 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-04 04:59
Attachment: before.JPG (43k)
Hi all,
I have decided fix this old clarinet and bring you along for the ride. Yes, if all goes well we will play it.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-04 05:03)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-01-04 13:16
TKS, Mark, we will be happy to hear of your progress. Does it have a name or other identufying info ?, if so, make a Search here for Jim Landes' listings of metal cls [if you haven't already found it !]. It and other searches. might give you more info and possibly advice re: overhaul. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-04 13:43
Some nice touches on it, especially the key arm shapes (speaker and top trill key) and the sockets and tenons with the decorative turning.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-04 22:45
Back again,
Did some cleaning. I find it easier to do a basic cleaning while it is together. (no parts going down the drain, lol)
My guess is that this clarinet was stored in a damp place for an extended period. No dents or dings, the keys are all present, and some actually move. Bonus!! lol
Now comes the hardest part of the whole job...disassembly. The idea here would be to get it apart without doing any damage. Well here goes...
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-26 00:36)
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-05 21:59
Well I soaked the screws and pivots with the Doctors key oil. I have found this to work real well and was able to remove most of the keys. Still have quite a way to go though.
I did identify this clarinet: It is a Buffet model M13 circa 1930. See pic.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-26 00:37)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-06 15:38
What a neat looking old Buffet. I would love to hear how it sounds as I have an old Noblet metal with a surprizingly good tone quality, perhaps from the same era. Is that an articulated G# mechanizm that I see?
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-07 00:21
William,
You are right, it does have an articulated G# mechanism. Interesting configuration though. It has a seesaw on a pivot mounted to the body with the key touch on one side and the pad cup on the other. The needle spring is on the pad cup side and holds the pad closed.
When I get it finished I will post some pics for you to see. I am down to two keys that need removal. The F#/C# first ring and the B sliver key on the lower joint. This won't be easy.
Best regards
Mark
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-09 00:39
Well, I finaly removed the last two keys. Now that this is done it is time to remove all corK, pads, glue, etc.
At least now I can check the springs, straighten any bent keys or pad cups and of course clean and polish.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-26 00:38)
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-09 10:09
Hi, Mark......... interesting task you have there.
I notice in the last photo that the left hand pinkie keys have what looks like circular pins projecting. Can you tell me what these pins engage with........ are they into cork or simply into holes in the metal with no cushioning?
I am curious about this because my newish B12 has nylon(?) pins here and various posters have described these as accidents wating to happen, and it might be a good plan to replace these with metal. I would imagine that if the new pins were a close(ish) fit, there might not be a noise problem.
Chris P.......... if you are reading this, what would you recommend? What metal would you choose............ I thought of stainless soft soldered in place.
Or, are the nylon(?) pins only likely to fail in the event of gross carelessness?..................... H&P
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-09 12:13
You can use adjusting screws to replace the nylon pins. Tap out the holes in the ends of the LH levers with an M2x0.4 tap, and then use adjusting screws with an M2x0.4 thread with a 2.4mm head screwed in place, but file the heads on the adjusting screws so they're spherical (but keeping them 2.4mm at their widest), paper them up and burnish them to a mirror finish.
Depending on how large the holes in the connecting levers are which can vary, you can use cork grease or axle grease to keep the noise down or cover the ends of the pins with pad skin.
The pins on older clarinets are usually integral with the LH levers, though they can be inserts either screwed into the ends or soldered (hard or soft soldered). If they do break, they can be drilled out and inserts can be made and fitted.
Buffet nylon pins are push fit, and if they break flush, they can be removed by heating the end of the key and they'll pop out when the air inside the blind hole expands.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-09 15:28
Hey, Chris...... thanks for your immediate and comprehensive reply. You have given me a lot to think about...... I shall raid my goody box to see what M2s I have....... maybe one with a partial thread could be cut to size.
But, am I worrying too much? Do these pins fail easily? If it were your clarinet would you do this to pre-empt disaster?........... H&P
Re. the noise/play thing, Tom Ridenour in his video stuffs plumber's PTFE tape into loose key pivots.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-09 15:47
Buffet pins mostly fail resulting from a knock or something catching the LH levers, though there are instances where they can fail in normal use due to fatigue. Some fail in transport as the E/B lever is held closed by the spring clip thingy that keeps the pressure on the pin. At rest they're not under any strain, but careless handling can also cause strain on them.
I wouldn't worry too much as there are Buffets around from the mid-'80s (when the nylon pins were first introduced) that still have their original nylon pins in place.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-09 21:38
Someone has said that nylon string used for WeedWhackers can be used for broken pins.
Bob Draznik
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-10 10:57
Attachment: Copper pin.jpg (53k)
Hi, Chris and Bob...........
Take a look at what I found in the goodie box last night...... I bought these a long time ago in a ships chandlers....... they are meant for a marine environment, and are not plated. Would you agree that they were almost designed for the job?
The diameter of 1.75mm must be almost the core dia of an M2 thread, which makes me think that they will maybe press straight into the hole or they could be Araldited or (hopefully, for they may be some odd alloy) soft soldered.
If I decide to have a go at one, how would one remove the original? Will it pull out easily, or would one heat the key and pull at the same time?
It occurs to me that maybe a wire stripper tool might get a grip without causing any damage to the nylon pin.
And Mark....... my apologies for hi-jacking your fascinating posting- it just sort-of happened, and I couldn't think of an alternative solution.
Thanks to all............... H&P.
PS...... I suppose it helps to keep your post at the top of the page!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-10 11:50
The shank on Buffet pins is 1.8mm, so either Araldite or superglue them in. You can do with reshaping the heads to make them spherical - maybe melt them and file them to the same shape as the originals (mount them in a chuck and file them round while the chuck is spinning).
Just pull the nylon pins and they should pop out easily - I use my pillar fitting pliers to pull them out with as they grip just behind the widest part and don't bruise the heads - or use your teeth!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-10 12:52
Thanks again, Chris........ although I called the pins copper, they are actually quite tough. I'll try a flame on one to see if it melts easily. The heads are too big to enter the holes, so I think there is plenty of leeway for shaping. I may do that in the lathe, but if I filed them by hand, I could concentrate the metal removal on what would become the top of the pins (this part would be doing all the work, and would give me a larger bearing surface against the other key) I don't think it would make a noticeable difference to the position of the pinkie keys.
Will let you know the results if I go ahead....... no rush...... this is when I am glad to have spare instruments! At the current 2nd hand prices it would be cheaper to buy yet another just for spare parts........... H&P.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-01-10 13:34
Attachment: ClarLeverPin.jpg (8k)
>> The heads are too big to enter the holes, so I think there is plenty of
>> leeway for shaping. I may do that in the lathe, but if I filed them.....
If you are making (or modifying) them, I attached a photo of what I think is a better shape for those pins (excuse my poor diagraming skills). The upper part shows the pin from the side. On the left below it is the usual shape looking directly at it. On the right side is the better shape (looking from the same direction).
As long the pin is rounded in a way that will allow the key to move smoothly but without too much free play then it will work as sort of round from the side (the same as now). But because of the linkage, the hole part of it also moves slightly to the side, compared with the direct up motion of the lever.
I recently saw a clarinet where it was just boarderline... from the wrong side of the boarder! It is only necessary that there is no free play in the direction that the lever moves. The ends of the sides are not really relevant to this. However on this clarinet, when the lever was pressed all the way, the hole moved just enough to side so the round pin made it feel resistant. Shaping the pin correctly solved the problem.
Of course this assumes that the rest of the pin and the hole are not shaped completely wrong 
Post Edited (2009-01-11 05:01)
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-10 14:34
Hi, clarnibass, and thanks for the diagrams...... I think we are on the same wavelength on this one. I am guessing that there will be enough metal (diameterwise) to allow me to obtain a smooth upper working surface and keep a reasonable diameter acrosswise, though as you say that is less important. You are correct that I must leave the sides as smooth as poss to avoid "catching" and wear to the holes.
I had completely forgotten that an old Selmer of mine has these projections, and rattled a bit. This was simply cured by putting a felt washer over the pins to cushion the two key parts against each other. Worked fine.
I am so glad that I found these pins. I was amazed at the coincidence of sizes..... I don't know how easy it would be now to find them, though ships chandlers would be my first port of call (sorry about that). If it works and is as easy as I would expect, perhaps this would be a trick to pass on to anyone who does this kind of thing.
Thanks again, and my abject apologies to Mark, but it's all in a good cause (I hope)............. H&P.
Looking forward to seeing the progress on the metal clarinet. Have only seen one once, never handled one. In fact I so clearly remember entering a room when one was being played and expecting to see a genuine wooden one.
My first reaction (this is a long time back when I had first discovered clarinets) was "is this some kind of joke"
I now know better.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-11 00:52
Hi,
Sorry for the delay. The left hand pinky lever pins on my clarinet are metal. My daughters Buffet C12 has the nylon pins you speak of. I had to replace one as a careless person knocked it over.
I used string from my weedwacker to fix it. Just put it in a drill and sanded it down to the right size or if sanding is not for you, just heat it with a heat gun and "draw it out" to the diameter you need. (You can shape it with a little heat as well.) Put it in with a little CA, and trim /shape to fit.
It may even be stronger as weedwacker string is some tough stuff.
My project clarinet is at the reassembly stage. (finaly) See pic.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-26 00:40)
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-11 01:01
Chris P,
I forgot to tell you the pins engage into metal holes. I use some fish skin from an old pad folded and fit over the tip then inserted into the hole for cushioning. This is the way it used to be. I have this thing about quiet key work, a pet peeve if you will.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-01-11 02:33
Clarnibass, shaping the sides off those pins to make them a more oval shape is yet another use for the diamond or carborundum wheel in your new dental handpiece. Fine shaping and smoothing with the rubber wheels. :-)
Post Edited (2009-01-11 02:34)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-01-11 05:17
>> I had completely forgotten that an old Selmer of mine has these
>> projections, and rattled a bit. This was simply cured by putting
>> a felt washer over the pins to cushion the two key parts against
>> each other. Worked fine.
Another way to do this (the standard way) is to use bladder (like pad skin). If one layer is not enough, you can put several. You can glue several layers too (I sometimes do).
Re making the pins from metal: One repairer told me he makes them mostly cylinder (I think only rounded at the end) and then wrap teflon tube around them (thicker than usual silencer). This probably worksgood. I make them the correct size from metal and put silencer (usually bladder), but haven't tried the other method yet because for whatever reason they very rarely break for players here.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-11 05:44
I have found that when working with bladder pads, I cut the bladder off a 9.0mm pad, fold it in half twice. You wind up with a triangle. I then wet it and lay it centered over the hole. The water holds it folded and in place. Then just push the pin through, and your done.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-11 09:18
Or put a drop of oil on it. I often use the corners of small plastic bags for this.
Just noticed on a Leblanc Opus the pins are stainless steel inserts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-01-11 09:24
I use quartered pad bladders, but with a wee bit of white glue (Elmer's, PVA) instead of water in them. Once the glue has dried the pin "sock" retains its shape yet remains elastic. Finally bit of cork grease on it et voilà, very silent, very robust.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2009-01-11 09:25)
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-11 10:45
Mark...... I am so glad that my hi-jacking has been of use to you as well.
My thanks to all for advice........ Actually....JOB DONE last night. Very easy, and the pins worked perfectly. an exact fit in the holes, so Araldited in.
The most difficult part of the whole task was getting the screw-caps off the Araldite tubes! Must keep them well away from each other- I'm sure they send out fumes.
There was more metal to be removed than I expected to get the heads down to a size that would just enter the holes, so if I do the job on my other B12 (I think I will just for the peace of mind- and it was so quick) I think the heads could be cut down in the lathe and still give plenty of bearing surface.
Put a spot of grease on the heads, and everything is working fine. I burnished the contact areas, as I had used a jeweller's flat file to do the work.
Thanks again to all................. H&P.
Also took the opportunity to adjust two of the lower pads, and the instrument is now like a racehorse...... I can whisper over the break to a long B using the left hand pinkie key with no assistance from the right hand, and by my reckoning, if you can do that, you are home and dry.
Mark........... are the tone hole tubes collared for thickness? or are some rolled as on some saxes? Looking forward to seeing some real close-ups of details if your camera can cope.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-01-11 11:13
Silencer skins:
I folded a sheet of goldbeater skin in half, and glued it like that with contact glue, applied very thinly. I cut that into strips - enough for decades of clarinet repair. I think the contact glue laminate makes the stuff even tougher.
I apply contact glue to a pin and to the end of a strip.
Then cut a small rectangle off the end of the strip and apply it around the end of the pin.
Then lubricate the side of the rectangle with cork grease and push the pin into the hole in the key.
I have investigated many plastic film alternatives, with my 'puncture test' between two of my canine teeth. They all failed the test miserably except for one...
I use it when I want a somewhat thicker silencer. It is spinnaker cloth... incredibly tough, flexible enough (being woven) and still only 0.05 mm (0.002") thick. I got it from the rubbish bin of a sail-maker for Americas Cup yachts, just 5 km away. Great stuff!
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-12 01:42
Attachment: Buffet Together.JPG (174k)
I finally put it all together and have done some preliminary adjustments. It's back to work tomorrow so looks like I will finish it next weekend. Can't wait to hear it. I put some pics up and will try for some close ups when complete.
Hard to believe it ts the same horn I started with.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-26 00:41)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-12 08:50
That's a transformation and a half!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-12 09:44
I just noticed the vent for LH2 is set far from the key barrel (unlike Buffet Elites where it was really close), so the E in the lower register (xoo|ooo) should be a clear note compared to a lot of clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-01-13 09:34
Hi, Chris and others......... while on the subject of left hand pinkie Bs (well at least I was) I measured the leverage in the linking and noted that the mechanical advantage of the left pinkie key is approx 9/11ths of the right hand pinkie key. Approx, because it obviously depends where your RH pinkie lands on the spatula.
Is this common across all Boehm clarinets, or have any manufacturers made any efforts to balance the two keys,,,,,,,,,, I imagine this would involve too much re-jigging to be worth it.
I always use the unaided left pinkie to test the break................. H&P.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-25 00:09
Hi.
I finally finished the clarinet. It's a real player, everything you would expect from a high end Buffet, with added clarity.
One of the big pains working on any old instrument is the techs that worked on it before you. Some knew what they were doing and some didn't. Sometime I can't help wondering, "What were they thinking?"
Some more pics.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-25 12:52
For some reason I cannot post any more pics. Sorry.
Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2009-01-25 13:00)
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-01-25 13:13
Maybe you could send the pics to someone else and they could post them?
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