 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: blackbird
Date: 2008-12-09 18:30
Hello,
I have a Selmer Series 9 that needs some basic work like cleaning, oiling, new pad and corks. I'm in NYC and the repair shop I called said it would be $650 so I'm going to try to have a go at it myself.
Is there anywhere to find a comprehensive description of pad types, glues vs. shellacs, etc.?
Can someone recommend some products to use? Who is a good supplier?
Thanks for your help!
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Author: malanr
Date: 2008-12-09 18:49
eh-hemm...
musicmedic.com
I talked to these guys about my F.Barbier and they were great. Never once said that I should leave it to professionals.
blackbird wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a Selmer Series 9 that needs some basic work like
> cleaning, oiling, new pad and corks. I'm in NYC and the repair
> shop I called said it would be $650 so I'm going to try to have
> a go at it myself.
>
> Is there anywhere to find a comprehensive description of pad
> types, glues vs. shellacs, etc.?
>
> Can someone recommend some products to use? Who is a good
> supplier?
>
> Thanks for your help!
Just another muscian
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-12-09 19:10
Isn't there anywhere else to take it? That price seems EXTREMELY expensive, as my clarinet was completely overhauled, cleaned, everything, for $150.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-09 19:24
So what exactly did they do for $150?
Please itemise absolutely everything they did.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-12-09 19:51
I'm fairly close to New York and the New Jersey market, the going price for a complete overhaul is around that number $650.
They would replace all the pads, top joint with cork pads, all the corks (tenon and leveler), buff the keys (usually), and do a fair job at setting the action but they never go too overboard. There are a few places in New York that do a decent job but they are expensive, getting good service outside of that city is not that difficult but you need to make the effort and get recommendations form other musicians or a college professor. The cost of living in New York is unbelievable, New Jersey is not much better.
I believe there are talented repair people that contribute to this board as advertisers; I think that might be a very good place to start if you don't have any other avenues. Attempting major repairs on your primary clarinet without any experience could mean it will take a long time even with the proper pads and glue and no guarantee that it will work when you're done. If that's the way you go, please make sure you have a good back up clarinet to use for a while until you're done with your primary instrument.
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Author: blackbird
Date: 2008-12-09 19:57
Thanks for all the advice so far!
Can anyone tell me the difference between gore-tex pads, cork, double skin, single skin?
Thanks again!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-09 20:27
Gore-tex pads are like skin pads but have an outer layer of Gore-tex (which is like PTFE tape what plumbers use). They have the same stepped profile as skin (or double bladder) pads so the outer diameter usually corresponds to the outer diameter of the pad cup in which they will fit.
Cork pads are as the description says - made entirely from cork. These have to be ground flat and seated on absolutely perfect toneholes, and need to be seated perfectly as they don't compress. These fit inside the pad cup, so take the inside measurement when ordering.
Double skin pads are the standard skin pad in that they have two layers of skin ('goldbeater's skin which is cow intestine membrane - same as sausage skin) on a felt disc with a cardboard backing. The backing is usually smaller in diameter than the felt disc so the measurement is taken from the felt disc (which usually corresponds to the outer diameter of the pad cup).
Single skin pads don't exist as they'll be too fragile, though leather pads have a single layer of leather over a felt disc and card backing, and fit the inside diameter of the pad cup. Usually brown or white, or black as in Saxgourmet pads. Leather pads are by far the easiest pads to install, and will outlast skin pads due to the toughness and hard wearing properties of leather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-12-09 20:29
gore-tex pads are synthetic
cork pads are made of cork - many professionals request cork pads on closed keys
double skin have two layers of skin on them
single skin- have one layer
there are a variety of quality variances between the same type of pads sold by various sellers, et all .. basically .. the less $$ the cheaper quality
don't forget to add $$ to your budget for tools .. musicmedic sells them too
buy some repair books too
anyone can do a "repad" but keep in mind the term "quality" is completely variable dependent upon the experience of the person doing it.
You cannot buy experience .. you'll have to gain this through trial and error.
===
As mentioned my Chris P .. $150. what did they do for $150 ??
at one time I calculated out that on online guy that did overhauls at a low price had an absolute maximum time allotment of 1 hour to do all of his work per clarinet. I saw the quality because several of those freshly "overhauled" instruments were sent to me for a complete new overhaul.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: blackbird
Date: 2008-12-09 21:10
Wow! That's a lot of info on pads!
Other than musicmedic, where are some other places to buy pads and supplies?
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-12-09 23:37
This is an individual repair guy working out of his house, but he:
~Completely stripped and cleaned it (and it was more than the usual cleaning, because I got this clarinet at a secondhand store, and I don't think it had been looked at for decades)
~Replaced all the corks, and all the pads
~Replaced several springs and missing screws
~Adjusted the action
He didn't buff the keys, because I didn't want it done (the keys are nickel plated, from before the 1940s and they look very nice un-buffed)
This took a week and a half.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-12-10 00:18
doctors shouldn't operate on themselves.
lawyers should not represent themselves.
and clarinet players shouldn't overhaul their own horns unless you have a LOT of prior experience, parts, tools, etc.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: blackbird
Date: 2008-12-10 01:11
Thanks for all your help guys! I decided to mail the clarinet to a repair shop I've used for years in my hometown in Indiana. He has a really well respected shop and is going to do it for $200. NYC is insane.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-10 02:51
I can't imagine a really good overhaul costing much less than $650, especially in the NY market. A really good overhaul should take a minimum of ten hours, perhaps a lot more if it needs a lot of work. Ten hours would be $65 an hour, not a bank breaker for a real experienced tech that takes their time to do a great job.
Change the pads and seat them "perfect", highest quality of course. Adjust or replace every spring that needs replacing, secure every post. Fill in every hairline crack in every tone hole, check the bore for same. Change all corks on joints as well as under keys etc. If you want a great overhaul you need to go to an experience tech with a good tech. As in everything in life, you get what you pay for. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-12-10 23:22
Ed's post is correct. To do a really good job on an overhaul takes at least 10 hours. When I was doing a lot of overhauls, I was averaging 12 hours per clarinet. Some things you just cannot hurry.
The other thing to remember, is that half the clarinets that come in for an "overhaul" also have some kind of damage. The most common are bent keys, but you run into a lot of screwy things. Some repair guys do some of the damage repair without extra compensation, but remember, it's not really part of the overhaul.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class Clarinet Mouthpieces
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-12-11 00:01
I'd like to know more about black leather pads. Are they popular on clarinet or are they a sax thing?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-11 07:12
>> I can't imagine a really good overhaul costing much less than $650,
>> especially in the NY market. A really good overhaul should take a
>> minimum of ten hours, perhaps a lot more if it needs a lot of work.
>> Ten hours would be $65 an hour, not a bank breaker for a real
>> experienced tech that takes their time to do a great job.
It's impossible to generelize like this. It's VERY possible that between two excellent repairers, one is considerably faster than the other, by a lot even, so both would do an excellet job except one would take longer. The completely random number of "10 hours" (or any other number) is just that... random.
About the price, what if one repairer lives in a relatively expensive area, they rent another place for the repair shop, and they have three kids to take care of. Compare with another repairer, just as good, but doesn't have a family (i.e. kids), lives in a much less expensive area, and works from a small apartment where they also live. It's entirely possible, and would hardly be surprising, if the former charged (considerably) more than the latter. Regardless of time and quality of repairs.
>> Change the pads and seat them "perfect", highest quality of course.
>> Adjust or replace every spring that needs replacing, secure every
>> post. Fill in every hairline crack in every tone hole, check the bore
>> for same. Change all corks on joints as well as under keys etc.
Yes, all those things are things that possibly will be in an overhaul. What about a clarinet that doesn't need any cracks filled, all the tone holes are perfect, and the player doesn't want or need to have the instrument cleaned, oiled or polished. Obviously it will cost considerably less than a clarinet needing a lot of cleaning, with a lot of free play on keys, many chipped tone holes, loose posts, and several stuck screws. Prices will obviously be significantly different.
So generalizations are just impossible.
>> I'd like to know more about black leather pads. Are
>> they popular on clarinet or are they a sax thing?
What company and model of black leather pads...? That is releveant. The colour is just a colour, and other than being black they are the same as an identical model of pad that is a different colour of leather i.e. white and brown (tan) pads are identical except the brown ones are coloured.
I'm not familiar with a company that makes black leather pads for clarinets. Music Medic sell the black kangaroo leather pads for saxophones. The excellent pad company Music Center (one of the biggest pad makers in the world, if not the biggest) makes black saxophone leather pads, which are identical to th same model pad in "regular" (i.e. brown) leather.
I guess it's possible the colouring process does something to the leather other than colouring, but from comparing identical models of both white and brown leather pads I found no difference other than colour.
Post Edited (2008-12-11 09:34)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-12-11 09:55
Thanks Nitai, I'd never heard of black leather pads or white for that matter, I just assumed the leather ones were always brown.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-12-11 13:34
Many old saxophones came with white leather pads, and I believe there was a period when Leblanc offered them on their bass clarinets. Never heard of nor seen black ones myself, though.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-12-11 15:54
Had my Buffet completely overhauled in September by a well-known music company's repair shop in western NC. Took me an hour's drive each way (when gas was much more expensive) and the total cost was either $500 or $525. My husband would remember!
The repairman--an accomplished clarinetist himself--guaranteed me he'd have my horn playing BETTER than when it was new. He didn't disappoint! I've been very pleased with the results....um...when my cork grease tube isn't stuck in the bore, of course. :P
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-11 17:04
When leather pads are specified on clarinets, it's usually as follows:
German clarinets traditionally use very soft white leather pads (like bassoon pads). Boehms traditionally use brown leather pads (see older Peter Eatons and B&H 1010s - the latter had Gordon Beeson pads installed as standard, though they were stuck in with Evo-Stik!).
I use Saxgourmet pads (black kangaroo leather) on saxes as standard on full overhauls as they're firm and the leather is tough.
I use either white or brown leather pads on the largest pad cups on clarinets (depending what size pads I have - if I haven't got any white leather pads large enough I'll use brown ones) or a mixture of brown leather and cork pads on keys that suffer with condensation. I use white leather pads on the large pad cups on oboes and cors (or cork throughout).
But pads aside, we need to get to grips with the correct terminology when it comes to having work done on clarinets. Too many people confuse 'service' with 'overhaul' and the two are completely different. Some people say 'I need my clarinet overhauled' when it only needs a service - likewise, some say 'I've just had my clarinet overhauled' when it's only been in for a service.
I use the following terms (and a brief description of the work done):
Checkover - while the keys are mostly in situ, this is checking the instrument and making minor adjustments to seat pads or regulate, adjust spring tensions and replace silencing material where needed.
Service - completely dismantle the clarinet, remove all springs and screws, remove the speaker tube, oi the bore and seal end grain in sockets and ends of tenons, tidy up blemishes in toneholes, clean all toneholes and polish the body, pillars and keys, polish all screws, replace any faulty springs, replace key corks, replace any worn or damaged pads, assemble, oil and regulate.
Overhaul - complete stripdown, remove all corks and pads, remove all springs and screws, replace all tenon corks, key corks and pads, remove speaker tube and thumb bush, clean and polish all parts, replace faulty springs, polish and burnish all screws (and recut the slots if needed), clean all toneholes, oil the bore and seal end grain in all sockets and ends of tenons, seal tenon caps, fill all blemishes in toneholes, assemble, oil and regulate.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-12-11 21:36
There are many things not even in your "overhaul", that I would include, if they were needed for good function or reliability, in routine attention, no matter what it is called.
Typically once they are done they never need doing again. Hence, they could be put in the category of inadequacies of manufacture.
If the instrument has many of them, I might do the most important ones first, and do others at subsequent 'visits'
So new instruments get into a progressively more reliable state. Which I guess is one reason why I do not see my customers often enough to get rich.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-11 21:40
"There are many things not even in your "overhaul", that I would include, if they were needed for good function or reliability, in routine attention, no matter what it is called."
Hence the reason why I gave a "brief description" - if I was to itemise absolutely everything that can be done then I'd probably be here all night typing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-12-11 23:43
Chris,
You were more than accurate and complete in your brief description of an overhaul and the other work available at a good center. It was concise and well done, I hope it will help cut the confusion with so many folks thinking they got their clarinet overhauled when it simply got oiled and one cork replaced.
However, aside from that, the sax guy sitting next to me used black kangaroo pads on a recent overhaul and set things up just right (I thought) but the player has a VERY heavy touch. In about a month all of the pads had a fairly deep well and then of course they all leak a little.
We chatted about how to better set up a sax for a guy that has such a hard grip on his keys even with using great pads like the Kangaroo. I told him I would probably set it up the same way, a good touch not a heavy one and then have him come back in a month to reset the pads and get rid of the leaks. Any suggestions?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-12-11 23:54
sbrodt54 wrote:
> We chatted about how to better set up a sax for a guy that has
> such a hard grip on his keys even with using great pads like
> the Kangaroo. I told him I would probably set it up the same
> way, a good touch not a heavy one and then have him come back
> in a month to reset the pads and get rid of the leaks. Any
> suggestions?
A Gorilla Grip demands Brontosaurus Foreskin pads....
I think said guy would profit from a de-escalation crash course (unlearn the habit of gripping just because some tech 20 years ago did a mediocre job), which would save him a lot of money and carpal tunnel toll in the future.
I frankly admit that I'm a victim of the same habit...sometimes. Amazing what an eye-opener music can be...
--
Ben
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-12-12 12:21
tictactux wrote:
>
> I think said guy would profit from a de-escalation crash course
> (unlearn the habit of gripping just because some tech 20 years
> ago did a mediocre job), which would save him a lot of money
> and carpal tunnel toll in the future.
>
> I frankly admit that I'm a victim of the same
> habit...sometimes.
Tempting though it is to think that one can gain by using the fingers very firmly, I think we all need to learn to treat our instruments as if we love them (which we, presumably, do) and if we have to push too hard, there is probably some kind of adjustment needed.
Vanassa.
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-12-15 23:00
$650 for a overhaul!? The only thing I can think of is the guy's hitting the bore oil bottle himself instead of using it on the clarinets.
Unless he's a single man operation, do you really think he's going to be doing all the work? Of course not. The disassembly, pad removal and cleanup is going to be done by his assistant or second hand man who he's paying $10 - $12 a hour.. but charging you $65.
It very well may be that he's also having his employees do other things to the instrument as well.. and still charging you that same $65 per hour. He may have four or five employee hours on the instrument at a cost to him of less than a hundred in wages, but charge you over $300 at that point.
Of course you could always tell him that you've picked up a disassembled instrument and wondered what the cost of a repad/overhaul was. Just a thought.
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-15 23:35
"The disassembly, pad removal and cleanup is going to be done by his assistant or second hand man"
Is that a fact?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-16 00:31
Shi, that's may be true in some cases but not all. My repairman works by himself, he has no "helpers". He does all the work by himself. I've often sat with him for several hours while he's worked on my clarinets. I've never seen another tech in his shop. As a matter of fact, there's no place for another tech to work, it's a one man shop. My guy charges $72.50 an hour, less than I charge for a lesson, and he does great work, worth every cent. As a matter of fact, that's about the same as my auto mechanic charges. Why is it that a person is willing to pay that to fix their car, if it's a nice car of course, but complains about paying that to get their clarinet fixed. I need my car to get to work to play my clarinet but I want may clarinet to play as perfect as possible when I get there, and it doesn't need to have the oil changed every 3000 notes. ESP
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-16 05:58
Shi-Ku Chishiki, sorry but you are way off here....
>> Unless he's a single man operation, do you really think
>> he's going to be doing all the work? Of course not.
A lot of repairers ARE a single man (or woman) operation. Some are more of a partnership or family, and of course some are shops with assistants.
>> The disassembly, pad removal and cleanup is going to
>> be done by his assistant or second hand man who he's
>> paying $10 - $12 a hour.. but charging you $65.
So... if they didn't have an assistant they would spend more time on it, but don't have any actual costs. Having an assistant has the extra costs of paying them, but what about the extra space to have an assistant, the extra work table, more tools (many times the same), etc. Having an assistant is a lot more likely to raise the price.
>> He may have four or five employee hours on the instrument
>> at a cost to him of less than a hundred in wages, but charge
>> you over $300 at that point.
Going by that philosophy, a repairer who works alone doesn't have any of those costs so they shouldn't charge you anything at all...? I know I'd have to raise my prices if I had an assistant.
>> Of course you could always tell him that you've picked
>> up a disassembled instrument and wondered what the
>> cost of a repad/overhaul was.
They might have to assemble the keys back to tell you the cost because many of the things are impossible to check with the keys off (just one example is free play in keys, an important factor). So if anything, it will cost more for the extra assembling. Or maybe just assume it neededs the work, give a higher range of prices, and in the end it might cost less by coincidence (or not).
Nitai
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-16 07:22
I perfer to work on any instrument from start to finish myself - I know I can trust myself to do what I want and at least I know what I have done and what's to be done next and that all the responsibility is down to me.
There may be successful repairers who work on an assembly line system, but I think it's best that any instrument gets the undivided attention from the one repairer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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