 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-03-29 16:56
This ad is on a local classifieds site:
A pair (B-flat & A) of Boosey & Hawkes Imperial 926 clarinets. Fine professional quality instruments, in double case with 4 barrels & two mouthpieces, date from 1960. Owned by the Tupper [Dal Medical School] Concert Band. The B-flat was reconditioned two years ago; the A has been little used.
$1200
There's no pictures.
Right now I have a clarinet that I'm happy with for now, but I'm planning on buying a professional quality one in a few years to hopefully last me through a music career (fingers crossed). Should I check these out now? Would they be professional quality instruments? I don't know anything about Boosey and Hawkes.
Thanks!
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Author: jsc
Date: 2009-03-29 17:08
Sounds like a good deal. Check with several retailers and/or repair folk and see what they say. Is that $$ Canadian or American? I forget what the exchange is.
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-03-29 17:14
Canadian. The exchange is about .8, so just guessing, I think that's about US$900-1000.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-29 17:39
The Imperial 926 were B&H's equivalent of the Buffet R13/RC and Selmer Series 9/10/10S, so for $1200 I reckon that's a good price.
They're pro level clarinets and were standard issue among UK military bands from Eb through to bass. The Symphony 1010 with its larger bore was fairly standard among British orchestral players (the Peter Eaton Elite being the modern equivalent in more ways than one).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-03-29 20:12
this is a good price for these horns if they are in good or better than good playing condition. I've seen a 926 recently for sale in the UK for GBP600 and that's not unusual. Chris P has correctly noted where in the scale they fall. I play a 926 and for me it is great. It was recently overhauled and is a very nice instrument. (should you be interested at some time in the future I can give you the name of the overhauler....he does a great job). The A is quite rare this side of the atlantic btw. one issue some folks have is that the keywork tends to be "clunky", a little too thick and solid, but that's a matter of taste and can be compensated for. Another issue sometimes is with intonation - can also be corrected by a repairer who knows these horns. Try them out (take your tuner with you) and see what you think, for a pair of 926s you can't beat the price.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-03-30 11:49
Chris amd Chris
Would they benefit from having a 926 mouthpiece (I am specifically thinking of tuning here, and particualrly in the throat)?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-30 12:02
If it's an ebonite 926 mouthpiece then that should be ideal provided the rails and table are fine.
But as the 926 has the narrower bore, any mouthpiece currently on the market should work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-04-02 00:17
Alrighty, so the person has lowered the price to Can. $900 for the pair. I've talked to a repair person and he says that they are quite good clarinets, but would need to be set up and have some minor adjustments. And here's where it gets complicated. When my Conn clarinet cracked a few months ago, my parents paid for the repair on the condition that the money come out of the $1000 they were planning on paying for a Buffet about a year from now. They don't want me to buy these clarinets (I haven't tested them yet) because they don't want me to waste my money and not be able to buy a Buffet if I need one. The plan after my Conn got fixed was for me to play it into the first year or two of university, then buy an R13 if it looked like I could actually get somewhere in music. I think my Conn's dying. It's cracked a few times, and won't hold a repair. It's also becoming a bit uneven resistance-wise. It's given me a great year of oh-so-much better than plastic, but I honestly don't think it'll last much longer, and it feels like I'm fighting it to sound good sometimes. The thing is, my unmusical parents wouldn't understand any of this. So, would these 926s be good for me playing into university? I know it's complicated, but my parents don't understand anything about clarinets. In their minds, these would be taking the place of an R13, but I know they won't. I just need to know if I can play them in university. Sorry if I'm rambly and random, but I have the flu right now and my presence of mind isn't great.
Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-02 03:13
Let's put it this way - when B&H stopped production of the Imperial 926 in the mid '80s, the only clarinets they could supply the UK military bands with at that time were R13s.
Most Imperial 926s were either bought by the bandsmen when they left or retired from service (though they can't do that anymore) or they were assigned to new recruits if still serviceable, or downgraded to volunteer band use if still hanging on in there, or scrapped if they were unsalvageable and auctioned off.
But B&H also did what some car companies like Renault and Ford did - to keep up the supply of new instruments, they'd take back older instruments and scrap them (they'd be crushed) and supply brand new ones.
If you can get this pair for $900 then that's a steal, and worth spending money on having serviced to bring them up to a good playable standard or fully overhauled to be like new.
I've just had a look at Howarth's second-hand list and there's a pair of Emperors there for £800 (the Emperor is the model below the 926) and some pairs of 1010s (the model above the 926) from between £1250 and £1500 but no 926s listed - though they'd probably be somewhere between £900 and £1200.
Do you know the serial numbers on these Imperials? If you do, check it on the following list to get an idea of their age. The A may have an A stamped along with the serial number, though it's only the number that counts and not the A when it comes to looking them up.
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBH.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-04-02 11:59
Objectively, a good 926 will take you through university without a problem. Subjectively, the position is a little different. No-one ever got the sack for buying IBM. If you experienced any problems (blending, tuning, whatever) everyone, including mother, would blame you for buying these weird clarinets from a by gone age. And, 926s can sometimes present tuning issues around the throat. We always thought, in UK in the 1970s, that Buffets played in tune automatically (bar the altissimo where they are flat), whereas B&H clarinets needed more effort.
Let someone who has no doubt of the fact that $900 is a bite-your-hand-off price buy them, and save yourself the worry.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-02 12:31
With 926s, they're best played with the longest barrel and with it pulled out between 1-2mm to put them in tune with themselves as the throat notes can be on the sharp side, or you could have tuning work done on them to lower the pitch of the throat notes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-04-02 12:33)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-04-02 13:51
To add to Chris P's barrel recommendation: If pulling out the (long) barrel to correct the throat tones makes the low chalumeau E/F and 'long' clarion B/C flat (as they often are on Booseys), the latter problem can be corrected by adding a vent hole to the bell. I've had to do this to probably more than half of the Boosey & Hawkes clarinets I've worked on and the fix works very well. I first saw the modification on a 1930-ish B&H clarinet that had been sent to me for an overhaul. If I understand correctly a hole in the bell (sometimes keyed, sometimes not) is pretty much standard on oboes and (I believe) Reform-Boehm clarinets.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-02 14:32
Oboes generally have a vent key covering the low Bb vent which only opens for the low Bb (usually connected directly to the bell key barrel) as shortening the bell to bring the low Bb up to pitch or having an open bell vent caused havoc with the Es.
Perhaps this is why full Oehlers have the closed low E and F mechanism that the player has to open with the RH thumb key as maybe the open standing bell vent caused grief further up the instrument (and probably made the upper register B sharp).
But oboes built to low B (US spec Yamaha 211 and Bundys) and Reform Boehms have an open vent hole (or holes) in the bell.
BTW David, I've never got round to trying the bell you sent me on my Selmers as I've been trying to open up/reshape the bell flare, and that's not an easy task on ebonite.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-04-02 16:11
Graham: re 926 mouthpiece.....I have one and it does work fine with the 926 horn with 3.5 (rico or mitchell-lurie, don't know about vandorens) but, curiously enough works better with my old besson which has the same bore as the 926. totally subjective and bogus i'm sure.....i've also used a buffet C Crown with both clarinets and it seems to work a little better for me. The 926 mouthpieces are getting pretty aged by now so if you found one or have one it probably needs refacing. If you have a mouthpiece that works really well for you it would probably work well on an imperial.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-04-02 16:19
I can vouch for the difference a vent hole in the bell makes to 926 low note tuning.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-02 23:20
Quick question to you players across the Pond,
Are there any players of recent generations playing on the B&H 1010 or these considered antiquated instruments?
I still prefer my Delius, Vaughn Williams, Holst served on a 1010 but I may be old fashioned.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-03 12:18
There are still plenty of 1010 devotees and Peter Eaton Elite players - though not all players of these large bore clarinets go for the old fashioned British sound.
It's not the clarinet that makes the sound - it's the player.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-03 12:25
No, I am aware that what think of as the English "sound" here in the USA is not really accurate but I do enjoy the sound of the 1010 in the context of the English orchestra sound of old. Nice to know that this line of clarinet is not becoming extinct.
What is the measurement in terms of bore size of the 1010? Also is it just cylindrical or is it a polycylindrical bore?
How does the Eaton Elite differ in terms of specs from the 1010?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-03 14:20
1010 bore size is 0.600 or 15.2mm and is completely cylindrical through top joint and barrel AND should be through the special bore mouthpiece.
The Elite has similar bore design and size but has modified and undercut toneholes amongst other things.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-03 14:28
Luis Rossi also makes 1010 bore clarinets, so this type isn't only confined to makers on these shores.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-03 14:38
I know that Rossi was a student of Jack McCaw so that makes sense regarding his clarinet design.
Thanks for the info!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-03 14:49
The B&H 926 and 1010 also has several devotees in the US judging by some contributors on here, but they're few and far between.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-03 15:10
In my 30 years of playing professionally, I have never met anyone here Stateside that played on a B&H 926 or 1010 but perhaps there are some older players that may have studied with Kell when he lived in the US and taught at the Aspen Festival in Colorado.
Would be interesting to know if that is the case.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-04-03 16:05
Anyone in the US who tried to play a Boosey & Hawkes clarinet professionally would be brutally murdered in his sleep by the reed-chewing thugs of the Buffet Mafia.
They are scary people, the Buffet Mafioso. They control auditions, they bribe performers, they frighten the general population away from trying other brands of clarinets. I've heard they even fix retail prices! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-03 16:15
Careful now David - you could find yourself being fitted with grenadilla boots!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-03 16:16
Also to ponder:
How did the A and Bb clarinets come to be called the Soprano's of the clarinet family????
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-04-03 17:22
I must bid a fond farewell to my friends here on the BB --- as the result of my rash posting above regarding the Buffet Mafia, I've decided (for the safety of myself and my family) to enter the Clarinet Witness Protection Program (CWiPP) and go 'underground'. I will be living under an assumed name (probably just an abbreviation, hey, what do you guys think of, say, "GBK" as an alias?), and carrying a bassoon (Buffet-Crampon model, of course) whenever I venture out into the public.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2009-04-03 19:19
Norman Smale wrote:
> 1010 bore size is 0.600 or 15.2mm and is completely
> cylindrical through top joint and barrel AND should be through
> the special bore mouthpiece.
> The Elite has similar bore design and size but has modified and
> undercut toneholes amongst other things.
>
The Elite probably has some variant of a reverse cone in the top joint, assuming it uses the design in this patent:
http://www.wikipatents.com/gb/2129597.html
Patrick
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-03 20:51
I have not seen any cone on the Elite although there is some small cone on the International. I'll look even more closely at the next one I get in.
This patent, published in 1984, expired in 1990 and was not renewed for whatever reason.
Its quite interesting to see that such a patent was initially granted as various forms on cone, both continuos and discontinuos, on both upper and lower joints on the clarinet have been in existance for best part of 100 years if not longer.
Did Buffet (or Selmer) ever patent the bore of the R13 or any other model ?
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-04-04 16:28
Dave: once you have gone underground will the FBI forward clarinets for rebuilding or should we send them to GBK?
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-04 22:58
Chris,
Dave's gone.
Pierre' and Augustus (the official Buffet hit men) took him out yesterday.
Similar to Hoffa, they may have buried his remnants in the redo of Avery Fischer Hall.
RIP Dave....and let that be a lesson to others who dare play another brand....
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-04-04 23:13
> and let that be a lesson to others who dare play another brand....
I live in a Buffet-free zone (if you don't count the furniture in the living room). So I am pretty sure they don't have my addre
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-04 23:16
Notice how my ISP keeps changing on here - most of the time it says 'ISP in United States' and sometimes 'ISP in Manchester, I2 United Kingdom' which is nearer the mark but still six hours away (not disclosing what form of transport that is in), so that'll keep them all guessing as to where I really am.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-04-05 14:04
Chris; I was wondering how you do that. Do you think it would be possible to stamp a Buffet logo into my imperial so i can fly under the mafia radar?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-05 14:56
Maybe writing Buffet on it with a fine tipped gold pen might work, but make the left and right sides of the logo more prominent than the entire centre section.
Funny thing with B&H publications is the cover art with the line drawing of a clarinet on it - it's a B&H clarinet they've drawn and added the Buffet logo to it (same with the oboe).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-04-05 19:39
Chris; in these days of Virgin Rail etc........Macclesfield cold be 6 hours from Manchester.....at least it could have been when I was assigned in the UK a few years ago......I remember trying to get from Derby to Shrewsbury - took three times as long as from East Midlands Apt to Vienna!!!(smile, smile)
cheers
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-04-06 07:09
The thing is, variants on the 1010 live on in Eaton and Rossi. It does not seem the same re the 926. The closest I can see is Hanson's 14.9mm design (which I think may be narrower than a 926 - it approximates to a Hawkes & Sons bore size).
No-one has ever analysed sufficiently (for me at least) why the 926 did not do as well as the 1010. Some say it served the military bands while the 1010 did the orchestras. That's not true. I was initially taught by two senior players in two different English army bands and both played on 1010s which the army had purchased (c. 1973 - 1977). At some stage the 926 lost cachet, even though B&H stood by it as a design, and never attempted to produce a cheaper 1010 model, which it did do witht he 926 specification. The 926 was sold for only a little less than the 1010.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-06 22:27
I have wondered the same thing re 926/1010.
One story I heard many years back was that the original 1920's 1010 design was intended as the Boehm system replacement for the wide bore simple system clarinets (often from Belgium) widely used by military players of that era.
In the event it was the 926 that became widely used in staff bands at least but sometimes the solo clarinetists were issued 1010's as also were the Solo players in Royal Marine bands.
I know of several principal players in major orchestras who did use 926's but one eventually switched to 1010 because the then current conductor (Silvestri) wanted "more sound", I think the 926 was a little quieter in that respect though personally I much prefer its sound quality (as did the player who switched).
Any factual information would be interesting.
.
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-04-10 12:31
Well, I bought them. He lowered the price to $800, and threw in three mouthpieces: one that's original, one unmarked, and a Reginald Kell 926 mouthpiece. Anyone know anything about that one? It's a bit squeaky, and probably needs a refacing to be completely playable. Both clarinets need a tiny bit of work, but are certainly playable now. I find the sound is very rich, and full.
Just though everybody would like to know how everything turned out!
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-10 12:39
Good that you bought them. If you ever need to offload them it looks like you'd be pretty sure to have all your money back anyway!
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