 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: michal
Date: 2008-09-04 08:21
Hi All,
I bought my Bflat clarinet, simple Buffet R13 couple of years ago. I am an intonation freak, so made sure it was a good, intuned( as much as possible) instrument. It's been just now, last couple of weeks, when I play I see that it is almost always high above the long B and up. Low and middle register notes are fine, but once I cross the bridge...its way too high.
I wanted to see if this is something that happens to clarinets after 2 years, or maybe shows on a problem.
In any case, some solutions could work as well( and Im not thinking mouthpiece or barrel- tried that )
Many thanks for all of u
Michal
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-04 13:59
I think it's questionable that in the last few weeks the clarinet would change unless it was in a very poor environment for that time which I don’t believe you would have let happen. You know, in an extremely humid, or very hot place. So it’s more likely that it happened gradually and you didn’t notice, I can’t really tell from here. In any case since you said you tried different barrels, which would have been my first obvious suggestion since it’s the whole upper register, I’m assuming it’s a problem with the bore in the upper joint. First, you should try lowering the register key to see if that brings down the pitch. The next thing I would try, if you have it available to you, is to try out several different register tubes to see if one on them corrects the problem without making the throat Bb out of tune. If all else fails you’ll have to go to someone that is really knowledge about bore work and see if there is something they can see. Good luck. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-04 14:14
"...and Im not thinking mouthpiece or barrel- tried that..."
But you didn't tell us what you tried. This is sounds to me like a classic issue of wide twelths which can be mitigated or eliminated by the use of a reverse taper barrel. The reverse taper barrel was innovated by Hans Moenig and Lee Springer (not together).
So was the right barrel a part of what you tried? Moenig, Chadash, Segal, Fobes, Backun, etc, all produce this type of barrel...but you must specify what you want.
Nice to have a chance to disagree with Ed, and I apologize Michal if this was a solution that you already tried!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-04 16:14
Hey Tobin, you didn't disagree with me. I assumed he tried several different barrels and mouthpieces so I suggested "other alternatives". See, were on the same page, let's not confuse Michal.
I used to use Chadash's reversed tapered barrels on my A and Bb, one’s he custom made for me, and they didn't effect the 12ths at all, I just liked the quality and focus better, before I changed to the Backun barrels, which I find do that even better, for me. I guess they may help Michal though so it's worth a try if he hasn't tried them. ESP
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-04 16:28
Sorry! No confusion meant! I was just enjoying an opportunity to have some other to say than "...I agree with Ed" (which I do so often).
This was also the first thing I did today, and I didn't have my coffee. Rereading your post, Ed, I see that we're actually in complete agreement.
I would be interested in the solution that works best for Michal, though, so keep us posted.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: michal
Date: 2008-09-04 18:24
Hello!
Well, let me first say thanks for the lively threads!Its great to know there are people out there willing to help.
Second, I am actually a GIRL - just wanted u to know...
As far as the problem, I think I wasnt clear- the problem isn't s much in the throat tones, its more in the notes following that. I wish i was technicaly able to explain, but I do agree it is HOT in Israel, although I am playing in airconditioned room, with the temp 25 cel.
I play Moening barrels, and have been for years now. I tried to switch between the 65mm to the 66mm, only since here we play at 442 pitch.65 always worked well in all registers, and I was always low on the 66mm.
I play Vandoren B40 88 layer..it should be enough to stabalize the pitch, and often im accused of being too low here in Israel.
I agree this could have happened over time, although not likely, since I play in orchestra and had no trouble till really recently.
I think best is for me to go to a pro since i don't have any technical abilities whatsoever...
Thanks again for your help!
Michal
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Author: am0032
Date: 2008-09-04 20:00
Wood is a very flexible material and can change without giving you much notice(Some woods more than others). Interior dimensions can flex in such a way that an instrument may crack or just bow in a way that is not visible to the naked eye.
Adam
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 12:59
Skygardener,
That wouldn't account for the pitch being accurate in the low register and sharp in the upper.
Michal, sorry for the gender mistake. Were I you personally I would investigate to determine which is easier in your area: finding a repair tech and exploring Ed's suggestions on the register vent, or putting your hands on a another different reverse taper barrel.
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: JTS
Date: 2008-09-05 14:24
I live in an extremely dry climate. I distinctly remember that in the spring of 2007 (the humidity tends to hover around 5% here during April and May) I had a period of a week or two in which I felt that the tuning ratios on both my A and B-flat clarinets were severly out of whack. It dawned on me that I hadn't oiled the bores in months and after doing so both my clarinets immediately regained the pitch tendancies I am accustomed to. Might be worth a try. Stress on the wood caused by extreme humidity conditions can definitely have small effects on the shape of the bore-anyone who has carefully compared the pitch tendencies of different barrel designs knows how much minor adjustments in bore volume can affect tuning in different registers.
JTS
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 14:36
"It is common for the lower register to be flat and the upper register to be in tune. In warm temperatures, the ratio is unchanged, but the flat lowers become in-tune and the in-tune highs become sharp."
True, but irrelevant to the original post. Michal describes a clarinet that was in tune between register when it was bought, but now ONLY the upper register has become sharp.
The lower register being flat when beginning is only true for some people and some clarinets. Also, the fact that the instrument would start (low register/high register) flat/in-tune and later in-tune/sharp is describing a situation in which the clarinet has wide twelfths. Its' pitch relative-to-itself between registers has remained constant even though the pitch relative-to-tuner has gone up.
You will not find a situation in which the clarinet starts in-tune/in-tune and then becomes in-tune/sharp. So in this case, the relative temperature is irrelevant.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 14:50
After re-reading your post, Skygardener, I have more to disagree with.
"...but I suspect it is possible that this 12th spread has always been there and she had not noticed it before."
Michal has stated that she is an "intonation freak" and examined the instrument thoroughly. There is no reason to disbelieve her, aside from pure unwarranted speculation on your part. Is it possible? Yes. But why don't we take Michal at face value and presume that something has changed in some part of her clarinet and offer solutions instead?
" I tried a few new Festivals, side by side with my current ones, and I found nearly ZERO difference in the tuning of my old ones and the new ones."
I would find it hard to find any two instruments that had exactly the same pitch tendencies...regardless of what decade they came from. And any two that I did find would probably have no substantive relationship to the other. No two instruments play alike, and this statement seems to be remarkably dubious at best.
"The low F that is 20 cents flat on my A is also 20 cents flat on the new A that I tried."
Classic Buffet design flaw that exists on almost all their horns...it's put their INTENTIONALLY!
Many statements here presented as fact that don't bear out.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-09-05 14:53)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-05 15:28
Hi Michal, how are you?
Maybe they thought your name was Michael and you can't spell... ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-09-05 15:29
"I would find it hard to find any two instruments that had exactly the same pitch tendencies...regardless of what decade they came from. And any two that I did find would probably have no substantive relationship to the other. No two instruments play alike, and this statement seems to be remarkably dubious at best."
"[regarding pitch tendencies on two Buffets] Classic Buffet design flaw that exists on almost all their horns...it's put there INTENTIONALLY!"
To me, these two statements seem self-contradicting. No two instruments have the same pitch tendencies. All Buffets have the same pitch tendencies. The only conclusion I can draw is "Buffets are not instruments." (Or is that your point? )
But, skygardner, the appropriate comparison to determine if a change has occurred in a particular instrument would be the instrument when it was new vs. the same instrument at a later date rather than the instrument years after its purchase with new instruments.
Every wood clarinet is a unique piece of timber. The fact that some may remain dimensionally stable for many years is no guarantee that others won't change. I'm not a big fan of frequent oiling but, in this case, I think it would be an inexpensive fix and worth trying before something more drastic like re-boring one or both joints. Even before oiling, though, I think I might try cleaning the register tube to make sure it hadn't picked up some lint from a swab.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 15:37
Hello Jack, a clarification:
"[The low F that is 20 cents flat] is a Classic Buffet design flaw that exists on almost all their horns...it's put there INTENTIONALLY!"
Buffet R13's and the upper echelons are designed with the low F (and E less so) flat so that the resulting clarion C (and B) are not too sharp. I was speaking of a singular instance, not that Buffet puts flaws in their horns intentionally.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-09-05 15:39)
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Author: michal
Date: 2008-09-05 16:33
Well well... U definately show some serious thinking behind your comments. I wanted to asnwer that I practice and play in rooms that range in summer temp to 22-25 celsius(forgot the farenheit equalls). I play in heated rooms in the winder, but nothing too hot.
Now, I am interested in the oiling possiblity- what is the best oil to use and how would this be done? I had my friend do this for me and it has been a while now, so I do think it is worth a try!
Waiting for your educated advice!
many thanks,
Michal
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-05 16:53
Hi again Michal
If you're in the holy city (or is that the holy s*itty? ) I can oil your clarinet if you want. I use the oil from Omar Henderson (the Doctor). Regarding what oil is best, I choose to believe Omar that this oil is better than other oils for the reasons he mentioned in the past on this forum. Some repairers (or just someone) might tell you the oil they use is best, but unless they actually did a very thourogh and controlled test of different oils it's just regular salesmanship. But I can't say for sure whether it would fix the problem or not, it's something you can try if you want. You can also try a couple of barrels I have, and maybe mix and match with barrels/joints of other R13s I have here to possibly narrow it down.
You can call/email me if you want
Nitai
Post Edited (2008-09-05 16:59)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 20:40
25 X 9 = 225 / 5 = 45 + 32 = 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
James
((CX9)/5)+32 = Fahrenheit.
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-09-05 20:54
"Now, I am interested in the oiling possiblity- what is the best oil to use and how would this be done? I had my friend do this for me and it has been a while now, so I do think it is worth a try!"
The doctor makes two different plant based oil formulations: the original Bore Doctor and the newer GrenadOil. I use the GrenadOil with very nice results. It costs more, but it works very well, and you only need a little. A very small bottle is good for six oilings. I also use the oiling rig, which makes it very easy and applies the oil very evenly. You can find all of this at http://www.doctorsprod.com
You can also use a clean clarinet swab (cotton rather than silk). Keep this one just for oiling. Apply a few drops of oil to the swab and pull it through the bore several times. Repeat as needed. The initial oiling may require several applications, spaced a day or two apart.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-09-06 13:24)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-06 08:09
>> The doctor makes two different organic oil formulations
Are you sure about that? I don't think I ever saw on his website or here claim the oils are organic. For something to be organic there are pretty exact rules. Some of those rules are silly, but you can't call something organic unless it actually is. I guess the problem I have with mentioning organic is that sometimes something non-organic isn't worse in any way and possibly better, so I wouldn't want to confuse anyone into thinking organic automatically means "better".
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-06 12:21
The Grenadoil oil cannot be all organic, because that term is not used for synthesised materials, and at least some component of the Grenadilla is synthesised to exactly duplicate a natural component in the naturally occurring oil.
Other components are distilled from grenadilla chips. I'm not even sure that the term organic could be applied to something distilled.
However that is not to say it is not a chemically identical oil to what occurs in natural grenadilla timber.
Whatever. Both the Doctors Products bore oils are very highly regarded.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-09-06 13:23
I didn't mean organic in the way it has come to be taken as far as some of the over-hyped ways of marketing certain foods. I meant that the oils are plant-based (they come from living organism) and are not products of mineral oils.
I will go back and edit the original post to reflect this.
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-09-08 00:56
Oiling the bore of a clarinet is controversial but if done correctly should not do any harm. The thing is, it’s not going to change the intonation of the upper register. My first suggestion about lowering the register key might work, have you tried it? It’s very simple, just put a piece of thin cardboard or cork or tape under the key so it doesn’t go down so far. If it makes the upper register better without affecting the throat Bb you have it solved. If not I really suggest you go somewhere and try several different size register tubes. Clarinets do not go out of tune suddenly in two weeks, even if you are a girl and not a misspelled guy. Good luck, ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-08 12:02
"You can also try a couple of barrels I have"
Nitai....you must really use a lot of oil to buy it by the barrel.....lol....bob
Bob Draznik
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Author: michal
Date: 2008-09-08 15:38
Hey all!
I still havent tried the oiling, but wanted to ask Ed where exactly to put the tape?you say the register key, but I am not sure i understood if you mean in the back part of register key or front, where the throat a is played?
As for how high it is- about 20 above the needle... pretty high.
thanks again!
Nitai, I won't be in Jerusalem, but would like to try the oiling anyhow. Write me text if u intend to come to TLV anytime soon?
michal
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-08 16:17
Hi Michal
I don't know yet, but I might be in Tel Aviv. I'll let you know.
Re the tape, you can notice the register key has a side with the pad and a side that you press. Under the place where you press there is a cork or felt that hits the wood so the metal doesn't hit it directly. This also controls the amount the register pad opens. You add the tape (or anything) between the cork/felt and wood so the register key opens less (just glue it to the cork). Add layers gradually and check intonation.
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