 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-11 20:32
I have found that since vandoren switched to the humidity controlled packaging that I have to leave the reeds sit out for a few weeks before I can begin breaking them in. I have played V12 and blackmasters for years. Does anyone else feel this way? In addition the cane used in the reeds is often of poor quality and appears spongy, unable to hold the focus. I have begun trying many different brands of reeds because of this. I am very disappointed and really feel the reeds need to adjust on the way here(to the humidity) but should be controlled once they arrive and are broken in. I apologize if this has been posted before but I am new to the group. Thanks
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-03-11 21:14
I agree completely. I think they are just covering up for bad quality cane and or bad quality manufacturing. I have noticed that in the past year and a half or so I have begn having to soak them in water for about an hour and then let them dry out, then get a couple good ones. After that, as you mentioned, I have to let them wait a while before they get really good. Very very unfortunate.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-11 22:16
The boxes they come in are miles too big to be practical (won't fit inside my double case lid) and you have to unwrap them all first to try them out instead of just taking them out of the plastic holder.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2009-03-11 23:09
You are not alone.
I wish they would go back to the little pinkish-purplish boxes, and lose the plastic holders.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-03-11 23:16
Please stop playing Vandoren if you don't like them. There are a lot of as good or even better reeds out there which also come in much smaller packs. I just can't understand why people buy Vandoren and complain and buy more Vandoren and complain even more. This is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-11 23:19
I like Vandoren reeds and use them all the time on all saxes and clarinets, but don't like the amount of extra packaging they now come in.
I thought the cellophane wrapping and the bit of paper with info on mouthpiece facings etc. was excessive, but now the ginormous box and the individually foil wrapped reeds are just overkill.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-03-11 23:20)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-03-12 00:08
Iceland:
Each type of reed has a different sound, and everyone has a different sound concept. For me, a very good Vandoren is closer to my concept of sound as other brands I have tried.
I also feel that Vandoren feel wonderful to play on, where as other reeds I feel that I have to work in a different way to get my sound.
This is why people keep talking about Vandoren, because a great Vandoren reed can be fantastic, and I, and I think many others, think that the amount of these golden reeds are now much less from Vandoren than they used to be.
On a side note, I luckily found a box and a half of the old packaged blue box 3.5s at a local music store.
I've opened the half box, and wow! What a difference. The reeds taste different than the new ones, and play in a completely different, wonderful way (brings back memories)
I, sadly, destroyed them because I'm now so used to over humidifying my reeds, which these don't seem to need. Shows the difference. Of course these reeds are better aged, but still. . .
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-03-12 00:16
I don't like the new packaging at all. How should I be breaking them in? Because I'm still a student, I've only recently become aware of the fact that you shouldn't just slap a reed on a mouthpiece and play it until it dies. There seems to be a lot of differing opinions on how to break in reeds. Could someone give me a step-by-step process?
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-03-12 00:48
Here are a few points I've collected after reading several BBoard members' reed break-in procedure...
-The reed break-in period should be around 1 week. The slower you break in a reed, the longer it will last.
-Don't play too much on the first few days.
-Play at a mp-mf dynamic level and don't play in the altissimo register.
-Polishing the back of the reed prevents warpage.
I have no idea whether or not these things are actually good for the reed... perhaps all of it is useless and does nothing?
Anyhow, I follow these guidelines to be on the "safe" side. IMO, my reeds last a LONG time... my best V12 just went past it's "concert quality" last month. It lasted about 3 months. It's still a good practice reed though.
I ordered some Rico Reserves and Gonzalez FOFs recently and they are both absolutely amazing. I wouldn't say they're as good as my best V12 (although the Gonzalez FOF has the tone quality of it or better; the Rico Reserve's response and feel just is terrific too.), but they are extremely good alternatives that are definitely worth a try. I'm still trying to figure out how to adjust the Gonzalez FOF because I found them a little hard for me to play, yet I LOVE the sound of it.
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-12 15:02
clariknight,
I have been told that Vandoren now uses Argentinian cane and not french cane and that is why the quality is poor. I have tried the Gonzalez and Mozart reeds and have not found them to be conducive to the type of sound I want to produce. I also had an old box of V12 lying around, srattle and agree with you, they still played better than the new V12 one year later.
On another note I have tried the RICO reserves and found that I only had to allow them to sit for about 1 week and could begin to break them in. Any opinions on the RICO reserves?
Finally years ago I used to also use Barre reeds but the distributor here in the US does not import them any longer and does not know what happened to them. I liked the cane does anyone know what became of them or where I can get them? thanks
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-03-12 15:18
In response to Rico Reserves - I tried a couple at a clarinet day. They were OK, but not great. I have been meaning to get a full box sometime to make sure I didn't just get two bad ones. Perhaps today is the day?
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-12 15:19
I, too, have been complaining about the new packaging and performance of recent boxes of V12s. Halfway through our last Tues BJSO rehearsal I decided to "stand test" the Vandoran I was using (it failed miserably) and put on a Rico Reserve that had been curing in my reed case for a couple of weeks. Amazing--it played with such sound and flexability that I am considering using it for our weekend concert series over the other V12s that are in line. That Rico Reserve was almost like playing the old Vandorans from the past--at least, worth trying a few more.
Besides, the Vandoran folks aren't going to listen to us until we stop buying their reeds............$$
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-12 15:20
Curinfinwe,
Here is how I break in my reeds. Depending on the brand, for Vandoren I remove the reeds from the inner wrappings and allow them to sit out for several weeks so that the cane adjusts to the local humidity. I date my boxes when I open them so I can keep track. I do this for all reeds.
I always use warm water to soak the reed, this always gives me better results than cold tap water. The soak time varies depending on the humidity but I try not to exceed more than five minutes.
One very excellent clarinetist I studied with told me never to play on the new reeds more than a few minutes when breaking them in. I know it is difficult to do when you are in a reed crunch but I have observed this and the reeds that are broken in this way will last longer.
I never make adjustments on reeds that are being broken in, the reed needs to adjust to the local humidity. The reed will continue to change. Of course if it is of poor quality it will not get any better and I immediately discard those reeds.
I never play on the reeds consecutive days I allow them to rest several days between plays.
In general reeds that are free blowing immediately will end up being too soft to support the altissimo register. Once I determine the better reeds during the break in phase I put them in a humidity controlled case to try and prolong their playing life.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-03-12 16:55
I keep the old boxes of 56s and just put the hydo-dingy reeds in there so I can actually fit them into my case.
I have not had the same problem finding reeds out of the new packages though. A good three minute soak is all you need before five minutes of play on either old or new package. In fact, I think I might be getting better results with the new package reeds, but as I stated, I throw out the new box for the old...........too easy.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-03-12 17:33
I hate the packing...just another frustation ...I think they should just go back to the old paper slip cases. On the stand before concerts this packaging is unworkable and unwanted...however
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-03-12 20:00
reedwizard,
I am impressed with the Rico Reserves. The feel and response of a Rico Reserve is very good. The sound of it quite dark and resonant; however I would prefer a slightly brighter-sounding reed. I just feel like I can't project enough with a Rico Reserve. I've only tested one Rico Reserve so far, and I would rank it 3rd among my reeds. 1st is my best V12, and very close in 2nd is my Gonzalez FOF.
Also, anyone noticing some of the Rico Reserves are unevenly cut? When looking at the heel of the reed, the right side looks to be higher than the left side. I'm not sure if this significantly affects anything though.
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-12 20:16
CX,
Do you have a reed a Perfecta Reed? I find them quite helpful in making adjustments on the reed. This way you can tell reasonably well where to balance the reed.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-03-12 20:19
No I don't have a PerfectaReed. I have the ATG system, and it's been extremely helpful with reeds. I still feel like I can't perfect a reed (haha, unintentional pun) though. I also think I've diagnosed the reed problem, but can't fix it very well.
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-12 20:27
What is the ATG system, I have not heard of it? How does it work? In regards to fixing reeds most excellent players that I studied with have told me the less done the better, and I agree.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-13 15:45
cxgreen wrote: "Also, anyone noticing some of the Rico Reserves are unevenly cut? When looking at the heel of the reed, the right side looks to be higher than the left side."
LOL--that's nothing new. Vandorans came up with this as "business as usual" years ago. However, back when our Vandoran friends made decent reeds (btw, they have never been "great"), some of my best playing reeds have had uneven heels. It is more important to check the shoulders on either side of the cut and the eveness of the xylem at the tip than worry about those heels.
reedwizard: I don't have a Perfecta Reed gauge, but I do have a Reed Wizard reed profiler--for me, it is an indespensable reed adjustment tool which I use all the time. Got to--I'm a klutz and very dangerous with a knife.........
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-03-13 16:00
cxgreen says
"I am impressed with the Rico Reserves. The feel and response of a Rico Reserve is very good. The sound of it quite dark and resonant; however I would prefer a slightly brighter-sounding reed."
Try the Grand Concerts, either regular or thick blank they may provide what you want.
It is funny to hear the comments about when Vandorens used to be good. I have had colleagues speak warmly about the older reeds, from 20- 30 years ago that were so good. Back when those reeds were new, I recall people complained about them and reminisced about the earlier days when they were good.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-13 16:01
1990 was a particularly bad year for reeds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-03-13 17:10
>>>What is the ATG system, I have not heard of it? How does it work?
Look here for an explanation: http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/ATG1.html
To add to the thread... I despise the packaging Vandoren currently inflicts on us. Wasteful and completely unnecessary. If we are to believe the comments on their site, however, we are in direct opposition to the rest of the world. Somehow I doubt this.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-03-13 17:12)
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-03-13 19:16
So yesterday, I played on my Rico Reserve again and I was amazed. I don't know what happened, but it sounds and feels (exactly) like my best Vandoren V.12. So perhaps I should move those Rico Reserves to #1 on my reed list now...
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-14 14:20
LOL--Ed said: "It is funny to hear the comments about when Vandorens used to be good. I have had colleagues speak warmly about the older reeds, from 20- 30 years ago that were so good. Back when those reeds were new, I recall people complained about them and reminisced about the earlier days when they were good."
I've also "been around" for a few years and IMHO, Vandorans have always been bad. It's just that this year, they are remarkably *more* bad. Is it the flow packaging or an unfortunate growing year for cane--whatever!!!! I just wish I could go back to those old 1950's Vandorans that were simply packed loose, twenty to the box. Ah yes--those were the "bad old days".
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2009-03-14 15:48
"1990 was a particularly bad year for reeds."
What?
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-16 14:21
I have found that within the past ten years I used to be able to find two reeds per box that were at least practice worthy reeds and one performance reed per 2-3 boxes. I now am finding no practice reeds per box; I might find one per 2-3 boxes.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-03-17 22:58
Edited: (by david b)
I thought that the vitalizer packs that the Reserve Reeds are packed with weren't working packs, but a tech at Rico assured me that they all are active and are 32%.
That is quite dry and you wouldn't want to use it with playing reeds, only for packing the reeds would that level be useful.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2009-03-18 21:30)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-03-18 00:44
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> The real packs have a Humidity % on the package.
> If the package doesn't list the humidity level,
> it's a dummy pack. Nobody officially has told me that,
> it's just from experience.
The most recent Rico Reserve reeds I got actually had 38% (or was it 33% ? ) on the enclosed pack. I assume that it is a very low humidity pack just to keep the reeds from totally drying out.
...GBK
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-03-18 13:29
> "I now am finding no practice reeds per box; I might find one per 2-3 boxes."
Now hang on a minute, reedwizard. Are you really buying 2-3 boxes to find a practice reed?
At what point do we decide this has all got just a wee bit out of hand in some way?
*
FWIW, my own experiences (imho, ymmv, etc, etc):
1. Yes, the box is a daft size for ten reeds. Looks expensive, tho, which is perhaps the point.
2. I've always liked those little plastic holders.
3. I'm beginning to think that old reeds play better simply cos they're old. If this is true then there has to be a market for pre-aged reeds. Anyone?
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2009-03-18 13:51
Has anyone looked into the veracity of the idea that the cane is coming from South America and not the south of France? I hadn't heard that before reading this post.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-03-18 15:18
Good luck
Post Edited (2009-03-18 23:44)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-18 15:39
IMHO, no amount of preparation, "break in", or other finishing work will make any difference with these recent Vadoran reeds. Maybe it isn't even so much the packaging as it is the fact that they just are not as good as they used to be. It isn't the mouthpiece, clarinet or the player--it's the recent bad crop of cane and Vandorans inability to deal with it inteligently. Hmmm......bad arundo domax?? I know what, lets dress it up in spiffy new packaging and maybe no one will notice. Well, Vandoran folks, I and a lot of my friends here in Madison have noticed and you may be losing some business.
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-03-18 15:55
William,
I agree with you, the fact that I am not finding reeds good enough that I would practice on is entirely due to the poor quality of cane that these vandorens now contain. Working on a reed of poor quality cane will not help it to focus or create the sound that you are regularly producing on your instrument with a reed of good quality cane. I have stopped buying vandoren reeds for this reason because I am wasting my money and time.
I was told by Albert Alphin that vandoren is now using argentinian cane and not french cane. You can contact him if you wish more information, grenadilla if you want.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-03-18 20:47
I have found that if I take the reeds out of the flow packs approximately a week before I start to break them in, they play a lot better than if I leave them in the original package until I start to break them in. When I started to play the reeds directly from the flow packs, I felt that I needed to preserve them in a zip bag so that they wouldn't dry out. Now I don't feel like this is necessary.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-03-18 21:32
William and reedwizard,
I have to agree with this quote: "IMHO, no amount of preparation, "break in", or other finishing work will make any difference with these recent Vandoran reeds."
Although I find the ATG reed finishing system to do wonders on most reeds, the sound quality of most of my V.12s aren't very vibrant and somewhat airy sounding. I'm wondering if the problem is my reed adjustment or the reed quality...
BTW, really loving the Gonzalez FOF right now.
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2009-03-18 23:49
I would like to see a 'pro-pak' - a box of 25 or 50 loose reeds packed with a little foam to keep the reeds from moving around too much. If one chips, too bad. Avoiding chips is one of the big reasons for the plastic reed holders. It makes sense in a little music store that sells reeds one at a time to beginning students but, for serious players, it's necessary to try 10-20 at a sitting. Too much hassle getting rid of the packaging.
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