 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-02-07 08:06
I am experimenting with an embouchure that involves moving my lower jaw forward slightly until my bottom teeth directly oppose the top ones - a basic biting position you might use on a banana, well I do anyway.
I used to play oboe and this position reminds me very much of an oboe embouchure, also it is what I would have to do to get a double-lip embouchure on the clarinet. However, I am resting my top teeth on the mpc not my lip. Lip on the reed, of course.
Previously I was letting my bottom teeth stay in their "at rest" alignment, which is just behind my top ones.
The new idea seems to be working quite well for me and I am getting as good if not better sound than before. I have to be careful not the put too much mpc in my mouth or the sound becomes coarse, but that's not hard.
The benefits seem to be better sound in chalumeau, easier altissimo, possiblility for even higher altissimo, more attention to maintaining embouchure.
At present it is a little more tiring than before but seems to be becoming quite natural fairly quickly.
Does anyone else use this approach? Is it a good idea or am I storing up troubles for later? Or just thoughts and opinions?
Tony
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-07 08:33
I tried something like this a while ago, and got the same kind of results that you describe. You mention that you get more tired doing this... the reason is that you're exerting constant pressure on your jaw by pushing it forward into the reed. Over time you can develop an overuse injury - which is what happened to me when I developed TMJ disfunction and couldn't play for three weeks... or even chew oatmeal. Remember, overuse injuries are cumulative.
Basically you're getting the benefits of allowing more reed to vibrate. There's another way to get the same result. Instead of jutting your jaw forward, bring the clarinet a bit closer to your body when you play. This way you bring more reed into your mouth without exerting any extra effort. You'll probably have to relax more to get it to work, but that can only be a good thing.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-02-07 13:49
Why do you have to push your jaw forward to play double lip on the clarinet?
For most of my playing life I have used double lip embouchure but have no problem doing this with a natural jaw alignment.
Perhaps key is using only a very minimal amount of lip over both the top and the bottom teeth. This also means that instead of what seems to me to be a lump of "dead" lip over the teeth when you insert too large a quantity of lip over the teeth you can retain a feeling and muscalature control of the lips.
Yes I find this a little more strenuous than single lip, and a little more tiring, but for me personnaly is worth the effort.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-07 14:08
The "old" school of thought, at least what was described to me as a student once, was to have as little MP in your mouth with the top teeth and as much reed as possible with your bottom lip. That gave you an angle that the clarinet was almost straight up and down to your body. Now, I believe, most players take more MP in their mouth on top so the angle is more like 30 - 45 degrees. A lot depends on your teeth formation of course, over bite, under bite of the top teeth and how your bottom teeth line up etc. Taking too much MP can produce a harsh tone and lack of control, taking too little can produce a small or pinched tone. You should experiment with slightly different angles and settle on the one that gives you the best result overall. I spent an entire lesson with Robert Marcellus once experimenting with the angle until we both agreed that taking a bit more with my top teeth and a slightly more forward position gave me a better result. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-07 14:44
gigaday wrote:
> I am experimenting with an embouchure that involves moving my
> lower jaw forward slightly until my bottom teeth directly
> oppose the top ones - a basic biting position you might use on
> a banana, well I do anyway.
The result is what's most important. No one but you really cares much (or can really tell) how you produce your sound as long as it's musical and expressively flexible. That said, I'd be aware in trying what you're describing of excessive fatigue anywhere in the muscles involved. "Biting" whether it's how you bite a banana or not, can produce unpleasant results in both response and lip injuries, if you end up really pushing your bottom teeth into your lip. Jutting the law forward can, if it's an unnatural enough position or becomes exaggerated over time, cause fatigue and soreness in the tendons at the back of the jaw.
So long as you aren't causing yourself injury and the musical result is an improvement, there's nothing much to recommend against what you're doing. Just do it with care and attention to the results beyond just tone quality and altissimo range. Response and flexibility as well as comfort are at least as important as tone quality itself.
Karl
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-02-07 17:35
Thanks to all for your thoughts. The warning on TMJ dysfunction is particularly useful so I shall watch out for this. I am going to continue with what I am doing for a little while to see if things get better or worse >:-(
I haven't been able to get on too well with holding the instrument closer to my body but maybe I could give it another try some time and I find it very difficult to double-lip in this position.
I didn't mean to say that I am actually biting, just that the teeth are opposed as if I were about to bite. I am pretty sure that this is the basic oboe embouchure position.
I'll take on the caveats offered here and continue in my search for the "perfect embouchure".
Tony
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-02-07 21:39
Quote:
Why do you have to push your jaw forward to play double lip on the clarinet?
For most of my playing life I have used double lip embouchure but have no problem doing this with a natural jaw alignment.
I have a slightly recessed jaw and switched to double lip in college after playing 10 years with the single lip embouchure. So I have experience in both.
You don't have to move your jaw forward to play double lip - it happens automatically. Because of the muscular structure of the face, when you draw your top lip over your top teeth your lower jaw is pulled into a more forward position automatically.
For a person with an imperfectly aligned jaw, double lip helps to keep this alignment without tiring the muscles of the lower jaw. In single lip embouchure, even while keeping the top lip engaged, there is still more tension in the lower jaw when trying to keep it in a forward position. I can't speak for every person with TMJ, but many of the clarinetists I've known to suffer with this condition also had recessed jaws/overbites and played single lip. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule...and on this board, but this is what I have run accross. I don't know what the data is on TMJ & clarineting, but it would make an intersting study.
Not everyone is built to play double lip, but at the very least it's an intersting tool to use to check for an optimum embouchure position.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-02-08 13:22
grifffinity wrote:
> You don't have to move your jaw forward to play double lip - it
> happens automatically. Because of the muscular structure of
> the face, when you draw your top lip over your top teeth your
> lower jaw is pulled into a more forward position automatically.
I think you are right, in any event I find it impossible to double-lip without having top and bottom teeth oppose each other.
Having continued for a few days I am now finding the "teeth-opposed" position completely natural, it's not at all a thrusting forward of the jaw for me. In fact going back to bottom teeth behind top teeth now feels unnatural.
Using "teeth-opposed" I can now double-lip, it's more effort than teeth-on-mpc but not too difficult.
Is there any benefit to double-lip that would make it worth the effort to learn?
tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-02-08 16:53
gigaday wrote:
>
> Is there any benefit to double-lip that would make it worth the
> effort to learn?
>
> tony
I think it depends on which feels more comfortable. I find for myself that I can maintain better control of the mouthpiece using both lips. I tend to leak air around the mouthpiece more with single-lip and feel less secure in making wide leaps, whether legato or staccato. I should say that I can do all of this equally well with single-lip if I consciously work to duplicate with single-lip the same embouchure and oral shape that results, for me, more naturally with double-lip. In fact, when I'm tired or my upper lip is starting to feel irritated, I can resort to single lip and play very easily with equal results. I just feel more secure with the upper lip covering my teeth, so I play that way most of the time.
Karl
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2010-02-08 19:49
I have been playing double lip almost exclusively for two or three months now and I really like it. I tire, leak, and squeak less easily. The sound is nice and warm. The only thing I'm still struggling with is tonging fast passages. I feel like I'm using a different part of my tongue and I don't have the crisp, clean control in 16th note staccato passages that I do with single lip.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-02-13 13:01
Thanks again for everyone's help.
I found Tom Ridenour's video trilogy on Double Lip Embouchure very interesting and have been encouraged to give it a go.
Of course, the first thing I discovered was that it was extremely hard on my top lip because, like it or not, I have been biting even if not very much.
Tom recommends a fingering for C two lines above the stave using the left hand third finger and the lowest right hand trill key so that the instrument is stable without the teeth in contact. No way could I play this note without the extra fingers. Also I am now struggling to go any higher than this C.
I am also finding that using the left hand third finger to stabilise is very helpful for top line F and G (trill key not needed). In fact without this I cannot play DLE for very long but with the third finger I can play for quite a while.
It is possible to keep the left third finger down all the way from F as above through F#, G, G#, A and Bb, which all become more stable as a result.
With all the learning to use new fingerings I was on the point of going back to single lip but I have to admit that my sound is significantly better and I am going to persevere more because to this. I now sound like a beginner (no squeaks though) as I plod through slow exercises and don't know how long it might take to get back to where I thought I was.
I wonder what my teacher is going to say when I go to my next lesson ...
Tony
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-02-13 16:25
Do you really mean LH 3rd finger??
For playing C above the stave its OK to use RH pinky on the f/C key to help stabilise the instrument and this should also work for any notes beween top line G and the C above - however you really just need to practise the DL to firm it up and provide the correct support.
I use a Vandoren Crystal mouthpiece most of the time and do find that it's additional weight changes the balance of the clarinet and provides a little downward pressure on the lower lip which I actually find useful.
However there is no substitute for developing a firmer embouchure especially the top lip, which should develop enough muscular strength to support and steady the mouthpiece and not rely on pressure transmitted down via the top teeth..
Playing in altissimo with DL should be no more difficult than with single.
Tounging is I admit a little harder (at least for me).
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-02-13 17:10
Thanks for that Norman. Yes, I did mean LH third finger but you have drawn my attention to something important.
Using the LH third is OK on my instrument for F#, G, G#, A, Bb but it's flat on the F natural without the side trill key.
If you take a look at Tom Ridenour's video part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E03zHygaXhU
at about 6m15secs onwards he describes some special fingerings. He suggests RH 1, 2 and 3 all down for G but I find that LH 3 does the same job for me.
I'm not sure if I am going down the right/wrong road with this. My feeling is that without some assistance from my fingers at this stage it will be just too steep a hill for me to climb.
I know you are right about the need to strengthen up my embouchure, top lip especially, but without relieving the pressure somewhat at this stage I would have to give up the idea.
Do you think that if I start by using the special fingerings I will be able to get to a point where they become unnecessary as my embouchure strengthens, and then I could either continue with these fingerings if they work well or go back to some more standard ones?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-02-13 21:48
I think you must be talking about F#, G etc in the "throat" or lower register.
Just looked at Tom's video and of course he is talking about B and C just above the stave but talking about G in the throat area (that is 2nd line G).
Both G (lower) and C (higher) use same fingering except for the speaker key so are particularly unstable.
For the lower tones it is the venting of the holes below the fingered hole that is important so that the pitch is not affected.
Every clarinet is a little different so you have to experiment to see what works on yours. From G to Bb usually work with various combinations of the RH fingers down, just experiment. F and anything below would be too flat but then you should not really need extra physical support for those notes.
Tom mentions resting clarinet on ones knee (or between them) - many people may of course disagree with this practice and it's not ideal.
However for some years now I have myself rested the bell on my knee (taking care not to muffle the bell tones) but considered this partly due to my advancing age (sadly now past 70!!) but it really does stabilise the clarinet. In the past I never needed to do this for my DL playing and it certainly would not have been acceptable in my army days - now long past.
However it does really help with stability, especially in the early stages and you can gradually wean yourself off of it as your embouchure strengthens.
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Author: Audi-Graph
Date: 2010-02-15 14:23
Tony,
Tough to say because the resultant sound quality is what (I personally feel) trumps a lot of the technical methods. If you sound amazing, lip placement becomes less of a concern. Unfortunately we can't hear the sound you're producing that you're saying is better than another method.
------------------------------------------
Anthony Vasser - audi-graph@audi-graph.com
http://www.audi-graph.com
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-03-23 16:04
I am still persevering with double lip embouchure. I can play for longer periods now, although my upper lip does get very sore after about an hour.
I am telling myself that my sound is improving, but I have a problem.
Altissimo is very hard still, anything above C two lines above the stave is very hard, although it is easy when I first start a session. I've been doing the double lip for about 3 weeks now.
Any idea how long it might take for my top lip to strengthen up and not get so painful, anyone?
Tony
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