 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-09-29 17:03
Tom Ridenour has posted 3 videos on Youtube about how to play double lip. I'd be interested to learn what some of you guys think of them. I've always played double lip and think it's the way. Harold Wright used it so I suppose we're in good company. If you have time you might have a look:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NWP22w28Jak
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-09-29 17:54
One of his better videos. Thanks for the post, I am going to do some experimenting today with this!
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-09-29 21:37
Well- I guess Daisy HAS to play double lip because of her cleft upper lip?! (Besides which, if she doesn't play double lip she won't be getting any left-overs)
Perhaps one thing that Tom forgets to mention is that the vast majority of professional players DON'T use double lip?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-29 23:08
Hello Liquorice,
I thought that it was clear that he alluded to the fact that most clarinetists play single lip. I have Tom's Educator's guide to the clarinet and I have read this area pretty thoroughly, so perhaps I'm just projecting what I remember?
I did use his book to successfully change to double lip. The change was worth it, but definitely has taken time that many others would not have to devote to such a fundamental switch. Perhaps others could switch more quickly?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2008-09-30 00:58
Thanks for posting that! I've been looking for resources to help me improve my embouchure (and yes, using the Search function here!), and so I'll add these to my Clarinet Techniques favorites folder.
I recently took up the clarinet again after about 15 years and found myself playing double lip. I guess I learned it that way. I tried single lip for a while, since that's how my teacher plays, but it didn't feel natural and promoted my bad biting habit. Also, I don't like the vibrations on my teeth, even with a pad.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-09-30 04:01
Hey there are 2 things teeth should never touch and a clarinet mouthpiece is one of them! Tom
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-30 07:17
... and the chinrest makes the violin sound horrid, too! Shame so many folks are doing it "wrong".
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-30 10:42
Just saw the clips. Very clear and well made!
I like that he made it as a path for better single lip technique and not just a guide to conversion.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-30 11:49
When I began clarinet many years ago double lip was what I was taught. Since my teacher was a trombone player I guess he thought it made sense. I recall a lot of lip pain for awhile which eventually went away. That was 69 years ago and I never even knew some players put their teeth on the mp until several years ago. I tried it and it was like finger nails on glass. When the mp was placed reed side up long ago double lip was standard. Why "they" turned it around in the first place I don't know but I'll bet double lip was still used for a long time. But....the real reason double lip is better...... is that it makes you a better kisser.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-09-30 13:19
Double lip or single lip is not the issue here. The issue is how to form a proper embouchure so that one gets control and flexibility over the entire range of the instrument.
I am a single lip player, but I have to admit that playing double lip once in a while is a good way of reminding myself not to bite. Although at this point I am too lazy to push it far enough to see if making a switch will be completely beneficial. Since seeing the video, I have tried doing some of my warm up scales with a double lip and it's been good to me, except on high notes, I start to lose the tone at high F (5th partial).
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2008-09-30 16:50
I have to add that I viewed those videos last night and immediately heard an improvement in my sound. But it's obvious that I need to build a lot more strength in my lips to really make it work.
Thanks again for the post!
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-10-01 13:32
The videos are terrific, if a little wordy, and Tom covers most of the problems that learning double lip entails as well as the advantages it offers. He mentions the importance of playing on balanced and (he doesn't say it but may have felt it was implied) responsive reeds. Playing on reeds that are poorly balanced or just plain too stiff can lead to biting even with double lip. You just have double the pain. In fact, even playing on reeds that are too weak can cause the same result, as the player applies too much pressure trying to reign in the wildness and flat pitch that thin/weak reeds can cause.
Karl
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-01 13:41
Did anyone else notice the very surprising mouthpiece patches on Tom's mouthpiece? Do these serve a purpose for double lip players?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-01 13:55
>> But....the real reason double lip is better......
>> is that it makes you a better kisser.
That's what we make you think.... 
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-01 14:54
skygardener wrote:
<<Did anyone else notice the very surprising mouthpiece patches on Tom's mouthpiece? Do these serve a purpose for double lip players?>>
I noticed that, too. I wonder if sometimes he plays single lip, too, just like there are some self-described single lip players who alternate. Perhaps he has some students who are single lip players, so he might need to switch to single lip when demonstrating certain things to them.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-10-01 15:42
Helpful videos. I find that these concepts are excellent for applying to single lip. It will likely improve the single lip embouchure for most people.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-10-01 17:12
I'm one of those who uses both single and double. I don't know why Tom has a rubber patch on his mouthpiece, but I find it gives me better traction on the mouthpiece's beak even when I'm playing double lip. Of course, double lip is one way to avoid the fingernail-on-blackboard vibrations in my top teeth when I need to play on a student's mouthpiece who doesn't use a patch.
Karl
Author: skygardener (---.google.com - ISP in Mountain View, CA United States)
Date: 2008-10-01 13:41
Did anyone else notice the very surprising mouthpiece patches on Tom's mouthpiece? Do these serve a purpose for double lip players?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-10-01 23:07
I have a response: the fact that I watched them has caused what I think is a bit of a breakthrough in my own playing:-)
It's nothing to do with 'double lip', though. (And actually, the videos aren't much to do with double lip either, though they say they are.)
The crucial point about embouchure is that the lower lip be not simply a piece of inert meat covering the lower teeth. It has to be a flexible muscle -- "not just a SHIM", as Tom Ridenour puts it in the video. That's because it has to be able to exert a variable (in real time) pressure over an area of the reed that is variable (in real time) both in position and extent.
How much the lip muscle is supported or not by the lower teeth is essentially immaterial -- if it is truly flexible. Double lip embouchure may help to ensure that flexibility; but as has been rehearsed here many times, and as Tom Ridenour says himself, it is not ESSENTIAL.
But, what I've always done just before an attack is to choose the POSITION OF THE LOWER LIP first, and then vary the jaw aperture to be appropriate to the musical circumstance.
Whereas, Tom Ridenour advocates choosing the APERTURE first, and then moving the mouthpiece in until it is 'snug'.
It would seem that how you get to the same 'address' should have no effect on the end result.
But experimenting, I found that it does; for the following reason.
Mostly, I 'support' when I begin a note or a phrase. That means that I am already blowing, and resisting the blowing with the diaphragm, as I approach the beginning of the note. Then the note begins when I relax the diaphragm -- and, as I've explained many times, that is not a conscious experience: the note just begins when I imagine it to begin.
I have also explained that sometimes that is a strange experience for me; and I do better to breathe in against abdominal resistance -- like yawning -- and then have the note start 'at the top of the yawn'. It gives a real experience connected with the beginning of the note.
But now I have a better solution, that Tom Ridenour's technique provides. That is: to set the jaw aperture and the lip flexion that corresponds to the musical effect I want, and then have the beginning of the note coincide with the 'snug' moment as I very slightly move the mouthpiece in.
I THINK I find (I only tried it today, practising two pieces, one on a period instrument and one on my modern one) that that is a better way of calibrating the variables. It furnishes a GESTURE to begin the note; and a gesture that has a more natural point of arrival than the 'yawn' technique.
Now, some people may want to say that there is only one jaw aperture that is appropriate. But they should notice that Tom Ridenour carefully says that that aperture is determined by 'the desired sound'.
If you think that there is ONLY ONE DESIRABLE SOUND, then for you there is no 'calibration of jaw aperture' -- you just learn the one 'for you', and 'your' sound.
Others of us think differently.
Tony
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-10-02 12:02
I get the impression that some viewers are of the opinion that usng one...or two...mp patches when playng double lip is unusual. Mp patches are not just for protection.
Thanks again Tony for your insights.
Bob Draznik
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-02 16:15
Tony wrote:
<<But now I have a better solution, that Tom Ridenour's technique provides. That is: to set the jaw aperture and the lip flexion that corresponds to the musical effect I want, and then have the beginning of the note coincide with the 'snug' moment as I very slightly move the mouthpiece in.>>
That's an interesting idea--I'm going to have to try that myself. I am assuming that you usually play single lip like me. One question, though: When you tried this technique of moving the mouthpiece in, did you have to slide/scrape the mouthpiece much against your top teeth? (or are you doing this double lip like in the video?) I ask this because in my usual embouchure I apply quite a bit of downward pressure from my top teeth and not as much from my jaw, so I have to admit that the idea of sliding the clarinet inward with my teeth on the mouthpiece makes me a little uncomfortable (and it probably would not be possible on my old mouthpiece, which featured rather deep teeth indentations by the time I was done with it).
The video makes it appear as if most single lip players' teethmarks on the mouthpiece are the result of pushing the mouthpiece upward in the direction of the upper teeth using the jaw, whereas I think I probably tend to put more weight into the upper teeth to start with and then bring the jaw up with a moderate amount of jaw pressure applied to the reed. Does that make me a rebel?
Also, since you mentioned this, I thought I'd share that I've been sort of experimenting with a related idea I picked up from somebody's DMA dissertation I ran across on the Internet the other day while searching for something else. (Just so I don't look like I'm taking credit for someone else's idea, this technique was described in an excerpt from an interview with Stanley Hasty--so this is his idea, not mine [likewise, it's entirely his fault if it doesn't work ])
Basically the idea is that on a pp attack you start your airflow before the note starts (you let the air hiss through the instrument without making it speak) and right at the moment the note is supposed to start you tongue the reed while simultaneously tightening your embouchure so as to make the note speak. So the articulation is sort of like a "hhh-tah," where the "tah" is the note. Of course, the "hhh" part is quiet enough that nobody except for perhaps the player sitting next to you notices (which, for orchestra playing, is just fine).
This idea is supposed to accomplish two things: 1.) You have a more definite and secure start to the note because you don't have to rely on your respiratory system to get the timing right, 2.) You avoid the initial sharpness that usually occurs when you attack a note while beginning the flow of air.
The most noticable difference, of course, between what you're describing and what I read about is that in what you're describing, the tightening occurs as a result of the mouthpiece being moved toward the embouchure, whereas the idea I read about seems to assume that you will tighten the embouchure around the mouthpiece (presumably with the top teeth already in place).
I'm not trying to advocate for any particular technique--after all, I just started trying this Hasty idea, myself--but I thought I'd mention what I had found since it was in a similar vein, and I thought it might be interesting to consider both of these ideas together and see if that might lead to the discovery of new insights.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2008-10-02 18:21
I have played double lip for decades and do so almost exactly as Tom Ridenour describes. I can also play single lip using the same technique of forming the aperture first.
I think your question about scraping the teeth on the top of the mouthpiece while it is being inserted is a bit of a misunderstanding on your part (although I can see how anyone could come to that conclusion).
What Tom Ridenour is saying is that you form the embouchure first, then, as Mr. Pay says, "move the mouthpiece in until it is snug." That's how it works. So you're not sliding the mouthpiece in, you're inserting it until it is snug.
The only difference between the final result, a double or single lip embouchure, is that in the latter, the teeth touch (or press to some degree or other) onto the top of the mouthpiece. Everything else is identical.
As a single lip player, if you find that your teeth tend to scrape as your insert the mouthpiece, open your mouth a tiny bit more. Then close it to form your embouchure.
Incidentally, regarding mouthpiece patches and double lip, I play without one but can also play with one. I doesn't seem to matter in my case. For single lip players, however, I would think it matters more as the feeling of the teeth on a bare mouthpiece can be unpleasant.
Hope this helps.
Post Edited (2008-10-02 18:28)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-10-03 18:31
My teacher taught me double lip in 3, or maybe a few more, lessons, my first lessons, 75 years ago. Used it ever since; all my mpcs look unused.
richard smith
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-10-03 19:58
With Tom's method I have had success enabling every novice student I have come across to succeed sounding the mouthpiece and barrel within the first lesson (and often a great deal more). Now being vigilant so that the fundamentals are set always takes a couple lessons or more, depending on the student.
MRN,
I almost always have my embouchure set and air moving into the instrument before any first note I play, whether I tongue it or not. I find this works well for me at any dynamic.
My two cents, James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-10-04 18:14
How significant is the right thumb pressure to single lip playing? If you rest the clarinet beteen the legs or on the knee or even use a neckstrap this seems to in my mind to encourage biting in that the wedge or shim approach to single lip is replaced with up and down biting. Keep thumb pressure?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-05 20:15
I just got a note back from Tom Ridenour regarding his videos. He is glad that we are getting useful info from them, and would love to hear from clarinet players via e-mail when you have questions about the clarinet that might make a good subject for a video. As he told me, he prefers to answer our questions rather than to guess what information we might find useful.
The e-mail address to post a question is tom@ridenourclarinetproducts.com .
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-08 03:29
I think the discussion about double lip is very interesting and educational. I play single lip my self but have no problem with someone playing double lip if it makes them sound or articulate better. I often ask students to try doing it for a short time when working with them with their embouchure, for any number of reasons. I find it also helps students relax if their biting, helps them develop the use of their upper lip when they go back to single lip and actually helps open their throat. Although few of my students ever decided to use double lip I don’t encourage or discourage it, it’s what works best for them. My general philosophy of teaching and playing the clarinet. I’ve worked with Iggy Gennusa who played double lip when he was the principal in the BSO and he had a beautiful tone but I also know many players that sound wonderful playing single lip. I also know of players playing single or double lip whose tone quality I dislike, so it’s even. One interesting story is that when I studied with Anthony Gigliotti for a while he advocated using a rubber mouthpiece pad so the top teeth would not touch the mouthpiece and keeping the upper lip folded into the top of the mouthpiece so it would simulate playing double lip. The thing was, I really didn’t like his tone but he still had a lot to offer as a teacher. I never could get used to the rubber pad so I never used one but I loved the part about the use of the top lip. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, single lip
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