 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: classicalguss
Date: 2008-10-20 15:20
Hello, all. The Allstate solo for high school in NJ is the Poulenc Sonata. I have noticed that the most recent edition that my students have brought here (Chester---like the old one I have) differs in that there a a few notes in the 1st movement that I think are incorrect. I've always played the older edition and all the recordings that I have heard have the same notes as I do. Does anyone have any info here? I've "corrected" the parts for my students, but may be mistaken. The "new" notes certainly sound wrong to me.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Best Wishes,
Roy
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-10-20 15:40
This has been discussed here and on the klarinet mailing list numerous times and in great detail by Tony Pay and others, but here is some quick cursory background info:
You have discovered (perhaps surprisingly) that that there is the "older" (1963) Chester edition and the newer versions (1973 and subsequent reprints with changes).
The major differences are a matter of 4 notes - 3 in the 1st movement, and one in the final movement.
Very briefly, from the late Jerry Pierce, his story about the "differences" goes like this:
A number of years ago, Georgina Dobree of London was researching the Poulenc and came across the various drafts that he had made for the work. Anyway, she decided that some of the notes were "wrong" and convinced Chester to reprint the work with the changes.
Chester followed through with what Georgina claimed were the final wishes in the final drafts of Poulenc. The changes are really quite minor (a few different notes in the first and third movements), but Chester probably saw an opportunity to gain a few more sales in a later (different) edition.
It comes down to which one sounds "right" to you. Often, it is the one you learn first. Many of my colleagues (and myself) learned the 1963 version, so to me it sounds "correct". In a number of the newer recordings, the performers use the newer version.
As both versions correspond to ideas previously written by Poulenc, and since he isn't around to consult, both are well within the scope of the original artist.
Whichever edition you play, it really doesn't matter. As the late Jerry Pierce once wrote in a letter to me: "It's all Poulenc - at one time or another"...GBK
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-10-20 22:44
GBK wrote:
>> Very briefly, from the late Jerry Pierce, his story about the "differences" goes like this:
>> A number of years ago, Georgina Dobree of London was researching the Poulenc and came across the various drafts that he had made for the work. Anyway, she decided that some of the notes were "wrong" and convinced Chester to reprint the work with the changes.
>> Chester followed through with what Georgina claimed were the final wishes in the final drafts of Poulenc. The changes are really quite minor (a few different notes in the first and third movements), but Chester probably saw an opportunity to gain a few more sales in a later (different) edition.>>
This story, although vouched for in a letter to GBK from Jerry Pierce, is in fact incorrect. In a lengthy and at times confused thread on the Klarinet list, it was established that the sonata was originally published in the form that I have posted here as an attachment (to which Mark Charette provided a link in the second post in the thread you are currently reading). Then the French objected, and Chester changed their minds; then the rest of the world objected, and they changed their minds AGAIN; then Georgina and Thea King were called in by Chester to adjudicate the matter, which they did; but that still wasn't enough for the French. I didn't know that Chester had changed their minds YET AGAIN after that adjudication, but apparently they did.
Relevant and hopefully not too confusing posts in that thread are:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2008/08/000102.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2008/08/000104.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2008/09/000015.txt
The abbreviation 'non-F' in these posts stands for 'non-French': ie, the version originally published by Chester, to which the French objected. You can see me being convinced that Chester actually had changed their minds again in the second post. (It seems hardly believable.)
Of course I agree that the differences are trivial, and that no great harm is done to the piece by playing the version that Poulenc originally wrote before revising it for publication.
However, since a few French players, outstandingly Philippe Cuper, still persist in going around the world speaking of the 'disgrace' that the revised version (WRONG according to him) should be still performed, and hacking away at students' copies, it is important that the truth of the matter be clearly stated.
So it is not important for the Poulenc sonata, but important for the principle of accurate scholarship. And actually the truth of the matter is instantly apparent to anyone viewing my attachments in Mark Charette's link.
I would like to thank GBK for reopening the thread in order to allow me to make this post.
Tony
Post Edited (2008-10-20 22:56)
Post Edited (2008-10-21 07:58)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-21 00:46
Not to confuse matters, but there is actually one more version, the 2006 edition by Millan Sachania, which is the one I own--not very different from the 2000 edition, by its own admission (the French/non-French issue having been settled in the 2000 edition, I believe). But I figured I ought to mention it for completeness sake, since it clearly says "2006 edition" on the cover. Of the 2006 Edition Sachania writes:
"In preparing the 2006 edition, I have taken the opportunity to enhance the graphic presentation of the score, clarify some slurs and ties, and put right a couple of minor misprints. There are no major departures, however, from the 2000 edition."
If someone's playing this piece for NJ all-state band, it's probably best to inquire (or have the band director inquire) about precisely which edition they expect you to use. I'm pretty sure (after now having taken a glance at the NJMEA website) that your students need to follow the 2006 edition, since NJMEA's website says only the "published editions" are acceptable (and 2006 is presumably the only edition still in print). Also, my 2006 edition says it's Order No. CH70972, and the NJMEA website lists the approved version as "Chester Publications SHCH70972." (The extra "SH" at the beginning of the number is an error, I think.) I think the 2000 edition is Publication No. CH61763, based on this cached page from Google. (Compare with the publication number for the current edition here.) Maybe someone else who owns the 2000 edition can confirm that the publication numbers are different.
Anyway, I'd make sure I had this straight with the NJMEA people ASAP before your students get too far into contest preparation. I'd just hate for some non-clarinet-playing judge (or even a less-informed clarinet-playing judge) to dock your students points for missed notes or an incorrect slur simply because they didn't play the approved edition. You can't assume the judges will have read this board (or that they otherwise know about this problem with multiple editions).
Post Edited (2008-10-21 00:47)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2008-10-21 00:48
Is there a difference between the round fermatas and the square fermatas in Poulenc?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-21 01:02
Elmo, you must have an older edition of the Poulenc Sonata than I have, because the 2006 edition doesn't have any square fermatas.
However, the third bar of the second movement (which is where I'll bet you are seeing a square fermata) has two different length fermatas. The first one is marked "court" (meaning "short" in French) and the second one is marked "long."
It wouldn't surprise me if it's the second of these fermatas in your part that is square, because, if I remember correctly, a square fermata means "long fermata." (Although it wouldn't surprise me if I have this reversed. IMHO, square and triangle fermatas are obsolete notation and need to disappear...)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2008-10-21 23:36
I wasn't asking about the Cl. sonata in particular. We just played the piano concerto (Concerto champetre) and the soloist made no distinction. Also, in the Cl. and Bsn. sonata there are square fermatas that are marked "tres court". The Wikipedia entry on fermatas says that there is a difference but doesn't say what the difference is.
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