 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-28 03:17
Much has been written about the Ginastera Variacions Concertantes -
one thing I can't find, however, is how to obtain a copy of the clarinet part.
Does anyone know where one can be found? Its not in any of my extract books. I believe it is rental only, I'll need more practice time than the 5 weeks I'll have once rehearsals start. So I'm SOL unless I can get a part to study.
Yes I can hit the high C#. Usually. When the moon is in the correct phase, and the stars align just right...
I think my symphony conductor hates me this year... pewd's having to practice more than usual....
TIA
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-08-28 03:39
Paul,
I don't remember the issue (GBK will probably know) but I think David Niethamer and his clarinet partner at the time, did a "masterclass" on the Ginastera for "The Clarinet" with excerpts of at least some of the nastier parts. If you belong to ICA, you probably have it. As I recall, they may have traded off with the second clarinet actually hitting the high notes on Eb.
Or my memory could be completely wrong. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-28 05:27
Someone sent me the part, thanks.
I wonder if my 2nd (who posts here) has an eefer
We'll see what happens in a few weeks when I try to hit that high C#. Fortunately, I have until next May.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-28 16:56
does anyone have a copy of the 2nd part you can share?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-08-29 03:28
When I did it I played the whole thing on Bb as written and switched to Eb for that run having the second player begin the run for me. Now I would just stay on the Bb and go to a high C# because now I can, maybe. Many players transpose the whole thing on A making that a high D but you can transpose some of it and play that section on the Bb if you like. So either do it all on Bb, all on A or some on each. Or on a C clarinet, if you have one. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
(I edited this from my first post because I was in error, sorry about that.)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-08-29 15:03)
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-08-29 10:45
hmmmm
my memory of this part (admittedly, somewhat dim) has it as a high C# for the B flat clarinet, a high D for the A clarinet.... but....
I played the middle section on a C clarinet, and ended the run on a high B, if I remember correctly... of course, if i could find the part in my piles of music.... I don't find C# or D particularly difficult, but have a great fingering for the B that is 100% reliable.
btw
the article in the Clarinet mag includes the whole solo transposed for A clarinet, plus the 2nd part (for the solo section) transposed to Eefer, with the last bar of the solo run included. It's small in size, so you have to photocopy and then enlarge to get it up to A4 (or the US 8.5/11 size).
dn
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-08-29 13:01
A larger question is: What the blazes was Ginastera thinking when he wrote something like that into an orchestra part?! We've had a lot of discussions about respecting a composer's wishes and playing on exactly the same instruments the composer specified and treating the score as holy writ and yadda yadda yadda, but in a case such as this one, I think a musician is entirely justified in playing the "wrong" instrument in the service of making the music sound good.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-29 13:58
the Bb part goes to C#
if you play it on an A clarinet, that becomes a high D
if you play it on a C clarinet, its a high B
Lelia, yup, I wonder that myself
Now I'm trying to key it into Finale, and can't get the tuplet tool to work properly. grrrr.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-29 15:51
Lelia Loban wrote:
> A larger question is: What the blazes was Ginastera thinking when he
> wrote something like that into an orchestra part?! We've had a lot of
> discussions about respecting a composer's wishes and playing on exactly
> the same instruments the composer specified and treating the score as
> holy writ and yadda yadda yadda, but in a case such as this one, I think
> a musician is entirely justified in playing the "wrong" instrument in the
> service of making the music sound good.
Actually, as for the score, it's written at concert pitch. Go to http://www.boosey.com/cr/sheet-music/Alberto-Ginastera-Variaciones-Concertantes-Op23/1922 and click "View Sample Page" to see. Although it's a rental piece, apparently you can buy a pocket-sized study score.
There are probably a number of good reasons why the rental part was written in Bb:
1.) The style of the clarinet movement suggests a brighter, more Bb-like sound.
2.) I don't think you can play the *entire* movement on a C or Eb clarinet because the notes sound like they go down too low in one passage (although switching is possible, obviously).
3.) There was a movement at the time (early to mid 20th century) to do away with the A clarinet (the C clarinet already being thought of by many at the time as obsolete) and play everything on the Bb (full Boehm), and while this movement did not catch on everywhere, it *did* in Latin America.
It could actually be that Ginastera (or maybe Boosey & Hawkes) thought he was (or they were) doing everybody a favor by writing the part for Bb, since if it had been written for the A clarinet, a lot of South American clarinettists would be transposing it for the Bb, anyway.
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Author: AZRobert1
Date: 2008-08-29 16:08
I play it on C clarinet and read off the score. Seriously - it works and falls under the fingers a lot better. The score was in our music library.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-29 17:27
"...about respecting a composer's wishes and playing on exactly the same instruments the composer specified and treating the score as holy writ... "
I think there are many places in which the pros who have the jobs do whatever allows the passage to be played most easily.
Brahms 3 comes to mind. One of the accompanying solos in Borodin's Polovetsian Dances. There are differing opinions on which horn to use playing the Peter and the Wolfe cadenza. The fifth movement of Rimsky-Korsakov's Cappriccio Espagnol. The Ginastera is an excellent example.
I also think that the predilection to use what is most enabling is more often used in orchestral literature than in the solo rep. (Yip...Debussy's premiere rhapsody would be a whole lot easier on A clarinet).
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-08-29 20:16)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-08-29 19:59
Almost 20 years ago when we played this at college, I used my instructor's C clarinet. Or was it a D clarinet??? One or the other...he had me play it that way. Not for the whole thing though, just where it became necessary.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-29 21:04
Tobin wrote:
> I think there are many places in which the pros who have the jobs do
> whatever allows the passage to be played most easily.
Absolutely! Whatever Ginastera's reasons for writing the part for Bb clarinet, ultimately it's up to us the players to make it sound the best, however we accomplish that. And sometimes (as may be the case here), the composer's rationale for choosing a particular key of instrument may not be compelling in all situations.
I also tend to think that the obsession some players have with playing everything only on the key of instrument the part was originally scored for is a somewhat recent phenomenon. I might be wrong, but my impression is that 50 years ago people were more comfortable with the idea of transposing parts to play on the equipment of the day than in today's age of specialized instruments (like Boehm system basset clarinets for playing Mozart, for instance).
And as I said, Latin American clarinettists are more used to transposing than we are, so I think you can still feel good about transposing Ginastera even from a historically-informed performace standpoint--it's what they might do if confronted with a part for A clarinet, for instance. For all we know, Ginastera might have had in mind a sound more like a C clarinet, but scored it for Bb because he knew that in 1953 in Argentina practically nobody would play it on a C clarinet.
> I also think that the predilection to use what is most enabling is more
> often used in orchestral literature than in the solo rep. (Yip...Debussy's
> premiere rhapsody would be a whole lot easier on A clarinet).
I've often thought that perhaps Debussy's purpose in writing certain passages in Premiere Rhapsodie was to test the player's ability to play transposed A clarinet parts on the Bb instrument (since it was written as an exam piece). The parts in B major really look like transposed A clarinet parts. (since B major on Bb Clarinet is C major on an A)
Post Edited (2008-08-29 21:04)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2008-08-30 17:15
Another option is to play the entire passage on D clarinet. I have a Finale part for the passage in question on D clarinet.
One can't play the entire passage on Eb because there would be a low Eb on Eb clarinet (if memory serves).
That makes the run up to a high A.
Plus there is 8 measures to switch to D clarinet (if memory serves).
----------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-08-31 09:44
The Royal Philharmonia recorded this work, and the clarinet player left out a bunch of semiquavers (16ths) here and there- in several bars you just get a bar of quavers (8ths) instead of all the black stuff. Shameful, they should be ashamed- yet none of the record reviewers even mentioned it.
dn
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Author: IanH
Date: 2008-08-31 10:13
I've done this piece before and transposed the middle section for A clarinet too. D seems easier to find than C#. I found a recording of a South American orchestra playing it (can't remember details) and the clarinettist gets so behind at the end he gives up! I managed it pretty well (I think) some years ago, but when it came up again and I was too busy to practise I let my co-principal player play it. Nerves got the better of him, he messed up, resigned and I believe he's still on anti-depressants...... If it comes up again I'll retire!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-31 19:48
AZRobert 1 wrote:
> The score is for "C" clarinet
Actually, technically speaking, that is not correct. The score is a "C Score," where all instruments are written at concert pitch, regardless of what the actual instrument is pitched at.
I borrowed a copy of the score to look at, and on this C Score, there is a low (fourth leger line) "D" that appears in one place in the 1st clarinet part, which would be impossible to play on a "C" clarinet, but would certainly be posible on a Bb or A instrument (because it would transpose to a low "E" or low "F").
So even if you play the high parts on a "C," "D," or "Eb" clarinet, you have to switch to a Bb or A to play this one passage. (Or have the 2nd chair play it, I guess)
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