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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2008-09-02 07:31
Here is a question that has been running around in my mind for a few weeks. Does anyone know the answer?
Most of my musical life has been spent in concert bands in one form or another. I can understand that as concert bands are very closely related to military bands, playing ON the beat is very important, especially for marches. Can anyone explain why orchestras play BEHIND the beat? I find it strange to watch. Or is it a European thing? I have been watching the BBC proms on the telly and have particularly noticed it this year, but I haven't seen any broadcasts by non-European orchestras.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-09-02 12:14
Your perception of when the beat occurs may also be influenced by the time taken for sound to travel from instrument to TV camera. Sound travels at roughly 340 metres per second. Playing an allegro at 120 beats per minute, the beats are 0.5 seconds apart, so a listener 170 metres away will hear the first beat of the bar as the conductor indicates the second beat. The Albert Hall isn't that large of course, only about 60 metres in diameter, but that distance may be enough to cause some confusion.
I guess it is also possible that the TV recording does not exactly synchronise picture and sound. Have you tried watching the timpani player, or a cymbal clash, to see whether there is any delay? Bear in mind that, if they using some microphones near the players and others further away, the microphones will pick up the same sound at different times, and they may be using all sorts of jiggery-pokery to make the broadcast sound good.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2008-09-02 12:36
I have recently heard from several independent sources that orchestras play -behind- the beat. My question is 'Why?'. Watching Sir Colin Davis conduct Sibelius 2 last night particularly brought it home to me. What I saw was The Beat, then, afterwards, the sting bows & timp sticks started to move, the start of the sound being synchronous with the start of physical movement from the orchestra. You could see mics all round the orchestra, so the sound from instrument to mic was only 2 or 3 metres at most. Any time delay there would be negligible.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-09-02 12:57
"Any time delay there would be negligible" - unless the BBC deliberately inserted a delay. I think the only way to judge this is to watch with the sound off, then you should be able to determine reliably what gesture of the conductor corresponds to the start of the beat. Have you tried doing this? I find it really difficult! The concert you refer to is on http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d98t3/. Have a look and see whether you can find a point in time that illustrates the delay you perceive.
I'm not (necessarily) arguing that you are wrong, just interested to have some evidence.
................
On another topic entirely, the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra in that broadcast uses both French and German clarinets, and both French and German trumpets - simultaneously, that is, not different instruments for different repertoire. Those of you who believe that these instruments necessarily sound different might want to listen to the effect of mixing them.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-09-02 13:32
I think there is truth in what you say. I've played in bands and orchestras over the years, but I have much more band experience. When I first played in an orchestra way back in high school, it was quite an adjustment for me to get used to the conductor's beat (yes, it was slightly "delayed"). When I've attended orchestra concerts in person, I've often noticed the same thing.
Since I don't have all that much orchestral playing experience, I can't generalize and say that all orchestras and orchestra conductors do this. I remember reading an interesting interview with Doc Severinsen in the Instrumentalist many years ago. Doc mentioned that when he conducts a band, the players are used to playing right on the beat, and that's the way he conducts. He said it was an adjustment for him when he first conducted an orchestra because the musicians kept coming in just a bit after his beats. I think he told the orchestra what he was doing, and the musicians adjusted.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-02 14:13
Not attempting to provide a concrete explanation, but rather another bit of data that should be considered:
The accuracy of the beat pattern (and even if a clear beat is given at all) is proportional to the inexperience of the musicians playing. When a fine conductor is conducting a fine ensemble the director has a much greater latitude to conduct the phrase knowing that the musicians don't need a metronome flailing away up there.
Not to say that the beat is completely cast aside...necessarily!
I am also not attempting to say that orchestral musicians are "better" than band musicians. But for most people if you're attempting to compare the conducting of your community band vs. the conducting of local professional orchestra there is a fundamental difference in where the conductor's priorities lie.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-09-02 14:16
Jaz Coleman (of Killing Joke) mentioned this delay when he worked with orchestras (either during the time he did 'The Doors Concerto' or 'Kashmir') in that when he gave the beat, the players came in behind the beat.
I've always noticed this factor too - it seems the orchestra is around half a beat behind the conductor (though sound and vision are in sync). Then it gets interesting with soloists and orchestras - sometimes I've watched the soloist being on the beat and the orchestral players playing underneath them being behind the beat rather than the soloist and orchestral player forming a unity.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-02 15:18
I almost wrote something about this the other day in another thread. I've often noticed the same sort of difference between band and orchestra conducting.
I've often wondered if this has something to do with the fact that in a marching band the players are much more dependent upon visual cues to keep in time because of the sound delays associated with large open areas, whereas in an orchestra setting, one is more able to rely on one's ears to keep time because everyone sits relatively close together, so the conductors job is more interpretational.
When I was in all-state band in HS, the all-state conductor had us try a little "experiment" during rehearsal to demonstrate to us that we didn't need to rely on her all that much. She had us close our eyes and simply listen for the first chair clarinet (whom she had dubbed the "concertmaster") to breathe to give us the cue to start playing. To everyone's amazement, the whole band came in together. You can do that indoors on a stage, but you can't do that outside in a field.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-02 16:01
I find it difficult to believe that a noted symphony conductor would stand for musicians not playing on the beat. I am inclined to believe that Norbert's analysis is on the right track. I'm reminded of the delay between our perceptions of lightning flashes and the sound of thunder. (You can't always believe what you see on TV.)
Bob Draznik
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-02 16:07
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
<<On another topic entirely, the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra in that broadcast uses both French and German clarinets, and both French and German trumpets - simultaneously, that is, not different instruments for different repertoire. Those of you who believe that these instruments necessarily sound different might want to listen to the effect of mixing them.>>
We had a German clarinet player who played Oehler in a community wind ensemble I was in several years ago. We didn't have any problems blending, either.
If it works for Julian Bliss and Sabine Meyer (listen to their Krommer double concerto recording), it works for me...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-02 16:14
BobD wrote:
<<I find it difficult to believe that a noted symphony conductor would stand for musicians not playing on the beat. I am inclined to believe that Norbert's analysis is on the right track. I'm reminded of the delay between our perceptions of lightning flashes and the sound of thunder. (You can't always believe what you see on TV.)>>
Norbert is probably right about the delay on TV, but from my experience in playing in orchestras and bands, there is a difference between the styles of orchestra conductors and band directors that you can see as a musician on the stage that I don't think can be accounted for purely by physics. (Although playing clarinet on the front row of a band puts you closer to the conductor than playing on the next-to-last row in an orchestra, I don't think it's a big enough difference to be noticeable.)
It's not that orchestra directors tolerate musicians not being on the beat--I think the conducting pattern is simply executed differently and according to a different philosophy.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-09-02 16:47
It is very common for an ensemble to play slightly behind the conductor. Unless the ensemble is telepathic, it can only make a very good guess at exactly where the conductor's beat is going to be. If the ensemble tries to be exactly on the ictus of the conductor, there's likely to be some second-guessing and general disagreement about where the beat is.
Instead, many good ensembles come to an unspoken consensus about where they play in relation to the conductor's beat. In some groups, this delay is very short, in others fairly long. If the group is comfortable with each other and the conductor is comfortable with the concept of delay, the group can be very tight and precise, even with wildly varying rubato. Rubato is MUCH more difficult to pull off cleanly if the entire ensemble has to guess where the downbeat is going to be rather than react to where they just saw it a split second ago.
In a very fine ensemble I used to play with, I saw some guest conductors completely frazzled and uncomfortable with the fact that we played a bit behind them, and others simply say "Ahhh, you guys play with a big delay" and slide right in comfortably.
In my experience, the performers are much more comfortable and the conductor much more effective in situations with a short delay than those where the conductor demands that you play "right with me". It just isn't going to happen.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-09-02 17:20
It's not so much the orchestra playing behind the beat as it is the conductor signaling ahead of the beat. Here is an explanation of how to give the opening downbeat, from conductor Max Rudolf:
>>Some German conductors use an anticipatory beat, The played attack does not coincide with the baton movement but follows it by as much as half a second or longer . . . . The reason that the anticipatory beat works is that the players are accustomed to adjusting their attacks so that they follow immediately after the beat. Many conductors, however, adhere to the principle of always beating *with* the orchestra . . . . Every conductor must find the method that is most effective for him."
--Max Rudolf, "The Grammar of Conducting" (New York: Schirmer, 1950, p. 247.
The conductor who signals the attack early then continues to wield the baton ahead of the audible beat. Rudolf explains that orchestras get set in their ways and that a visiting conductor would do well to choose to conduct either on the beat or ahead of the beat based on what the musicians are already trained to expect. Notice that publication date: the anticipatory beat was already an established practice by 1950.
Though apparently the early beat began in Germany, it long ago crossed international borders. I remember reading elsewhere that, when Georg Solti first began conducting in Chicago, there was quite a controversy over his early beat until the orchestra got used to it.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2008-09-02 17:25)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-02 17:32
If you've ever watched the Vienna Philharmonic play a Johann Strauss waltz, you would clearly see that they (intentionally) rush the second beat.
This gives the waltz a unique lilting motion and makes it much less metronomic ...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-09-02 17:55
String players are the worst culprits for playing behind the beat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-03 01:13
One idea about this is that a conductor indicates to the musicians what he/she wants them to do. In that context, they really can't give you instruction of what to do "as you do it". Instruction (in all situations in life) must happen before the request is executed.
Once in orchestra rehearsal in college, I was playing failrly with the beat and the conductor said that it was making him uncomfortable that I was watching his each and every movement and following it so exactly. So I stopped paying attention and he was happy thereafter. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-03 11:59
I assume we are talking about the "beat" and not the downbeat....or are we.
Bob Draznik
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2008-09-03 14:10
I think Leila's post is right on. Years ago I read in Time Magazine on this subject. What I recall after these decades is that a school of conducting is that the conductor indicates where the music is going, not where it is.
I recall seeing conductors indicate a huge crash beats before it is played.
I've never had the opportunity to play with such a conductor, and anticipate it'd take a little getting used to, but I can appreciate the usefulness of it.
I note the assistant conductor of the SF Symphony, uses this technique:
'...Most of the gestures of the conductors are not there to keep a beat, but rather to elicit a color. "Conducting is an anticipatory art," Gaffigan explained, so that his gestures translate into sound, but with various delays.'
from:
http://sfist.com/2008/07/15/summer_in_the_city_symphony_series.php
Vann Joe
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-09-03 20:03
I can't believe Jimmy Gaffigan made it onto this board. He is also definitely an up and coming conductor to watch (makes his debut with Chicago this year). What a crazy kid. With orchestras that can take it, he conducts ahead of the beat.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-09-03 22:34
Orchestral playing is chamber music on a large scale. I for one never really watch the conductor unless they are inspiring an have something to say about the piece that hasn't been said before. It's all about following the leader in most cases.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-04 02:03
Hello Peter,
You make a good point that has not been discussed so far, and it illuminates another idea. I would have thought that a conductor conducting ahead of the beat to be common knowledge, so perhaps this isn't either?
"It's all about following the leader in most cases."
If you are in the wind section, and you are not playing the principal part, your job is essentially to do as the principal does (articulations, style, phrasing, etc...).
If you are a principal, then many of those musical phenomena are developed over time within the "committee" of the other principals, who also really (to greater or lesser degree) interpret the conductor.
The string sections function similarly.
Would some of the members of pro orchestras comment? I'm believe that what I'm saying is generally correct but you may elaborate to everyone's benefit!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: marcia
Date: 2008-09-04 02:45
I have played in a number of amateur groups over the past several years, community band, high level wind ensemble, community orchestra, with many different conductors. None of them has tolerated the ensemble coming in "after the beat". All have insisted the group come in with him/her.
And the instruction "watch me!" is a favourite. The concept that orchestras play "behind the beat" is defintely not one that is familiar to me. But maybe we do things differently up here in Canada....?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-04 03:12
marcia wrote:
> I have played in a number of amateur groups over the past
> several years, community band, high level wind ensemble,
> community orchestra, with many different conductors. None of
> them has tolerated the ensemble coming in "after the beat". All
> have insisted the group come in with him/her.
> And the instruction "watch me!" is a favourite. The concept
> that orchestras play "behind the beat" is defintely not one
> that is familiar to me. But maybe we do things differently up
> here in Canada....?
Although admittedly I can't speak for Canadians, I don't think the difference in practice divides along national lines as much as it does between amateur and professional groups (or between conductors who normally conduct amateur vs. professional groups).
The orchestras that I played in where the conductor and orchestra appeared to be the least synchronized were all ones in which the conductor normally directed professional or "studying-to-be-professional" (e.g., conservatory/university) orchestras. Our high school orchestra director, by contrast, was from the "watch me" camp (as was our band director).
Post Edited (2008-09-04 03:16)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-04 03:17
That's why I pointed out earlier:
"The accuracy of the beat pattern (and even if a clear beat is given at all) is proportional to the inexperience of the musicians playing."
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-09-05 12:10
I remember a few years ago attending a rehearsal of our orchestra where the musicians were completely exhasperated with the guest conductor's bizarre interpretation of a well known piece. After several attempts by various individuals to question the conductor's interpretation and being ignored, they all came to the agreement among themselves that they would play it the way they wanted in the performance and have the conductor follow them. This is a group who'd played together many years. The concert was a great success and the conductor took his bows graciously that night. At least he wasn't sent home during rehearsals as one young conductor was when preparing for another concert! It was mutiny that weekend. They brought in a well-loved conductor who by chance happened to be free.
But this group, too, plays slightly behind the beat. Asking the principle clarinetist about that he said that it's true, and that they constantly listen carefully to each other. Now they have a new music director so I'll have to pay closer attention to what they do now.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-05 12:16
This has been alluded to above, but the ensemble is not playing behind the beat. The ensemble is uniform in its' interpretation of the conductor who is ahead of the beat. Just makes more sense this way...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-09-06 00:15
I can think of 3 reasons why professional orchestras play "behind the beat". Two have already been mentioned here:
1. There is a necessary delay in reaction time to the conductor's beat.
2. It gives the conductor an opportunity to show what should happen before it actually happens.
The third reason is that there can be a tremendous amount of tension created between a conductor's beat and the actual entrance of the orchestra. It creates the feeling of "and... ... nnnNOW!" I don't know how else to describe it, but anyone who has experienced it will know what I mean. It makes the WITH ME!- approach seem very predictable and uninteresting. Different orchestras and conductors have different reaction times, but if you play in an orchestra with a particular conductor for a while you get used to their delay.
I find it interesting that it has been described as a "European thing". Leonard Bernstein is the example I can think of for a conductor who conducted furthest ahead of the beat. And what an incredible conductor he was!
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Author: marshall
Date: 2008-09-06 07:13
The wind ensemble in my highschool always played behind the beat...even in marches.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-09-06 13:29
Hi Tobin
When I said "follow the leader" I was mainly refering to the concert master but you make a valid point with regard to the wind section.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-09-16 09:27
Interesting, all very interesting.
Last time I saw Georg Solti conducting on TV, I swear he was conducting upside down - giving the orchestra upbeats, to which they were playing in exact time... :-)
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