 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-27 05:22
Has anybody ever heard of a Kessler Custom Low C Bass Clarinet? Apparently they are sold by the Kessler & Sons Company out of Las Vegas. The price according to the site is $2,095.00.
Since I am in the market for a bass clarinet and after receiving suggestions about the YCL 221 II bass clarinet now I am curious about this horn. If it sounds good at all or if the horn is bad and you get what you pay for. I am seriously thinking on going to Las Vegas to try the bass, also so weekend fun would not be bad either. This is the least expensive low c bass clarinet I habe ever heard off.
So does anybody have any experience with that instrument good or bad?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-27 15:13
I've never heard of it but that doesn't mean it's good or bad though I've learned at least one lesson in life, you get what you pay for. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 a little Mozart
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-07-27 15:45
I'm currently using one in the pit at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival. So far, it's doing the job quite well.
I don't know how it would fare in an orchestral setting, but for the pit doubling/big band/concert band applications that are my bread and butter, it's quite satisfactory.
I quite like dealing with Dave Kessler too. Spent some time on the phone with him before making the decision to get it. I ordered it when I was living in Toronto, and the instrument arrived well packed and in great shape.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-27 22:42
The good points about a low-C bass clarinet are that you can play an extra 3 semi-tones down if you need them, you gain some alternative long fingerings to the throat tones and the extra length often improves some of the notes around low Eb - F and clarion B - C.
The bad points are that the instrument is heavier and longer, sometimes making it a nuisance to schlep around if you are also carrying a soprano clarinet or two and/or a sax or two. It also has a lot of additional plumbing and, even the good ones can be fussy to keep in adjustment.
I expect that the way you are planning to use the instrument will rarely, if ever, call for any notes below Eb (and, in a pinch, there is a way to get D on a low Eb bass). In my experience, only a very few modern works for band (which are rarely played by community bands) call for extended range and even then, don't use it extensively so it's easy to work around. I suspect the same is true for clarinet choir because most composers deliberately write for a low Eb bass to maximize sales potential. Since I've had my low-C bass, I don't think I've ever used the alternate long fingerings for the throat notes. So, I suspect that a low-C instrument won't be much benefit to you unless you join an orchestra.
I would recommend you give some consideration to whether the additional cost (I see that the Yamaha is listed at $1,642 new at Woodwind and Brasswind) and potential inconvenience of a low-C bass is worth the limited benefits you will get. Without seeing the Kessler model, I suspect the Yamaha is a better-made instrument. Yamaha is a reputable company and, since I have played one, I can say that the 221 II plays very nicely. My guess is that the Kessler is a Chinese stencil model. It's too bad Kessler apparently doesn't carry Yamaha so that you could try the two basses side-by-side.
With the money you save, you could buy yourself a good custom-made mouthpiece and ligature and perhaps a lifetime supply of reeds. (Though I get the feeling that money is not a major consideration in your case.)
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-07-27 23:19
An excellent summary for consideration by our "newbie" bass cl'ists, Jack. In my playings of concert band and non-symphonic orchestral music, I've seen only a few low D's, most with the "octave D" suggested. I have never felt/found the need of those 3 notes, either. Spend any moneys on a V G low Eb bass ! PM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-28 00:38
I am not a newbie bass clarinet player. I been playing bass clarinet quite sometime on and off. Just want bass clarinet of my own. I play with the San Diego Clarinet Society Clarinet Choir. All of the music we play there is arranged by the conductor. Since the regular bass clarinet player in the group has a Buffet Low C bass clarinet ALL of the music is arrange for Low C Bass. Since the bass clarinet guy is a professional musician he can't always make rehearsals so there is a guy doubling soprano and bass and he says is very difficult to play the bass clarinet part because all of the notes below Eb.
When the choir returns to rehearsal at the end of the summer break I was planning on going back and play Contra Alto clarinet since all of the music is arrange with a Contra Alto clarinet part too. That is why I order a Selmer 1440 EEb Contra Alto Clarinet from the wwbw about three weeks ago, after hearing good things about that horn from members of the board, but the instrument is not on stock and I will not get the horn until the end of August.
So now I need a bass clarinet, I was originally going to buy the YCL 221 II bass clarinet after hearing good things about that horn also from members of this board but since I found the Kessler Custom Low C Bass Clarinet I was wondering if it is good to give it a try. I would definitely get a good use the extra low notes because of the music we play at the choir as I mention above. But I was also thinking if that instrument is one of those poorly made Chinese instruments as Jack Kissinger mention.
Merlin_Williams did not seem to be unhappy with the Kessler bass he has based on the post he made on this thread. I wish he post more info on the horn especially the way the instrument seems to be manufacture, is it a sturdy instrument or does it feel very cheap, how is the mechanism, etc...
Quote:
Though I get the feeling that money is not a major consideration in your case.
Money is a major consideration I know what I can afford and what I kind not afford. In my current situation, I am glad that I can afford to buy two brand new instrument that I wanted for quite sometime now but I don't like to spend 3,000+ on and instrument that would never be played in a professional situation.
The price difference from the YCL 221 II and the Kessler bass is only 453.00 dollars. I think it is worth it to pay 453.00 dollars for the extra notes on the Kessler bass, considering it sounds good. But the difference is not even 453.00 since the instrument comes with a Kessler Custom Handmade Bass Clarinet mouthpiece that cost 129.00 dollars so the difference is more like 324.00 dollars.
The other bass clarinet to Low C that I have seem that is not as expensive as the Yahama 622 $6,710, Buffet $9,025.00, Selmer $9,049.00 Low C bass clarinets is the Ridenour Lyrique Bb low C bass clarinet that sells for $2,995.00 with Ridenour professional handmade bass clarinet Mouthpiece: $3,125.00
I MIGHT be able to afford the Ridenour Lyrique Bb low C bass clarinet, the other ones never, but I would never pay that much for a bass clarinet. $1353 difference from my original choice of the YCL 221 is big.
Now that everything is in perspective with the other Low C bass clarinets the price difference between my original choice YCL 221 and the Kessler is not that bad. Now the way it sounds that is another thing.
I hope I can get more opinions about this topic with all of this new info I posted. Either regarding the instrument or the way I am thinking.
Sorry for the very long post.
-José
Post Edited (2008-07-28 00:58)
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Author: blazian
Date: 2008-07-28 21:09
I've never had to play a low D, but I've messed around with a few parts and transposed them down for fun. It's easy to play a low D if you have a bass clarinet with low Eb on the body and an extra bell with a key over the hole.
- Martin
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-07-28 22:51
From what I understand, Kessler worked with Amati to make this possible. I could be mistaken. Amati instruments are much higher quality than they were 30 or 40 years ago, and since there's a trial available, it may very well be worth your time to find out for yourself.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-31 14:07
I e-mail Dave Kessler from Kessler and Son Music company to ask about the
Kessler Custom Low C Bass Clarinet. I was planning on going to Vegas this weekend to try to horn but unfortunately they do not have any, they are out of stock. He told me that in will be close to November before they get any more Low C bass clarinet. So now I am stuck with just my Bb, A, Eb sopranos and alto. We thought buying a clarinet was going to be such a hassle. I am still waiting for my Contra-alto from the wwbw that should arrive at the end of August and now I have to wait until November to try this Low C bass, what a drag.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-08-07 12:33
I was looking at pictures of this bass and the Lyrique- Do they look similar to anyone else? Not that it's bad, and the acoustical finishing might be very different for the two of them, but the pictures for the case and the thumb keys looks the same.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-08-07 14:49
They do look similar in many ways, and it's definitely possible that they are made in the same factory (but maybe not), using the (some of) the same keys (or not). The only difference that is easy to see in the photos is the trill keys which are long keys on the Lyrqiue and levers on the Kessler (assuming the photos are updated).
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Author: Don Gross
Date: 2008-08-07 14:50
Jose,
As the contra alto/contrabass player in the Los Angeles Clarinet Choir, unless you can find a rosewood Selmer contra alto, I would strongly encourage you look for/try out a "vintage" Bundy contra alto instead of a "new" Selmer 1440 contra alto. I got mine from a jazz doubler in Los Angeles and also had the priviledge of trying the same model that Charlie Bay modified some years ago that he said he'd put up against any rosewood Selmer contra alto any day. Vintage Bundy's can be had for right around $1,000 on eBay from what, at least on the surface, seem to be reputable sellers. With the tonal demands of a clarinet choir, I would be leery about anything coming out of Conn/Selmer USA these days.
Don
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-08-07 17:07
Don Gross,
The reason I decided to buy the Selmer USA Contra-alto clarinet is because of the information I got from this thread I started http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=277237&t=277163
Everybody kept mentioning that the Selmer Bundy contra-alto was a good instrument. I just assume that a new Selmer USA Contra-alto clarinet was going to be as good or better then an old Bundy.
My only experience I have with Selmer is a Selmer USA Alto Clarinet I have.
Quote:
With the tonal demands of a clarinet choir, I would be leery about anything coming out of Conn/Selmer USA these days.
My question is, why do you think that a new Selmer USA Contra-alto would not be as good as an older Bundy Contra-alto?
Post Edited (2008-08-07 17:08)
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-02-17 01:41
Ok so now I'm a little more intersted this Kessler low C bass.
Has anyone played one recently? I've searched most of the threads mentioning Kessler and it's instruments already. Are the Kessler bass clarinets of the same quality? The website says it's in stock now so should I order one to try it out?
- Martin
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Author: DixieSax
Date: 2009-02-17 01:52
I can't speak directly to the Kessler Bass Clarinet, but I do own two Kessler saxophones, and find them to be excellent instruments, particularly at their price point. Merlin is highly respected on the SOTW forum and the Woodwind forum, and he has good things to say about the Kessler - certainly enough to make it worth a try, and Dave Kessler is more than willing to work with his customers to arrange trials, etc.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-17 15:33
What I'm about to write is speculation, and I would welcome any information to the contrary, although I've yet to see any. I believe that all the 'bargain' low-C bass clarinets currently on the market, whether branded 'Arioso', 'Ridenour', 'Kessler', 'Woodwind & Brasswind' or whatever, are essentially the same instrument (possibly with minor variations in trim and keywork), and are Chinese-made hard-rubber copies of the Yamaha design.
I hope to be proved wrong about this, but it seems awfully hard to obtain information on the source of these instruments from their sellers.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2009-02-17 17:05
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> What I'm about to write is speculation, and I would welcome any
> information to the contrary, although I've yet to see any. I
> believe that all the 'bargain' low-C bass clarinets currently
> on the market, whether branded 'Arioso', 'Ridenour', 'Kessler',
> 'Woodwind & Brasswind' or whatever, are essentially the same
> instrument (possibly with minor variations in trim and
> keywork), and are Chinese-made hard-rubber copies of the Yamaha
> design.
>
They do look awfully similar to the Yamahas. However, the RH trill keys are split like on the Selmer basses.
Add the Noblet Mistral to the list of similar low C basses. It's marketed by Nobel Band Instruments in Quebec.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-02-17 20:14
I have, too, seen the similarities between these instruments. I have played the lower quality Ridenour low C bass before. It wasn't absolutely horrible. I liked the overall sound that I got from the notes I could play. I was hoping that since the bass clarinet is being distributed by a reputed dealer and in general the Chinese copies of Yamaha instruments have improved, that this bass clarinet is finally the deal people have been looking for.
- Martin
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-02-18 01:17
I'm referring to the one from a few years ago that many people disliked. The school I attend ended up with one when a supposedly "concert" quality Vito was taken to and broken at a football game. The user had to buy another one and at that time Brook Mays was liquidating so she bought the Ridenour.
Nobody has played that thing for more than ten minutes. I think this is the third year in a row that it's sitting on top of the bandhall shelves. I had a bass clarinet friend (HS freshman) try it and he couldn't play it. I grabbed my mouthpiece and tried it right after him and got a bunch of notes out (not everything). I liked what I could play.
I'm well acquainted with the keywork on the bass clarinet in question. I took apart some sections of keywork and stuff to figure out what was wrong. The only major issue was a weak C#/G# pinky key spring and the neck key being bent just far enough off. It still didn't work properly after I fixed those.
Seeing the keywork on the Kessler I'd say that they are similar in design and concept but the Kessler has some good features such as the reinforcing arms and the split trill keys. Perhaps it's worth a try!
Edit: Note - I like the pad cups on the newer low C Ridenour. Selmer style with a "hard edge" instead of rounded
- Martin
Post Edited (2009-02-18 01:57)
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2009-02-18 01:31
I bought my soprano from Kessler and Son, and the customer service was great. I know that he looks over every instrument before you buy it and will fix any glitches you let him know about. He is a great person to do business with! I would recommend him to my mother.
Jonathan Kelly
jkelly32562@troy.edu
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2009-03-03 23:10
Last Saturday I went into to Kessler's and tried the Kessler Low C bass clarinet. I own a bass clarinet mouthpiece but not a bass clarinet.
I had recently spent some time playing a friends low C Buffet (nice) and trying to play an older Selmer low E-flat.
The Kessler has a true double register key and played well right out of the case. I thought the low end of the clarion which seems to be the problem area for many bass clarinets was very good.
Chuck (Kessler) has a Selmer low C I wanted to try too, but bass clarinets don't like Las Vegas weather very much and all the keys on the lower end of the horn were binding and he said it would take 2 hours to adjust it and didn't have the time.
I thought the intonation was fair and with the right reed and mouthpiece would probably be better. I tried it with my Vandoren B-40 and the mouthpiece he had on the instrument (which included a fibracell reed). With my mouthpiece, I felt like it wanted a slightly softer reed than anything I had (2 1/2). The intonation was probably best with my mouthpiece and the fibracell reed, but I also got that "whine" sound occasionally and don't care for it at all.
The low C was in tune but of the two notes above it one was flat and the other sharp. The thumb mechanism for the extended notes does not win any awards but it does work.
I tried a Chinese low C bass clarinet at NAMM a few years ago and this instrument was much better.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-03 23:24
Maybe it's just me but I don't see how anyone can make a quality instrument and sell it retail at this price. Several years ago a student of mine got three bass clarinets from WoodWind that were made in The Czech Republic and the metal was so soft we couldn't even play them because they got so bent out of shape. They were "cheap" in every sense of the word. You will have to excuse me for being so skeptical about these. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2009-03-04 00:10
I thought it was decent and certainly a good value. I don't think I really need a low C, as I am short and the extra length is inconvenient, and it is the weakest part of this instrument (IMO). The keywork seemed fine.
I have a Chinese made C clarinet and although it had some intonation issues (which I have been able to fix to some extent) I have been happy with it.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-03-13 03:10
Is the newer Orpheo bass clarinet related to the Kessler Custom? I've seen them being sold on a few sites for cheaper prices than the Kessler. It looks like pretty much the same thing.
- Martin
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2009-03-13 16:15
Why don't you see if you can get some pictures and try to figure this out yourself?
I think there may be several "generations" of Chinese made low-C bass clarinets floating around. As I said previously, I thought the Kessler I tried was much better than the Arioso I tried at the NAMM show about 3 years ago.
Gary
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Author: Fred
Date: 2009-03-13 17:03
For those of you that have never dealt with Kessler Music, I must say that Dave Kessler is a joy to deal with. He is very honest about his products and will give you an honest assessment of what he is selling.
Absolutely the best way to contact Dave is to call him. His is a family-run music store, and email just doesn't come up on the radar screen the way a phone call does.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-03-13 22:19
I've stared at pictures of the Orpheo, Kessler, and Ridenour bass clarinet for hours! I've seen the similarities. I've seen the differences. I haven't heard or touched them though. The only one of the three I've played is the original Ridenour. I can't compare it to the newer model or the other two that I haven't tried.
What I really need to know is how the keywork feels between them, like if it's flimsy or weak on one and a bit sturdier on another. I'm also interested if there are any sound differences between them like tone quality and intonation between notes.
- Martin
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2009-03-14 23:42
You are just going to have to try at least some of them. Not that easy when you are in high school.
Here is my take again. I thought the Arioso I tried a few years ago played like what you might imagine a Bundy low C would be like. Problems in the upper register. The keywork was ok.
I thought the Kessler played much better. The keywork is ok from a strength stand point. The double register mechanism worked fine. There are some mechanical issues with the lowest notes. There may be some intonation issues. Some are probably fixable with the right mouthpiece and reeds. Others may not be so easy.
(As an aside I was discussing this with a friend of mine who had a Yamaha low C for a while which he sent back because of intonation problems. I wonder if the companies in China have copied a Yamaha low C which would be much easier for them to get rather than a Buffet or Selmer. I have heard that a lot of the flutes made in China are copies of Yamahas.)
I would guess that around 2011 there will probably be another generation of these instruments that will get them closer in French instruments in mechanism and intonation. The downside is they will probably be over $4000 by then and won't look like so much of a bargain.
Gary
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Author: DWaugh
Date: 2010-03-23 13:42
Has anyone here tried the Orpheo low C bass clarinets lately? I am seriously considering one, but haven't been able to find any reviews on them.
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