 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-10-11 21:26
I have been practicing a little more than usual this past week and my bottom lip is really sore. I practiced this morning and put some foam between my teeth and lip but have decided to give it a break the rest of today and tomorrow but my lip is really raw and hurting. anything i can do to help it heal?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-11 21:53
I always use anbesol when I finish playing, I just dab a little on the inside of my lip. Make sure you always use a "lip saver" on your lower teeth when you play. There have been some posts about lip savers so check them out. I always use white floral tape but people use other materials too. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: jeeves
Date: 2008-10-12 01:00
Isn't there something you can order from WWBW called "Chopsavers". I'm not sure if this is just for brass or if it works. Has anyone else here used it?
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-10-12 02:36
Sip on ice water or suck on an ice cube for a little while - that can help get the inflamation down.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-10-12 02:42
Chopsavers is a lip balm and thus I wouldn't expect it to do much for the area where the teeth come into contact with the inside the mouth. Haven't tried it myself, though...
Taking a break is always good when in pain. Try to notice just before the actual pain starts and attempt to stop playing before any pain happens. This will increase stamina in the long run, IMO.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-10-12 04:40
let it rest for now. I've never tried Ed P.'s method, but it might be worth a try. I use EZO wax denture strips cut into small squares. I heat them under hot water then form them to my lower teeth. They work wonders...at least for me they do.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-10-12 11:25
Thank you everyone. I did the ice thing. its still a little sore this morning. I should had stopped playing/practicing but I was really motivated last week to practice hard and I wanted to keep going even tho my lip was sore. I paid for it in the end I guess.
I did order a lip saver but ...while I will be able to continue practing without discomfort, i think it encourages biting. at least it doesnt discourage it. in fact, the ad says "bite all you want" which i think is a bad thing.
Iceland clarinet.... you are very right. I am working on it. Tried to do tom ridenours double lip method but had a hard time with it. I'm going to ask my teacher at my next lesson to help me.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-10-12 12:29
There are things you can still do when your lip hurts. Practice with fingers only, listen to recordings, think about the music, write in breath marks, analyze the phrasing, sing your part....on and on!
Break your practicing up into smaller sections. Just before pain hits, stop and go do something else for 10 minutes. Come back and repeat! 
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-12 12:50
For cuts in the mouth, use Listerine (sp?)- that is what it's made for.
And yes, biting is the problem.
You should be able to practice daily for 3 hours (at least) without injuring yourself in any mannar.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-10-12 16:58
Janlynn are you maybe playing on unbalanced reeds ? You are more likely to bite if you play on a unbalanced reed no matter if it's hard or soft in resistance. I've never tried to play with material over my bottom reed because I never had to and I've always been able to play for 6 hours or more a day for a week with no trouble at all and none of my 5 teachers I've had have used materials over the bottom lip as well.
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Author: NHClarinetLady23
Date: 2008-10-12 18:40
my teacher recommended using a small rectangle of soft shammy cloth. just remember to wash it a couple times before you use it to get all of the chemicals out.
to use it just cut it to fit over your bottom teeth, soak it in your reed water for a bit and slip it on. i don't think its good to use all the time because the pain is, as has already been mentioned, a sign that you are biting but we all have things we are working on.
hope that helps! :-)
also, remember to change it periodically... ;-)
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-10-13 19:38
Like Iceland Clarinet said...the best solution is to stop biting. Continuing to play will not ease the pain over time...stamina is only improved in the muscles around the lips, and time will not make biting hurt less.
Play double lip. A lot. I'm a single lip player, but up until about midway through my senior year of highschool, I had huge problems with biting so I played double lip a lot. Not only does it prevent you from biting, it also really helps you strengthen the muscles around your lips. It's wicked hard to play double lip at first (if you're coming from biting on single lip), but over time it can really help if you play double for fifteen or twenty minutes a day (more if you can). I still play double lip from time to time when I'm having problems with biting or I want to improve my lip strength.
Actually...I'm going to go practise some double lip playing right now.
Happy practising!
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Author: Sheryl Smith
Date: 2008-10-14 04:36
Oh, I found the YouTube video about double lip playing. I remember having worn small tooth marks in my Soprano clarinet MP by the time I graduated high school. Some students had deep grooves in their MP's. The first chair player who carried her clarinet with her on road trips rather than throwing it in the instrument truck (LOL) never had a mark on her mouthpiece. Man, she could play!
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-10-14 13:19
spoke to my teacher. she said now that my hand position is underway, its time to start working on my embouchure. I know Im biting too much. Fixing years of bad embouchure is going to take a lot of patience but it will be good in the long run, not only for saving me from a sore lip but probably better sound too (hopefully).
I have tried to play with a more correct embouchure but as soon as I lose control i go back to the old way and start biting. :( but that was before I had a teacher to help me.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-10-14 18:25
Remember, when you're re-working your embechoure, you need to work very hard and BE PATIENT. I started "trying to play with a more correct embechoure" my sophomore year of highschool, and it's only just starting to get to mildly acceptable (I'm a freshman in college now). Again...double-lip playing can really help you not bite and with upper lip strengthening (I play between four and eight hours a day, usually without much problem, and I still can only play double lip between twenty and thirty minutes before I don't have the strenth to do it anymore). Forming a correct embechoure takes years of practice and small muscle development. Remember to be patient and take pride in even the smallest advancements in your playing. (otherwise, you'd probably go insane...haha )
Happy practising!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-15 03:28
I know many pros that use "lip savers". That doesn't mean they are playing wrong, it means their teeth are sharp and they play a lot. What ever you do, use a lip saver. Try what I recommended above, or something else, but use something, it's not smart to cut your lip, I know, I did it many times as a student and bleed as I played until I got smart and began using something. Even with a proper embouchure many players simply cut their bottom lip. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-10-15 12:33
Ed Palanker I don't know who these pros are that you are referring to but I sure know over 10 Icelandic pros and none of them use material over their bottom lip. I think that one of the reasons for biting(with of course unbalanced reed being a huge part) is too much bottom lip over the teeth. The kind of embouchure that I've been taught is lover lip all the way were the facing stops and top teeth near the edge of the mouthpiece along with great support from the diaphragm. With this embouchure I can play for many hours without getting tired. And the main reason is because there is so little bottom lip over my teeth
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-15 13:52
Well Iceland, I'm not going to name names other then to say that I use a lip saver and our principal clarinetist in the BSO uses a lip saver. I have a feeling that we probably know how to balance our reeds. You know, some people are simply built differently than others. Is it possible that some of us actually have different size or thickness of lips? Is it also possible that some of us actually play better, with a better sound and control for us, using more lip than you do? I'm a fairly successful player, I use plenty of diaphragm support, I play bass clarinet too you know, and I balance my reeds. You may have been taught to play with little lip over the teeth; I suppose that must be the only correct way to play. My advise is still to use a lip saver if you're teeth are sharp and you cut into your lip, period. We're all not built the same as you, nor do we or should we all play the same way, because we all can't. I get the result I want playing the way I do so I’d rather use a lip saver and be happy with the result than to change to play your way and not be happy with the final result. ESP
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-10-15 14:41
Well I my point was not that you should change your embouchure. My point was that "I" have bitten in the past and now I don't and I just told you what I changed. I have hard time understanding why someone should need to use material over their bottom teeth as I have not meet any player here in Iceland at least that use it, well that's not exactly right I have met few Icelandic clarinet students that have used material over their bottom lip but their embouchure was total mess. You should tell me why someone with correct embouchure has to use material over their bottom teeth because I've not met any professional clarinetist who use material over their bottom teeth.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-10-15 14:56
Double-lip practice to prevent biting, preventing the problem.... and warm salt water rinse to heal once the lip is cut, especially at night after brushing the teeth and before sleeping. It's pretty simple really.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-15 14:58
"I've not met any professional clarinetist who use material over their bottom teeth."
You really should travel more. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Not to be insulting, but there are some places where it is not only accepted, but the NORM to use something covering the teeth. Here in Japan, I have NOT met a professional that does not use something covering the teeth. I know a couple students that don't use anything, but that is very unusual.
Personally, I don't use anything now, but I have in the past and sometimes I try it out and go back and forth. It is not only about "biting", but about technique and the sound you are aiming for. For my playing, there are advantages and disadvantages to both ways. Without a tooth cover, some things are easier- with a tooth cover, other things are easier.
Post Edited (2008-10-15 15:17)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-16 02:45
Island said, “you should tell me why someone with correct embouchure has to use material over their bottom teeth”. Not only have I told you that I, and the principal clarinetist in the BSO, use something on our bottom lip so at least you now know that there are at least two pros that use something, I can’t understand why you don’t understand that we are all different. My bottom teeth are sharp, what don’t you understand about that? I don’t like to play with your type of embouchure, what don’t you understand about that? Come on Island, what do you care if we use something or not. If a player can get the result they want using a lip saver, what does it matter to you? If a player uses something that works for them why do you have a problem with that just because you don’t know anyone that uses it? I really don’t understand it. ESP
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-10-16 05:16
Well if it makes you sound beautifully then it's fine but I have not heard your playing so I don't know that.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-10-16 13:09
got another question......
what if I like using a lip-saver and i can play better with it, but my teacher doesnt believe in them? or atleast does not encourage the use?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-16 14:53
Janlynn, that's between you and your teacher.
Iceland, tone is in the ears of the beholder. I think my tone is beautiful, you may or may not, that’s beside the point. I'm getting what I want, if you're getting what you want without a lip saver I'm not about to tell you or anyone else you should use one so what I'm saying is that you should not be telling others that they shouldn't, that all I'm saying. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some people have sharper teeth than others, or perhaps a strong natural bite, stronger chin muscles and like me, I prefer to have my teeth on my lip at a different place than you do because I like it, it gives me the result I want. That's what everyone should be looking for, the best final result. If that takes a lip saver so be it. There really shouldn't be any disagreement on this. By the way, if you want you can listen to a live recording of me playing the 1st mov't of the Mozart Quintet ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu.457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-16 17:20
Everybody's different. I play single lip. I put a lot of bottom lip in my mouth (maybe even more than Ed--who knows?), keep my bottom lip taut and the corners of my mouth "out," but I don't use a lip saver or a mouthpiece patch--works for me. When I took lessons, my teacher usually used both, though, and as far as I know she still does--works for her (she used to play with the Houston Symphony, by the way).
I'm sure there are folks out there who'd think I've got it all wrong in the embouchure department, but I've been playing for 23 years now and have yet to hear anything but positive comments about my tone quality! Isn't that what counts?
Post Edited (2008-10-16 21:17)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-10-16 17:44
Iceland...please do yourself a favor and research Ed Palanker via Google. I get the feeling you are unaware of the multitude of professionals here in the US and the fact that even if two different clarinetists are modeling the same "sound" that they may find two different ways to get there. Please keep an open mind.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-16 18:42
Thank you Katrina, good reply.
Iceland asked me what I’m looking for with this type of embouchure. If you see me play it looks just like any good embouchure, it doesn’t look different, I simply take a little more lip in my mouth than you described you do that’s all. Because I have sharp lower teeth, and probably a strong jaw bite, I work out every morning to keep in shape, I probably use more pressure than you as many others may do as well. That is why some people use a lip saver. I really think you’re making more of this than it’s worth. The only reason I keep answering you is because I want you, and everyone else, to have an opened mind. We have a saying in the USA; there is more than one way to skin a cat. That philosophy carries over to all aspects of life, including playing our beloved clarinet.
To answer your question, I don’t really remember when or how I began placing with my teeth where I do, I’ve been playing this way a long time now. I might have always played this way or one of my teachers might have suggested it, I really can’t remember. More then likely I experimented when I was a student, Leon Russianoff always encouraged his students to find what works best for the individual. But to tell you the truth, I just don’t recall. You can read my bio on my Peabody web page and see all the teachers I studies with, not a single one of them ever tried to change me that I can remember other than Earl Bates, nine weeks during one summer. He was the principal in St. Louis then and he wanted me to play with the reed flat against my chin so the clarinet was almost flat to my body. I didn’t like that, nor did my home teacher at the time, Eric Simon. But even Bates did not say anything about my lip placement that I can remember. That was a long time ago and before Russianoff. I hope this helps you understand that we don’t all have to play the same way to sound good or wanting to or having to use a lip saver, what this original post was about in the first place. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: indiana
Date: 2008-11-05 03:28
I usually lurk and learn from reading the postings, but I must speak up in defense of Iceland.
I am both a clarinet and saxophone player and spent many years playing professionally. When I was in school, I aspired to be a fine classical clarinetist. (I got A's for effort.)
After playing lots of commercial and jazz gigs, which are both loud and endless, I have come to understand why so many jazz players roll out their little lower lip. They are rolling in much less lip in order to produce a harder tone and to gain endurance.
For a long time I used a Joe Allard (rolled out fat lower lip) embouchure on saxophone and a classic rolled in embouchure on clarinet. But now I am trying to use the same embouchure on both. I fought the idea for many years myself but started experimenting after watching many jazz videos on youtube.
BTW, I can get a beautiful classical saxophone sound using the Allard embouchure. My hope is that I can get a great orchestral clarinet tone with this embouchure and get some relief for my sore lower lip!
Let me say this for all those who find this a weird idea. If you don't play with Allard / Jazz chops, you may find it very hard to learn. I studied saxophone with many Larry Teal students including Donald Sinta. The transition to a different embouchure was not easy!
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-11-05 21:33
Could someone explain to an ignorant student exactly what is meant by double lip?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-05 21:59
Simply put, you play with the upper lip touching the mouthpiece instead of your upper teeth. Single lip players (probably most of us, me included) put their top teeth on the mouthpiece.
See this YouTube video for details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWP22w28Jak
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