there are any number of ways of looking at the cost issue. I"m not a businessman but I do know something about manufacturing and proceeses such as injection molding. The upfront development costs can be substantial.
I know that Mr. Kawai has put decades of time and money into his product. It would seem to me that he's not being unreasonable in offering players the opportunity to try his reeds for a special discounted introductory price. You're suggesting he charge $10 each but how do you arrive at that figure? How can any of us know his actual costs?
My point is simple. Let's encourage the man. He's doing something of potentially great benefit to us all. Taking him up on his offer could be some of the best money any of us ever spend.
Kind regards,
Paul Globus
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-29 18:26
I was really suggesting his cost, I just choose ten dollars as an example. I know that Legere at least offers that you can send it back for exchange at least once. Or at least he did when he was trying to get people to try them, good business if you ask me.
Forestone's reeds problem as I see it is that they are too expensive for most students to try them and most professionals that can afford to probably don't want to. Clarinet players are a very conservative bunch and tend not to want to try new things until they become more popular. When Rovner first came out with his ligature many years ago I helped him try to market them to symphony and jazz players to get them on the market and the vast majority didn't want to use them because the "looked" different. Once a hand full began to use it they slowly took off, got copied and now that design is a best seller. It took many years and many "free" ligatures. We probably sent out a hundred free ligatures before they started to become popular. He too spent many years and a good deal of his money in it's development.
I'm just making a suggestion, he doesn't have to listen to me, not everyone does. ESP
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-29 18:46
I'm sure he has already given away many free samples and will continue to do so. I just think we should encourage him, as I said.
You call clarinet players a conservative bunch. I second that. But I would go further. Many (not all, certainly) are quite cheap as well. Especially when it comes to something new. They want it for free or for next to nothing.
I don't get it, actually. It would seem to me that clarinet players who spend many hundreds of dollars on reeds THAT DO NOT WORK would be eager to spend only a small fraction of that amount on a product that could, literally, change their lives for the better in nearly immeasureable ways.
Paul Globus
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-29 19:51
We North Americans are funny lot. Anything we get for nothing is worth, well, nothing. That's our mentality. And that why I think Mr. Kawai is doing a smart thing by offering players an opportunity to try Forestone reeds for a discounted introductory price. This way there's at least a chance we'll take it seriously. Good for him, I say.
Paul Globus
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-03-29 19:58
I ordered 3, we'll see. If they're as good as Legere's, it will be money well spent. If they're better than Legere's, then it's a bargain (for me). I'll report fully when I try them.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-03-29 20:27
I am hesitant to try reeds at this price level without knowiung the performance characteristics of the individual reeds. If there were some rough equivalence information available on the website, I would be more willing to give them a try. Most reed manufacturers will offer up some information on approximately where their reeds sit on the hardness scale, as compared to other established brands.
I would be willing to part with the $60 for a trial set, but I would first want to have an educated guess as to which three to order. Thewebsite doe not give very much useable information.
Jeff
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-03-29 20:43
I made this very point to Forestone and have been told that they are working on providing some sort of equivalency information that relates their reeds to Vandoren or some other well known cane brand. In the meantime, I can tell you that the original three offerings, -3, 3 and +3, were all too resistant for me. They played like robust Vandoren 4, 4.5 and 5, in my judgement. The three new "CL' offerings are lighter, more like 3, 3.5 and 4, and I find them much more comfortable.
The trick, I believe, is finding the exact strength for your mouthpiece and way of playing. What makes it a bit difficult to relate to Vandoren is the fact that the Forestone reeds do not soften with use and are not adjustable with knives, sandpaper, reed rush or files. So what you're looking for with Forestone is not the equivalent of what you purchase with cane, but equivalent to what you like to play on when your cane reed is broken in and adjusted to your way of playing.
Forestone is apparently working on extending its range, which, given the quality of this product, is good news for all.
Hope this helps.
Paul Globus
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-03-30 07:44
Since I don't know the Ginastera piece that was mentioned, I'm still unsure which notes you're talking about. Mark provides a reference point next to the header for this bulletin board for a numbering system based on the octaves of a piano keyboard (C4="middle C" on the "Great Staff"). Can you translate this discussion to those octave designations?
Thanks.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-03-30 07:48
Can someone post the web URL? I seem to be the only clarinetist who didn't get the email ad (I feel so left out). I didn't get the one about Rico Reserves, either, but Rico is easy to find. When I ask Google for Forestone, I get "Did you mean Firestone" and then a lot of references to "forest" and tire services.
Thanks.
Karl
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-30 08:41
kdk,
![[C4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c4.gif) is the logo at the top of the page. Three octaves above that is ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) which is generally considered to be the "top note" (written note, that is) of the clarinet. The Ginastera goes above this.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-03-30 10:33
So is the higher one - C7 using the reference of C4="Middle C" what you were calling "double high" C or "triple high" C?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-30 12:23
kdk- I say "high C" for ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif) . I say "double high C" for .
Post Edited (2009-03-31 02:43)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-03-30 14:20
Regarding marketing of these new reeds, Forestone and Mr. Kawai needs to adhere to the traditional 4 P's of marketing.
1) Product: He has to figure out what his costs are for producing each reed as he ramps up production. Cost should equal his time making the reed not just what the materials and machinery investment is. Remember, he could be doing something else instead and earning some amount of money (opportunity costs). As he increases volume of product sold, he may have the ability to reduce his price per reed.
2) Positioning: He has to think about what segment of the clarinet market he is trying to capture. If it is the professional who wants a great product and will pay a premium for it, he should price it relatively high, esp in lieu of what a box of reeds costs now and the amount of reeds that are professional quality in that box. For a professional, a reasonable price may range from $20 US up to $30 US and still represent a good value. If the material and methods of measuring reed strength are accurate and reliable, he may even be able to charge up to $50 US per reed and still offer good value!!!
Remember, raising price is very hard once you have discounted it and consumers have expectations on what the price "should be". Also, price conveys something to consumers in terms of brand, reliability, quality, etc. These are called intangible benefits.
Mr. Kawai could then later introduce a "student" quality reed at a lesser price without discounting his original "pro" line reed.
3)Promotion: Mr Kawai would do best by getting one or two international players to adopt the reed and play it in public (such as on an ICA recital, a YouTube posting, or orchestral tour). If he can convince a high level player that this reed is a better alternative to regular cane, the average clarinetist will follow and pay a premium price for the reed. He could also advertise in targeted trade journals such as The Clarinet, The Instrumentalist, music educator trades. Displays at TMEA or NAMM would also prove cost effective after initial investments for booth signage, etc. He also will need to use GoogleAds effectively to be one of the first prompts that show up when you search under key words such as "clarinet reeds", "synthetic reeds", "reeds", etc.
4) Distribution: This will perhaps be the biggest challenge for Mr. Kawai, aside from adoption by the clarinet community. He will have to get the reeds slotted by WWBW and by regional distributors. If he sells directly to the customer, he will have to offer more purchase options than PAYPAL (Visa, etc). Also, he may find the fulfillment aspect of sending packages quite mundane and not cost effective for his time.
I myself think that a synthetic reed that can compete with cane should be scientifically possible. It is the vibration of the reed against the mouthpiece that creates the vibration of the air column that creates the sound we hear. Hence, the material can be anything as long as it vibrates in a fashion that is comfortable to the clarinetist and produces a pleasing result.
The efforts of Legere and Kawai show that even if these reeds are not adopted by the mass market of clarinetists, we are close to having a synthetic reed that can compete with cane.
Bravo to these two inovaters!!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-30 20:04
Dileep, not to nitpick, but I think you gave us "3 Ps and a D" rather than "4 Ps". ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) Good wisdom nonetheless!
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Author: tlbail01
Date: 2009-04-08 03:52
I think Dileep is right in that it is possible to invent great synthetic reeds. Just think, today someone might say, "how could Stadler play the Mozart concerto on that primitive clarinet of his time period?" and perhaps not too far into the future, people could be saying, "How could they have played on something as primitive and inconsistent as cane?"
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-08 13:03
Some people, like the devotees of Legere, are already saying that. Cane reeds are a pain and have been for centuries. The development of a synthetic replacement is inevitable. Just don't look to the cane-reed manufacturers to be the ones filing the patents. They are the "pushers" feeding the clarinet players' "habit." It's the Guy Legeres and the Ittoku Kawais who will be the agents of change. All we clarinet players have to do is remain open-minded and to remember that those who say "it cannot be done" belong in the same category as those who have scorned every major development of the past 500 years.
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2009-04-09 00:00
I ordered 3 Forestone reeds after reading this thread. I ordered all the "softer" strength ones - CL -3, CL 3 and CL +3. I tend to prefer lower strength reeds (2.5, 2.75 or 3) so, as I expected, I found that I preferred the CL -3 and the CL 3. They responded similar to the Legere 2.5, 2.75 and 3's that I have. I felt the CL +3 was similar to the Legere 3.25 in resistance and perceived "stiffness". (I do not have a Legere 3.5 to compare.) In all the Forestone reeds I found the upper register response to be excellent.
Out of curiosity I pulled a brand-new Vandoren 2.5 out and played it straight from the box. I found it was similar to the Forestone CL -3. The CL-3 had slightly more resistance.
The one odd thing I noticed was the tip - it did appear to have been taken out of a mold. There was the slightest irregularity in the shape (as if cut with a dull Cordier) and one of them had a small flap of very thin material left on it as though it hadn't been cut cleanly. Also, the tip seems to curve slightly away from the mouthpiece, although this may be the design as all of them did it.
For what it's worth, I am an equal-opportunity reed-player. I play a variety of brands (Vandoren, Rico Royal, Glotin, Legere, etc.) and I rarely spend time "working" them.
All of these were played on my new Vytas Krass Riffault 1.05mm mouthpiece on my Buffet RC full-boehm.
All in all, I'm happy I tried them out. I'll be putting the CL -3 and the CL 3 in my reed case for testing out at the next rehearsal.
Michelle
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-04-09 00:30
Quote:
It's the Guy Legeres and the Ittoku Kawais who will be the agents of change. All we clarinet players have to do is remain open-minded and to remember that those who say "it cannot be done" belong in the same category as those who have scorned every major development of the past 500 years. lol. Do you see where things will become complicated? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) hahaha!
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-09 03:04
Concerning Michelle's comment about the tips, I have not really noticed any problems with the tips of the samples I've seen and tried. They all appeared "clean" to me. But I suppose it can happen with an injection molded reed.
I mentioned this to Forestone and they told me that in their playing tests with professional players in Japan and elsewhere, a less-than-perfectly-clean tip did not seem to affect the reed's sound and playing qualities. However, if anyone is bothered by a tip that appears less than perfectly clean to them, Forestone suggests clipping it a very tiny bit, just as you would a cane reed.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-04-09 05:52
Re-Michelle's comments,
These reeds are made with injection molding and then the tables (up to just behind the tip) is sanded flat, and the tip is cut to shape.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2009-04-09 09:14
i ordered all of them.
Still the best way to know first hand
gr
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2009-04-10 08:31
strenghts of the forestone reeds
cl+3 : for me a strong Vandooren V12 number 3 or a standard vandooren 3 ( i always had the impression that v12 number was somewhat lighter then a standard 3 )
c-3 : has to be a medium 3.5 vandooren
Playing characteristics :
CL+3 : They play like a v12 . From altissimo G on , you need probably some adaptations to your embouchure . And you have to work on the sound to avoid harshness. ( probably some small differences that you have to get used to , because of different material )
The reed responds maybe with a bit more resistance , so you have the tendency of blowing harder , while you should direct the airstream in a different way ( higher , faster ). WIth the correct habits and some experience : a very good and usable reed for a lot of situations i think .
First impressions , did only play one hour , but am certainly going to use them . No complaints about the chalumeau or clarion.
After some hours : i think that cl3 is more the v12 number3 , and cl+3 is going towards 3.5. We are so used to reeds getting a bit softer after playing them a few times in a row, that we choose them a bit hard to start with . This is not the case with forestone.
Anyway , the different strenghts are really gradual , so with cl3 , cl+3 and c-3 , you hav the spectrum from hard2.5 or soft 3 till 3.5
Post Edited (2009-04-10 09:44)
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-11 00:48
My order of three came today. I tried to get the CL3, CL+3 and C-3 - to get the "middle" strengths, but they sent CL3, CL+3 and CL-3. So the CL+3 is not resistant enough I thing so I may order the more resistant grades. I was not entirely unimpressed, though it did not seem to be easy to get as "warm" as sound as with a cane reed. Better than Legere's though.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-04-12 16:06
Whoever is filling the orders may just be working too fast. I ordered all three of the C series and received instead the three CL strengths. I emailed Lars Heuseler, and he is sending the three I ordered gratis. I am impressed with the sound and response of the CL+3 on my mouthpiece, although the tone spreads a little too easily and the pitch goes flat if I relax my embouchure at all, indicating the reed is still a little light (I normally use VD V12 #4.5 or VD Traditional #5). I am anxious to see if the C series reeds respond as well but hold the sound and pitch better on my mouthpiece.
Karl
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-12 17:22
Yes, Lars is watching the BB and is sending a replacement for me as well.  Played the CL+3 for church services this morning. Not bad. Still a bit "soft" I think. I think I need the C series, so we'll wait on those. I'm playing a pretty closed mp now though with a medium length facing. I may experiment with some of my other mp's and see if they are a better match.
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-12 23:36
Practiced for a while with the CL+3 this afternoon. Another interesting thing is that it seems "too smooth". I guess I'm accustom to a certain amount of friction on my lower lip from the reed. Now I wonder if that is a common response or whether it exposes some flaw in my own technique that I "need" the friction. Still very intrigued because they don't sound the same at Legere's, which I have not liked.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-04-13 10:05
I ordered them using the Forestone website.
Karl
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-13 12:14
kdk wrote:
> I ordered them using the Forestone website.
>
> Karl
Yes. They come from Japan but it only takes about a week to get here.
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Author: whole note
Date: 2009-04-13 18:52
As someone who embraces new technology and doesn't like to leave things to chance, I am a big fan of both Legere and Forestone reeds. After not having time for clarinet for several decades, I have been playing again for almost three years. Reeds aside, it has been an uphill battle to get back up to speed and find my sound again.
Almost a year ago, I started trying Legeres. It was a bit of an investment--I sampled regular and Quebec each in three strengths, before deciding on Quebec 3.25. Then I tried a half dozen of them over the course of a few months to see if they were all equal. I ended up with four out of six that are perfect for me and they have lasted and lasted. When I saw the post about Forestone, I ordered the three CL reeds, received them last week, and am really excited about them as well.
Last night I did a blind test with a friend who has a very good ear. I played the Quebec 3.25, the Forestone 3+, and a V12 3 that took me weeks to break in and is the best cane reed I have. The friend couldn't tell much difference between the Forestone and the V12 (even though the Forestone was so much easier for me to play--articulation, intervals, dynamics) and preferred the Legere Quebec overall saying it had a darker, richer sound. (I was playing an R13 Festival, Grabner K11* mouthpiece, with Vandoren Optimum ligature.)
However, in spite of the evidence, when using a cane reed, from where my ears are, it just seems better with more dimension and texture. I wonder if it is because of the feel of it, rather than the sound.
I've heard that the sound that cash machines make dispensing money is a fake sound effect that was added because it reassures users that their money is coming. Maybe it's the same with reeds--there is some feel when we are playing, that we associate with sound.
In any event, making the switch requires patience and commitment.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-13 19:27
You raise an interesting point about your ears and those of people listening to you. Just like your own voice, your clarinet sound is perceived differently by you than it is by others. What's more, many of the subtleties you perceive in your tone that you qualify as darker or richer or clearer or more textured are completely lost on your listeners, as they reside mostly in your own head. It's like that with all of us. That said, how something feels is a big part of the equation and will dictate your choices in terms of reeds, mouthpieces and other pieces of equipment.
You can legitimately say "I choose cane because it feels better to me even if I know it is not perceived as better than a synethic alternative by my listeners."
You can also legitimately say: "I choose Legere or Forestone because it sounds okay to me and the difference compared to cane is more in the feel than in any quality than can be easily detected by my listeners."
The real difference between cane and these high quality synthetics is the consistency, longevity and time issues. Cane can kill while Legere and Forestone can make your life much, much easier.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-04-13 19:28)
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Author: whole note
Date: 2009-04-13 21:35
You can also legitimately say: "I choose Legere or Forestone because it sounds okay to me and the difference compared to cane is more in the feel than in any quality than can be easily detected by my listeners."
I completely agree. Next time I will have my friend set up the reed options and I will blindfold myself. Seriously!
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-04-14 17:36
These new reeds are an exciting development. I tried the Legere and didn't like them. But i do find the Fibracel reeds acceptable. Even tho' they are not as good as a great cane reed, I end up using them for doubling gigs because they do not have to be wet and they are loud and clear. Luckily for me, the music store where I buy them lets me test them and pick the best ones. They can do this since the Fibracel reeds (being plastic of some sort) can be sterilized in the same way a mouthpiece can.
So you are saying to yourself, I thought plastic reeds would be more consistant than that. Well… no. At least not Fibracel. My question to you Forestone users is: how consistant are these? Can you tell the difference between two or three of the same strength reed? If they are not consistant in response, resistance, etc the Forestone company has more work to do.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-14 18:49
The answer to your question would depend on who's doing the evaluating. You're asking for an "opinion" from someone who has tried two or three Forestone reeds of the same strength. I am such a person and will gladly give you my opinion provided that you and others reading this do not confuse my opinion with a statement of fact. Regardless of how many others might agree with me, it's still only my opinion.
Forestone reeds are among the most consistent reeds I have ever tried. I have four here of the same strength. If I play each one in turn, I find the basic timbre, resistance and response to be "identical." That doesn't mean they're all exactly the same in the scientific sense. But they are pretty darn close.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-04-14 20:23)
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-04-14 23:29
Paul, that's close enough for me. When testing Fibracel, I have played as many as eight of the "same" strength sax reeds and perhaps four of the clarinet. I found them to vary quite a bit. Even so, i do enjoy the good ones. Looking forward to seeing more reviews of the Forestone reed.
quote: "…I will gladly give you my opinion provided that you and others reading this do not confuse my opinion with a statement of fact." Thanks for that. I believe we need more opinions here and more acceptance of them.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
Post Edited (2009-04-14 23:35)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-04-15 19:58
Forestone Reeds, like all plastic reeds, after purchase should be carefully examined, play tested with several different mouthpieces and then thrown away as being good for nothing!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-16 16:35
Forestone has a special going until the end of the year. Here is the website:
http://www.forestone-japan.com/eg/order.html
"write "Special offer from Lars Heuseler" in the message box"
I have recommended to Mr. Heuseler, marketing director, that Forestone adopt the same exchange policy that Legere offers, but so far, no response.
Post Edited (2009-04-16 16:38)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-16 16:45
FWIW--I have briefly tried the C- & CL+ Forestone reeds and they both are playable on my vintage Kaspar #14 mouthpiece. To my ear, they have a better overall tone quality than Legere and are quite consistant reed-to-reed. However, they do have a different "feel" to them I haven't yet had time to learn how to play them to their full potential. Promising, though...........
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-16 18:11
Funny thing...I kept thinking the name of these reeds was pronounced "fore-stone" (like "Firestone") but looking at their logo (which features a conifer tree), it seems I had it wrong. I think it's really a conglomeration of "forest" and "tone." So they're "Forest Tone" reeds, rather than "Fore-Stone."
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-16 18:22
Ok, I have placed my order with Forestone for C3 and Cl+3. I will let you guys know what I think when the mail arrives from Japan.
[ Edited - GBK ]
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-18 11:22
I receive my order of the C-3 through C+3 grades (the stiffer variety) and played them for quite a while last night.
I like them much better than the CL series. A listener across the room - back turned - could not distinguish them from cane reeds. The response was generally good and it was especially good playing consistently across dynamic levels - able to play very softly and very loudly with good control. They were not as resistant as I expected - even the C+3. I tried both the C3 and C+3 on (in order of closed to more open), Gennusa GE, Gennusa GE**, M13 Lyre and Portnoy BP1. They behaved pretty much the same on all - and I expected a noticeable difference in resistance as I moved to more open mp's. Will try with the other Portnoys and an M15 and B45 later. Also, in some cases the C3 was more resistant than the C+3. The stiffness is said in the literature to come from more material in the heart and farther down the vamp as you would expect. But on a cane reed, the material between the heart and the tip tapers more gradually with a stiffer reed (more of a "V" when you hold it up the the light). With these, they seem to taper exactly the same for all grades. The practical upshot is that making the altissimo speak at A and above required unusual embouchure adjustments. In fact I felt like I was changing my embouchure too much the play much of the range in order to force more resistance. Still need to play around with them. Promising but some issues.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2009-04-20 11:21
correct .
I also noticed that higher altissimo requires too much embouchure change to be acceptable. But everything till Altissimo G is oke for me on a vandooren B45 mouthpiece
pappy, is one of your mouthpieces comparable to b45 vandooren . I have the impression that higher altissimo works maybe better for short facing , rather closed mouthpieces.
You really have to find the correct place on the reed where you excert some extra pressure to get higher altissimo .
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-21 00:35
Yes, I have a B45 and tried it out with them today. Worked pretty well with the C-3 but not as well as other combination for me. Didn't really feel as well controlled. The best combinations for me seem the be the Gennusa GE** with the C+3 or the Portnoy BP1 or BP2 with the C3. These had the best response in all registered. Pretty good, but not great control (for me) in the upper altissimo. The reeds sounded the most "artificial" with the B45. Didn't work well at all with the M15 - a long facing.
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Author: Nasubi77
Date: 2009-04-21 15:04
Yesterday, I received the CL-3 (very fast shipping BTW!). I have been using Rico Reserve 3 on a Fobes Nova MP. I found the Forestone to be a little too stuffy in the upper register on that MP. But I also have a Giggliotti P-facing, and it was a perfect match for that reed.
I had quit using the Giggliotti because I felt it was too resistant for my out of shape chops, but with this reed, I really love it.
I just played for a 10 minute test drive, so I haven't used it long enough to figure out all the idiosyncracies. . .
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-21 16:52
You can reduce the strength of Legere reeds by about one level be dipping the vamp into boiling water for a few seconds.
Has anyone tried this with a Forestone reeds that's too hard or resistant?
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-21 21:40
But don't they return to their original brittle state & stiffness when they cool?? I can't imagine why a hot bath would result in any permanent change of strength in Legere's plastic. Even though Forestone reeds are a mixture of plastic and wood pulp (mostly bamboo), their literature recommends starting each gig with a reed that is initially a bit too hard because as it warms up, it will soften to your optimum playing need.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-22 02:53
Might I make a modest observation about judgements being rendered about Forestone reeds?
We clarinet players have been using cane since our instrument was invented centuries ago. Cane is what we live with. Cane is what we know.
Along comes Forestone. It's not cane but a new, synthetic material. According to many of the posters on this bulletin board, this reed comes pretty close in sound and feel to the "real thing." The operative words in that last sentence are pretty close. It could not sound and feel "exactly" like cane for the obvious reason that is it not cane. Only cane is cane.
What then is the validity of a statement that says that Forestone is generally good but one has to adjust this or that to play in this or that register? Isn't adjustment to be expected? No one would assume to pick up a new mouthpiece, barrel or instrument and play it perfectly without certain adjustments to one's playing techniques. Why the different standard with Forestone (or Legere for that matter)?
It seems to me that many of us are setting the bar absurdly high for those ambitious people like Ittoku Kawai who are trying to drag us into the 21st century by freeing us from the stress and hassle we live with daily in our struggles with cane reeds. I could summarize it thus:
"Make us a synthetic reed with none of the disadvantages of cane that not only plays, looks, sounds and feels as good as a good cane reed, but requires absolutely no adjustment on my part to feel comfortable. Oh, and while you're at it, make it really inexpensive too."
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-04-23 18:25)
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-04-22 16:56
Paul made some very good points. Let's judge these reeds on their own merits. If you are 100% happy with cane reeds, please continue to use them. I successfully switched over to Fibracel reeds on all my saxophones and clarinet. On the clarinet, i am playing eight shows a week. Life is so much simpler now; no preparing reeds, no wetting reeds, no sanding or trimming and the reeds last a long, long time. The only caveat is to be very protective of the tips because these babies are not cheap!
My feeling is that these synthetic reeds are not quite as good as a really fine cane reed. No way. (Have not tried Forestone yet.) However, the trade off in convenience is more than worth it. I still keep cane reeds and if I have to play a solo concert or important recording session, use the real cane. For everything else, it's synthetic for me.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
Post Edited (2009-04-22 16:59)
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2009-04-23 13:04
I was intrigued enough by the information on this thread to spend the $60. I got CL-3, CL3 and C-3. I tried them out for an afternoon, on different mouthpieces and different instruments, and will never be using them again. For those of you considering making the purchase, I'd recommend waiting until you can try them before investing.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-04-23 14:05
Paul makes some good points, worth considering. I would think that most players, although they complain about cane, know what they are dealing with and how to get them to be workable. When a new style of reed (synthetic or other) is made available, I believe that most players judge it of course, based on what they know.
I have had similar discussions with players regarding various materials for clarinets (Greenline, plastic, hard rubber, Delrin). Many players want to find something that plays exactly like Grenadilla, rather than adapt to something that may be as good, but somewhat different. In the same way many players complain about their clarinets, yet when trying something new, seem to reject it, because it doesn't play like their old one.
For myself, I generally make the evaluation depending on whether there are more (or perhaps better) pros than cons. I don't want to have to change the way I play unless it proves to have major advantages. For example, while I know that there are players who love Legeres, I have tried them a handful of times and find that I don't care for the playing or tonal qualities and cannot seem to get them working for me even as a decent practice reed.
I have played various cane reeds with the same feeling. It often has caused me to stay with what I use, for as the saying goes "Better the devil you know rather than one you don't know"
I may consider trying these reeds, as I often am curious for new options. One drawback is that they don't suggest scraping or adjusting the reeds. As mouthpiece facings, baffles, bores, etc all vary and have varied playing characteristics, it is likely necessary to tweak to reed to make it optimal for one's setup.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-23 16:56
Ed said: "it is likely necessary to tweak to reed to make it optimal for one's setup" and I completely agree. Legere has the same problem as well--you try to adjust their reeds and they tend to shread rather than shave gradually.
FYI, here is what Forestone (forest tone) reeds say on their website:
"ADJUSTMENT
Forestone reeds are not designed to be adjusted with knives, blades, sandpaper, Dutch rush or other traditional methods. One can achieve gratifying results by slightly raising or lowering the reed on the mouthpiece to improve response. Finding the right strength for your mouthpiece and way of playing is the key to success"
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-23 17:32
It's interesting, don't you think, that we have become so accustomed to this idea that reeds must be adjusted (or "tweaked," as you call it), that we cannot fathom such a thing as a synthetic reed, be it Forestone or Legere, that we simply put on the mouthpiece and play.
How can this be? No endless fiddling around with knives and blades and sandpaper and files and Dutch rush and clippers and dozens of other gizmos we carry around with us in our clarinet cases? This is not possible!
Here's something to consider. Most "tweaking" is an exercise in futility. Why? Because the problems we're having with a particular reed are "untweakable." That's right. Nothing we can do about that buzz or stuffiness or imbalance. It's inherent in the reed itself.
Yet we continue fooling ourselves that we can "fix" reeds. That's certainly a lot easier than admitting the truth, i.e. that a particular piece of wood that's giving us trouble will never respond and feel as we want it to, and that the money it cost us is money down the toilet.
Paul Globus
Post Edited (2009-04-23 18:24)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-04-23 18:26
I have to say that I disagree with the assertion that a reed cannot be fixed or altered. I successfully adjust my reeds regularly. It does require some careful work and knowing where and how to make those adjustments. Maybe all of those reed books on the market are just snake oil and maybe I am fooling myself, but at least cane reeds are relatively cheap. I can always toss the rejects in the fireplace.
![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
8-D
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-23 18:40
Dear Friends,
With great anticipation I rushed home from rehearsal this am and with great joy found in my mailbox my Forestone order waiting for me in the mailbox.
First off, the service is great. The reeds were ordered just a few days ago and sent express. But one reed (the C3) had a damaged tip from shipping. I will have to work with Lars to see if they can send me another.
By the way, it appears that the Forestone folks have changed their numbering system to correspond with the calibrations we use when comparing wood reeds. Visit their web site (www.forestone-japan.com) and they now use a system based on the norm and not unique to Forestone. Good move as I found the old system confusing.
OK, so of the two reeds have, they are both CL+3 (old system) and F3.5 (new system).
Playing on a new Vandoren M30, (and having previously played on a Hawkins), the CL+3 reed is slightly soft for how I play.
I tried to play on the C3 but the damaged tip does not do my trial justice. It felt a bit hard.
So perhaps I need something like a 3 3/4 strength (which would correspond to what I use when I play Legere's).
It appears to me, and correct me if wrong, that Forestone does not have a 3 3/4 reed at this time. They need to fill this gap ASAP as I think that that strength will be very popular in America.
As far as playing goes, the response of the reed is very good. My immediate impression is that the reed may feel a bit bright to the ear but I need to play on the reeds for a long time to make a decision.
In closing, I would like to say that I agree with Paul Globus. We as clarinetists need to come to new technology with an open mind. If we expect the same thing as cane, then go ahead and play on cane.
Rather, if you have an open mind and think that cane has many disadvantages, then you should try what innovators such as Forestone and Legere represent.
I do strongly feel that mouthpiece makers may have to fit the mpc to the reed rather than the traditional method of fitting reed to mpc.
This is not as Kooky as it sounds.....if you can be sure that the strength reed you buy is consistent, then if you buy a mpc to fit the reed, you should be able to create a good setup rather easily.
Another big plus with the Forestone reed is it has a natural cane color so you won't get weird looks from the principal bassoon player to your left or the horn section directly behind you.
Only your hairdresser will know for sure that you are playing on a composite reed. Sshh...keep the secret.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-23 18:52
Cane reeds relatively cheap? That's news to me.
My assertion is that the vast majority of "tweaking" does nothing to improve reeds. Maybe that's more a comment on my own lack of skill and patience, who knows? But the best results I've ever had with cane are with those (all too rare) reeds that required no fussing with at all. They just played. Maybe they were a bit stiff at first but after a short while, they played right in the groove and stayed that way until they died.
Post Edited (2009-04-23 20:02)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-04-23 22:15
I am finding it is possible to scrape these reeds. Fine sandpaper works (I tried it on an ATG block), although found a knife works more consistently. Rush didn't seem to remove any material at all.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-24 00:03
Karl -
This is good news. You can't scrape a Legere at all -- it pulls up the micro-threads the reed is made of, and you can't smooth that off.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-24 00:55
I have had no luck scraping, clipping, massaging, etc. Legere reeds. What you get is what you get. It either plays or doesn't.
If these Forestone reeds have some flexibility to be worked on (due perhaps to the bamboo fibers) then that is a big advantage for Forestone as you could order reeds a bit hard and then work them to a tailored strength.
Thanks for the tip. Will clip and see if that helps my CL+3.s
I do like their vibrancy but playing FF in solos such as Freichutz or Galanta Dances would not work for me on a M30/CL+3.
More as I experiment.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-04-24 01:49
I have tried clipping a very small amount off the tip (they seem to be a little too flexible). I'm also experimenting with trying to smooth the taper along the sides from the tip toward the shoulder. There seem to be rather abrupt changes in thickness (and therefore flexibility) as you progress down the sides toward the shoulders, and I think there's just too much material on the sides past the tip. Legeres have the same problem - very flexible tip and not flexible enough down the sides, but as you say, there isn't any way (as far as I know) to do any adjustment.
Karl
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-24 11:42
Haven't tried clipping yet but I think I will as the "too flexible" tip seems to be my problem with them.
Lars, if you are still around, do you have any thoughts or advice about all of this? Have the reeds been testing with numerous set ups such that you have recommended mp's etc.?
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-24 11:53
By the way, I also agree with previous posts that the tip may be too thin in relation to the mid section and vamp.
The thin tip does allow for a wider tip rail and creates excellent response.
The flip side is that it gets a bit buzzy when blowing volume.
I will try clipping the tip today and give you my notes.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-04-24 12:30
I've never done anything to these reeds except play them. But I know that Guy Chadash, who received some samples, clipped the tip in order to make it "cleaner," to use his words. So I guess clipping is possible, if you're so inclined.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-24 15:29
Friends,
The continuation of an experiment.
The CL+3's were too light for my M30 mpc. They seem to soften quite a bit after playing for a while. I am anxious to try the C 3 when it arrives.
HOWEVER,
I clipped the soft CL+3's and then put them on a Vandoren Eb mpc (2 RV) with a Robert Scott 43 mm barrel that allows for a longer heel on the reed. My Buffet barrel (41 mm) will not accomodate the longer heel.
The result was a very responsive Eb reed that can hit the high G on Till quite comfortably. I will test drive the reed tonight in a ballet performance to see if it works on command.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-04-24 20:01
My first impression based on about 3-4 days of play testing: I play a Legere 3.5, (or a Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank 4) and I ordered the Forestone CL 3 & CL+3. The CL3's are way too soft, and the CL+3 is a bit too soft. Overall the sound seems brighter than the Legere, although they may seem a bit easier blowing. For me, they seem a bit weak in the altissimo, but that may be due to the fact that I should have ordered a stronger strength reed.
Not a bad addition to the arsenal, and I'm sure some will like them better than Legeres. I don't think I'll be switching just yet, but maybe I've become so used to Legeres - (I sort of forced myself to play on them exclusively, and you do develop a feel for them after a while). I play on a Backun Symphony mouthpiece, I'm sure that makes a difference as well. I do look forward to the new Legeres coming out - not sure I'll order from Forestone again - at least for awhile. The 3-for-$60 deal seems to be off now, and they do seem to have re-numbered the reeds (at least on the order page).
Still, hats off to those who are trying to develop an alternative to devil cane! The Forestone is definitely a worthy attempt, and deserves consideration. For now, I will keep them in the rotation, and report more as my experience with them merits.
Post Edited (2009-04-24 20:02)
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-25 00:21
Today I tried clipping the C-3 to firm up the tip a bit. I have to say it made a big difference - especially in the stability of the high altissimo. I'm still pretty impressed with the tone quality - especially from "across the room" rather then "under my ear". For my set up it's not too bright at all. Though I don't play any other synthetic reeds (tried Legeres but that was a while ago). I ran through the Mozart Quintet with it and it performed pretty well - nice a warm and full on the Larghetto. Also tried it on the more acrobatic Saint-Saens Introduction and Rondo Capriciosso. Not as nimble there. Still better up high that before but harder to control with the wide leaps than a cane reed.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-05-18 18:02
Hi all,
Please allow me to share my frustrating experience in dealing with Forestone. I ordered three reeds and they sent three, but two were not the strength ordered. I e-mailed Lars Heuseler and he said that he would send the two reeds in the strength that were ordered. I have contacted Lars three times over the past 30 days telling him that I had not received them. He answered each of my queries and stated that he had sent out the replacements twice. I confirmed the mailing address with him, but I still have not received the reeds. The original order only took 7 days to reach me.
I have tried the reeds he had sent, and was not impressed. They did respond, but with more resistance and a somewhat muddy response.
I switched to the Legere about six months ago after an exhaustive trial and have been extremely happy with the results for all of my playing. (mostly small chamber and solo - b-flat / A clarinet)
I am just sorry that I did not hold out longer to hear from more of you and your stories. In my case, half of the battle was just getting the correct product in the first place. This has been no problem with Guy Legere and his product and distribution network - they are marvelous.
Gene Hall
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-05-18 20:29
Interesting. Please post again when you receive the correct order.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-05-18 22:00
Gene.
I do not think that you are being at all fair because my experience with the service from Forestone and Lars surpassed what I would have expected given fulfillment done in Japan.
He communicated with me promptly on service issues and my request for a reed to replace a reed damaged in shipping was fulfilled immediately.
I was not able to make the Forestone reeds work to my satisfaction for reasons discussed by others on this thread, so was a bit disappointed in that regard.
But my experience has been that both Legere and Forestone do their best to service the clarinet community both in timeliness and returns/exchanges.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-05-19 16:12
Dileep,
I got a chuckle from your response to my dilemma. You see, I was the one who was not able to get the reeds even through all of my efforts - I did not get the superlative service that you received. Right ?
Now, in all fairness to Lars, I shall report when I receive the reeds - and I shall report in two weeks if I have not received the reeds. And - I shall be truthful and objective in my report. I have no ax to grind.
It is through such efforts on the part of each of us that we are able to help each other.
Take care.
Gene
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-05-19 16:37
It seems curious, Mr. Hall, that you are so anxious to try Forestone reeds when you have already apparently decided that the Legere product and service are "marvelous" and therefore that Legere is your choice of synthetic reed.
Forestone is a small start-up company in Tokyo. Lars Heuseler is based in Germany. You are in America. Is it not possible that a) mistakes can be made in filling orders from that distance and b) the postal service can be delayed and it might take longer than 7 days to receive your reeds?
I think many people will tell you from experience that the Forestone people are doing their best. Maybe you should cut them some slack.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-05-19 16:59
pg@writeability.com wrote:
> I think many people will tell you from experience that the
> Forestone people are doing their best. Maybe you should cut
> them some slack.
There are a lot of people doing their best in business - sometimes things fall through the cracks. maybe the distribution system needs fine tuning. But if someone honestly is having trouble then should they refrain from sharing their experiences? I don't see anyone complaining that too many good reviews are being posted ...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-19 18:31
The search for THE ONE REED continues;
the one that will make cane passé.
Will newcomer Forestone be it?
or good ole Légère rule the day?
For sure it's not obsolete Fibercane;
nor Bari nor Fibracell win
and Fiberreeds just don't accomplish
the task, as they sound much too thin.
I'm waiting for someone who's skillful
to once and for all win the fight
to bring us a reed that's delicious
and makes us sound like Harold Wright!
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-05-19 19:11
Synthetic reeds all try to sell us:
"A great sound" - if not please just tell us.
But in the long haul,
Your sound is not all
That will get you to play like Marcellus.
...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-19 20:24
There once was a reed from Nantucket,
which was too hard to blow, so you'd suck it.
You'd pull the wind through
'till your face would turn blue
and that flying tomato? You'd duck it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-05-19 21:05
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> There once was a reed from Nantucket,
> which was too hard to blow, so you'd suck it.
> You'd pull the wind through
> 'till your face would turn blue
> and that flying tomato? You'd duck it.
>
>
>
Nantucket???
Since you're bringing out the "classics"
A clarinetist who lived in Canizes.
Tried Legere in all different sizes.
He used their guarantee,
To try each strength and degree
Although, cane is what made him win prizes.
...GBK
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-05-19 22:25
With cane I sounded like Leister
My fans claimed I was a meister
But synthetic was appealing
It gave me good feeling
But others now think me a heister
From:
Wm. Shakespeare
The Folly of the Clarinetist
1571
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-05-19 22:28
By the way David,
Do not lead us down the path of temptation with "Nantucket" laden text.
This is a family channel and Nantucket, besides being known as a popular US vacation resort, has other implications that could bring in the censors....
Or worse yet....the Buffet Mafia.
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Author: Clari
Date: 2009-05-19 22:39
It just appear to me that Paul is very defensive of all the concerns from the user.
I love to read honest feedbacks and that is why I read this bulletin board. I don't think there is any "perfect" product out there and what is the problem of sharing the "negative" experience?
I wonder if Paul has any conflict of interest here.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-20 10:41
There are good stones and bad stones
and curbstones and Forestones...
![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Oh, wait... that's from "Gypsy" ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-05-21 14:51
Dileep's comment about matching mouthpieces to reeds caught my eye.
That's exactly what I did several years ago in seeing how I could get the best possible results with Legere Quebec reeds. After quite a bit of experimentation and trial & error I settled on a #3 Quebec and a Walter Grabner K14. For whatever reason, I prefer this set up to using stiffer Quebec reeds on a K13 or K11.
This set up is so well matched to my tonal conception of the clarinet that whenever I try a different mouthpiece or a different reed (even the new Legere Signature reeds) there is something about my sound that bothers me. Usually, it's a matter of the sound being brighter or my tonal core not being as "thick" as with a Quebec.
Roger
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-21 18:59
I have nothing to add to this discussion, I just wanted to be the one to write the 100th post.
Awaiting my prize............
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Author: Clarinetcola
Date: 2009-05-22 00:38
Hi I'm studying music in college and I've received my forestone reeds this morning. IMO those who play legeres already out there should really give these a shot. I ordered a strength too soft, but based on what I could get out of these reeds they have a fuller and more focused sound(in comparison to the legeres of the same strength)- and they feel and play like a good vandoren.
Remember how the legeres performed badly in the altissimo range? I think the forestone reeds are just one grade below that - high A upwards sounded thin and awkward - but I must get the right strength before I comment any further!
As pointed out by Michelle way up there the 3+ are similar in strength to the 3.25 legere and the dark brown ones would suit most of our tastes. Hope the info would help some of you choose the right strength.
Nathan
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-05-23 01:10
Hi All,
As promised, I am back with the conclusion of my experience with Forestone. I just received the corrected reed order and have had a chance to try them.
But first, my setup - Selmer Mazzeo Series 10 A & B-flat clarinets; Pyne Bel-Canto Medium mouthpiece - classical - solo - small ensemble.
I must tell you that I was blown away by the F3 1/4 Forestone reed. It was very smooth and even in all registers. The tone quality was warm. The articulation was clean. The reed allowed me to provide delicate nuances without resistance. In other words I was playing the reed rather than the reverse.
I switched to Legere about four months ago because I had found the same qualities described above that allowed me to be free of the cane frustration. But now I find that I have a new dilemma. Now I must choose between the two. But I am thankful to have been placed in this pleasant situation.
Gene Hall
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-23 16:24
FWIW--I just received another unsolicited compliment on how "great" I sounded playing the clarinet part in "Peter & the Wolf" two weeks ago with our BJSO. But what's important for this discussion is that I played the rehearsal and two performances using the same Forestone reed--a "C-" on my Chicago Kaspar #14 mouthpiece. My clarinet--vintage R13 (96XXX). It's not about me, but rather another vote for the new Forestone reed from Japan.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2009-05-23 20:20
It's somewhat addressed in posts above but more directly, for those of you with positive experiences, how much have you had to adjust your setup and playing style to make these reeds work? What have you had to do? Or do these strap on and play with no adjustments? I went ahead and got a couple and want to gauge potential adjustments.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-05-23 22:15
In answer to the above question - I have not altered anything in my setup or playing habits when trying out the new reeds. I want a reed that performs as well as the best reed "I have ever played" that allows me to make beautiful music without worries - did I explain that very well ? In other words, I want to play the reed and I don't want to have to be limited by the reed's limitations - I have enough limitations in myself to worry about. In short, the reed must adapt to me and my instruments.
The same goes for my instruments. I take care of them to make sure they are good shape. Keep in mind that I have already decided upon the mouthpiece, etc. in advance. So in my case no equipment changes is an option.
It just feels so wonderful when you have fewer and fewer things fighting against you when you play.
Take care,
Gene Hall
Post Edited (2009-05-23 22:42)
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-05-24 00:02
I`ve tried to read thru` all the info posted and apologise if I`ve missed something but I have two queries:
1) The Forestone web sites that I have found and this includes the /order one refer only to the F series for more closed MPCs. Where is the info on the C series and is this series for more open MPCs?
2) US $30 for one reed? That is Aus$39. I can buy Legere for Aus $29.
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Author: Don Gross
Date: 2009-05-24 21:58
After years of frustration with contrabass and contra alto cane reeds partially drying out -- and looking like a washboard road -- during a concert (Los Angeles Clarinet Choir) after being on their stand with mpc caps for even a half-hour or so, I bought a Legere contrabass reed from Guy Legere at ClarinetFest 2007 in Vancouver. It wasn't all I hoped for on my low C paperclip and so I put it back in the case. However, this year we had an original work composed for us that required the contra alto to enter on a quadruple piano (that's what the composer wanted, not what was written on the printed music) low A. Because there's an air flow threshold level below which cane won't vibrate, I could never achieve what the composer wanted. But then I pulled my 2-1/2 Legere contrabass reed back out of my case and used it on my vintage Bundy contralto with a stock Selmer C* mpc and could start the note as the composer wanted. I never looked back and have not used a cane reed since on my bottom feeders (I subsequently bought a strength 2 Legere for my paperclip with a Woodwind mpc refaced by Tom Ridenour). I've also now switched over to Legere reeds on my bass (vintage low C Buffet) and I've heard no one mention any degradation in tone quality. In fact, many have asked if I changed something in my set-up because my sound projection was very much improved (in an orchestral setting). Bottom line: I can hardly wait until Forestone ventures into bottom feeder territory where many of us lie in wait...
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2009-05-25 11:42
prizes only starting from message 200 , there is a financial crisis in case you didn't notice :-)
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-25 18:58
Don: I too changed to Légères for the contra and yes, some of those low notes (especially bottom D on the Leblanc paperclip) can be played so quietly that although you know you're playing, even someone with their head in the bell can barely hear them.
Haven't gone to plastic for the bass yet though.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-05-25 22:28
Hi all,
To update my previous comments on this subject I am pleased to report that I have recorded with both the Legere and the Forestore reeds. The winner is the Forestone by a slight edge but significant enough to warrant a change.
I have just ordered three more of the F3 1/4 Forestones.
Is this the "cane mutiny" or what ?
Gene Hall
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-05-25 23:20
ariel3 said: " Is this the "cane mutiny" or what ?"
I hope so, I don't want to be a carpenter! ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif)
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Author: Clarinetcola
Date: 2009-05-26 11:55
I am still waiting for my correct strength, but I took my forestone 3.5 to orchestra rehearsal today and I was delighted how forestone delivered my sound out. However after about an hour into rehearsal they softened a lot(way more than legeres) and I had to swap to a fresh reed. I wonder how long do these service until they wear out. As I said in my last post, these reeds blew me away and totally defeated Legere IMO. But!--- what a nice time for the new Legeres to come into the market. I am waiting for them to enter Australia, but from what I've heard so far its gonna be a big battle!
Nathan
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Author: William
Date: 2009-06-03 20:07
DB--fwiw, I've been playing on two Forestone -3 reeds for about two months and they show no signs of deterioration. Each one does soften a bit as it warms up, but with some embouchure help, you can still maintain their great sound and response. Can't wait for the bass clarinet version to hit the market.
Also, fwiw, I am playing these new Forestones on my vintage Chicago Kaspar #14 mouthpiece. However, they also play quite well on my Gregory Smith "Cicero Kaspar" and "Chedeville 1*" model mouthpieces. For me, they seem to be much more "mouthpiece friendly" than the Legere reeds, which require exact, careful positioning and even then, do not produce a reasonably consistant depth and range of sound from mpc to mpc. I also prefer the Vandy Optimum lig (PR insert) over my Bay for the Forestones.
Post Edited (2009-06-04 15:10)
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-06-08 01:46
Hi All,
This is a further update on my experience with the Forestone reed. I received the order for the three F 3 1/4 Forestone reeds and have had a chance to compare them to the two that I had on hand. I have play-tested all of them and have recorded them on my Zoom H2. I am very pleased to report that they are very consistent in playing characteristics and sound. I am thrilled with the ease of sound execution in all registers and articulation.
In conclusion - I have made this reed my reed of choice.
Hope this helps.
Gene Hall
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-06-08 02:10
I just placed an order for #3. How do you find the 3 1/4 strength compared to other reeds?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2009-06-08 04:07
In answer to your question about strength comparison. I found that the
F 3 1/4 Forestone was the equivalent to the Legere (regular) 3 1/4.
Previously, I played on Zonda 3 1/2.
Gene Hall
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Author: Brendan Martin
Date: 2009-10-03 16:44
Not sure if anyone else has experienced this but i bought 2x 3 1/2 Forestone reeds last week and after just a few days alternating between the 2 reeds they seem very soft, even after I leave them for a day. Much softer than when I purchased them.
I find i am closing off the reed on my 5RV Vandoren mouthpeice now (they never did when i purchased them), its very annoying since they arent exactly cheap.
Has anyone else found this or is it just me?
Ive only been playing a couple of years so im no professional but...
I really wanted to make the switch from cane and was hoping that forestone would be the answer..
Brendan
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2010-07-11 14:26
I received a sample the other day and gave them a go right away. I'm still not sure what to think of them, I feel maybe I need more time with them.
Strength-wise, even 4 1/2 was soft, and I think the tips are too thin. Perhaps a reed trimmer would do the trick, anyone tried altering these?
Sound-wise, I found them slightly hollow-sounding, and the tone produced was 'common', as in, I just sounded like a plain old clarinet as opposed to possessing my individual qualities.
If they continue to play like they did when I first got them, I wouldn't continue with them but if you get used to them and they play better with time, I would switch. The consistency and convenience of a synthetic reed is too good to be true!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-07-11 17:36
Ken Shaw wrote
This is good news. You can't scrape a Legere at all -- it pulls up the micro-threads the reed is made of, and you can't smooth that off.
Ken Shaw
A bit off-subject, but I've had no trouble clipping, sanding or scraping Legere reeds. No fibres pull up and they work just fine. I had a couple that were a little soft, and after careful clipping and scaping they are now about a half point harder and play perfectly.
Tony F.
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-08-20 23:48
I just received and tried out the latest version of Forestones : a 3.5 and a 4.0 as they corresponded I was told with the similar strength VanDoren V12's.. I am pleased that both worked for me in altissimo with no problem. At first blush they feel a tad softer than an out-of-the-box V-12, but then, I usually shave down the VD 4's to a slightly more playable strength: maybe 3 3/4 area. But I think the Forestones will be a very acceptable addon/ backup reed ; maybe even better!
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Author: William
Date: 2010-08-21 15:24
"But I think the Forestones will be a very acceptable addon/ backup reed ; maybe even better!"
For me, after a year of exclusive use, the Forestone clarinet reed IS better in terms of both sound and response throughout the entire clarinet range. I can easily play the music without first having to worry about playing the reed.
And to the saxophone doublers reading this, you have got to try the new Forestone saxophone reeds. New models have just become available and they are absolutely amazing.
Post Edited (2010-08-21 20:45)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2010-08-22 01:54
Those of you on FB can hear my performance in Austin on the Forestone page.
The recording was done by my dad with a Zoom and unedited.
I think the results speak for themselves.
The Forestones are competitive to any cane reed out there.
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2010-09-09 15:09
I've been using Bass Clarinet Legere reeds for about 6 months, and am very interested in trying the Forestone Reeds. Having perused this web site and the Forestone web site, I realize that at this time Forestone does not produce bass clarinet reeds.
Has anyone tried and had success with the Forestone Tenor Sax Reed on a bass clarinet?
I know that many have posted on Clarinet Pages that they have used cane tenor sax reeds on their bass clarinets with success.
Thanks for your help!
Scott
Post Edited (2010-09-09 15:10)
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Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2010-09-09 15:37
I purchased the sample set of 7 reeds, selecting 2-4's, 3-4.5's, and 2-5's.
I found the 4's and 4.5's to be way too soft and gave them to students and colleagues. I liked the 5's however, and they are getting better over time. (I use Vandoren 4's).
Early on I struggled with the tip's flexibility which I felt made my higher range sound a bit thin and shrill. Moving the reed up and using more air support with a relaxed embourchure (as opposed to "pinching") has helped.
I like the sound better than Legere and its consistency in any environment . Because of that I used them exclusively all summer during outdoor concert season. I still feel a GOOD cane reed beats it out tone quality wise and I'll probably continue to use both during practice and indoor situations, but for outdoors or pit orchestra settings I think it's great.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-09 21:59
Regarding the use of Forestone tenor sax reeds on the bass clarinet, I have not had any success with my bass clarinet. However, I am currently trying some prototype Forestone bass clarinet reeds that are simple amazing in every way and have played well in all 18 of my summer Capitol City Band concerts. Two reeds, 18 concerts. My mouthpiece is a Grabner CX_BS and my bass a Buffet Prestige low C. Now that Forestone has finished it's development of their saxophone line--which I am also using full-time--perhaps more emphasis will be made in bringing these new bass clarinet reeds to market. Hang in there--the Forestone bass clarinet reed future is looking very good.
Butterfly: FWIW, I used to play V12, 3.5 on my Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc and find the F5 reeds to be the equivilent. I am using them for all of my playing venues, orchestra and band. You mentioned the quality of sound being superior with the cane reed and I would rather suggest different, but equal. No one knew exactly *when* I made the switch to Forestone, but it was just prior to a performance of Peter & the Wolf in May, 2009. I played all the rehearsals on V12's and made the switch during the warm-up for the first performance. In fact, after that concert, the concertmaster, conductor and a clarinetist friend in the audience commented on how "great" my "cat" sounded. The reed was an original F3+, my clarinet a vintage Buffet R13 with a Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc. No one noticed that the reed was not cane. I could hear a slight difference in the sound, but what sold me was the secure articulation and the pp responce of the high notes as the cat curls up in the tree :>) Last year, in a bassoon, clarinet and piano recital piece, my Forestone sound was described as "warm". I see no need to switch back and forth from cane when the Forestone plays and sounds so good.
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2010-09-09 22:37
William:
Thank you for sharing! This gets me excited to try the Forestone reeds on my bass clarinet when they come to market. BTW, you mention using the Grabner CX_BS mouthpiece. Is that the Lawrie Bloom model?
I recently purchased the Clark Fobes RR mouthpiece for my bass clarinet and love it. I have also heard great things about Walt and his mouthpieces.
All my best,
Scott S
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-10 14:52
Scott S--regarding my Grabner CX_BS, it was one of his first commercial offerings and is a customized vintage Selmer C* hard rubber mouthpiece. Walter has since discontinued this model (due to a decline in quality control with the Selmers) and developed the new Lawrie Bloom model mouthpiece using a Zinner bass clarinet mouthpiece blank. Lawrie, bass clarinetist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra extrodinaire, was the consultant and "test pilot" for this mouthpiece--that's why it is named after him.
Likewise, I have not tried Clark's mouthpieces, but have heard others rave about them. All I can say is from personal experiance--Walter Grabner makes great mouthpieces and is one of the "good guys" in the business. He also is a master restoration and repair technician and plays bass pretty good.
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2010-09-10 16:04
Thanks for the post, William. I have heard really great things about Walt from other posters as well. Glad you have had good experience with him. I recall e-mailing him last year and he was generous with his feedback and response. Seems like a first class act, as is Clark.
When you received your prototype bass clarinet reed, was it limited to players of your caliber, or can any of us receive one to try?
I'm OK sitting tight on the Forestone Reeds until they are marketed. But I just wondered if it was "easy" to receive one or if they have a limited "test" group to play these first.
Thanks for your help, William.
My Best,
Scott S
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Author: William
Date: 2010-11-04 22:05
11-04-10 and waiting. I'm posting a link to the Forestone site that explains the status of bass clarinet reeds. The protos which I received were excellant--but this was way last summer. I don't know what the big delay is other than I'm told by their rep that they are only a "small company". So, FWIW: http://www.forestone-japan.com/eg/coming_soon.html
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Author: Maestro_6
Date: 2010-11-05 02:51
Perhaps the new Forestone sizing could be revised a bit. From my Hite mouthpieces to Vandoren mouthpieces, I still find the F5 reeds to be soft.
The consistency and mouthpiece-friendliness is outstanding, though.
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2010-11-08 07:02
Yes, I find the F5 to be a little on the soft side. An F5.25 or an F5.5 should be almost perfect. I play a V. Krass .02 facing.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-03-16 00:39
I recently ordered an F5; I also find it to be a touch too soft on my Fobes CWF piece. I don't supposed there's a way to harden them up at all?
I'm still undecided about whether I'll use it in orchestra, but it'll definitely be good in the pit. I'm playing a show next month that's set during the Prohibition Era, so a slightly soft reed may be helpful for pitch-bending and lip slurring (as much of it as I can do anyway).
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-03-16 00:49
After searching through some more articles on the subject, I had to wonder why clipping the tip didn't occur to me. Duh! Guess I need to acquire a reed trimmer now.
Since I've never owned one, what do you guys recommend for reed trimmers (from both an economic and efficiency standpoint)?
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: William
Date: 2013-03-16 15:01
I have a Cordier (spl ??) that works well in clipping the Forestones. But as you may already know, clip only a smallest amount at any one time--once it is gone, you can't put it back. This is even more critical with the synthetics as cane is a bit more forgiving if you take off too much. If your clipping results in too stiff a result, you can make some adjustments with your reed knife. For me, I just shave a tiny amount about 1/4 in back from the tip right in the middle. But the bottom line wheither clipping or shaving, do only the smallest amount at any one time. You can always take off more, but you can't put it back.
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