 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dutch Clarinettist
Date: 2008-08-29 06:32
Hello everyone,
How do you play very fast and legato from high c to the highest c (upstairs and downstairs)? Witch key-combinations do you use? Has anyone suggestions? I play french system.
Thank you very much for helping me!
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2008-08-29 16:33
If you don't need to change partials legato becomes easier.
An overlooked and very nice fingering for altissimo G is in the 5th partial, fingered like E (first line) + the lowest trill key to raise the pitch a bit.
You'll have to work at it a bit in oral cavity and amount of jut of the chin (ie placement of the fulcrum), but it is conceivable to play it chromatically up to C with the fingerings for upper chalameaux (plus lowest side key) E F (both with register) F# G G# A (last 4 without register and may need lowest 2 side keys to raise pitch). But don't expect to have the volumn less than a forte. For that you'll need to go to the 7th or 9 partials.
In the standard literature, the only passage I recall needing to high C is one of Wagner's operas (which one escapes me at the moment). Is that what you're playing?
Vann Joe
(amateur)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-08-29 20:49
Everyone uses a different combination of fingerings because of the way they voice the high notes and different models of instruments and mouthpieces. The best advise I can give you is to get a good fingering chart, experiment with the various fingerings, learn at least a few for each note, more then that for some, and start practice scales etc. in that register. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-01 14:11
clarnibass wrote:
>> Play it slowly, then do the same but move your fingers faster >>
I know you were joking, but actually, no.
Test question for BBoard members: Why not?
Tony
Post Edited (2008-09-01 16:40)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-09-01 18:49
Just moving your fingers faster will not attend to specific problem areas with the scale. It might even accentuate the uneveness. Look for the problem areas and try to avoid rushing when approaching these areas. I would practice 50 mph and slow to 40mph at the problem area. If you have big problems I know of some excellent auto repair shops. In addition there is the approach of playing more frequently and not faster. Good luck with this.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-09-01 18:55
> I would practice 50 mph and slow to 40mph at the problem area.
Don't try that in a 35 mph zone... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-01 22:04
I wrote:
>> Test question for BBoard members: WHY NOT [practise it slowly and then move your fingers faster]? >>
Well, John was close to the answer, but...no other takers??? C'm'on, guys! Opportunity to think for yourselves here; forget, just for a moment, that you can't (AFAIK) read the answer in Bonade, or Russianoff, or Mazzeo, or.....or Etheridge, or.....;-)
Tony
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-09-01 22:10
It's not the connections between the notes that need speeding up (although you have to practice until you get it right every time without effort), it's the amount of time you spend on the notes that need to be shortened. If you aren't practicing moving your fingers fast when you are practicing slowly, you are not practicing the same passage (the same movements). Is that what you're thinking, Tony?
Post Edited (2008-09-01 22:15)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-01 23:51
Let me take a stab at this. It's not how fast the fingers move, but how soon the beginning of one finger movement (or the end, if you're covering holes) is followed by the beginning of the next finger movement. You can play a really fast scale with slow-moving fingers as long as the beginning of one finger movement is soon followed by the beginning of the next.
In short, it's the phase of the fingers that matters, not the speed.
Post Edited (2008-09-02 00:15)
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Author: Simon
Date: 2008-09-02 00:36
mrn wrote:
"In short, it's the phase of the fingers that matters, not the speed."
Can you please elaborate on this, are there any exercises that one can do, I have had the same problem for a long time with all notes when it comes to speed.
In other threads I remember reading about the combination of tounging and the speed of fingers.
Simon
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-02 01:44
mrn wrote:
>> You can play a really fast scale with slow-moving fingers as long as the beginning of one finger movement is soon followed by the beginning of the next. In short, it's the phase of the fingers that matters, not the speed.>>
Yes. It's easy to see this if you think about an F major scale in the lower register. There, NO finger has to move faster in order to play the scale faster. All that happens is that each finger begins to move SOONER. All the fingers can move at exactly the same speed -- up to the limiting case when the scale is infinitely fast, and all the fingers lift (slowly if you want) at exactly the same moment.
So, I find that this is the psychological key to playing fast passages, rather than what vin wrote. Because, it divides finger movements into two categories -- (a) those that need to be fast, because the finger needs to move again to produce the next note but one (as in a trill) or (b) those that can be slow, because the finger is uninvolved in the playing of the next note but one (as in the ascending F major scale in the low register).
This further divides the passage into a number of relaxed, fluid movements joined by precise, poised transitions, which you can practise independently.
Of course, you can be unlucky, and have to play a passage that consists almost entirely of these transitions. Then, it's extremely difficult to play the passage fast:-(
So, turning to the case of this chromatic scale from C'' to C''', the most 'fluid' finger sequence is the best, even if some notes are of slightly dubious intonation. For me, I find that is (speaker key and thumb on throughout, and other keys labelled according to the notes they generate in the chalumeau):
C o o o / o o o
C# o x x / x x o
D o x x / x o o
D# o x x / x o o plus B sliver key
E o x x / o o o
F o x x / o o o plus LH C# key
F# o x o / o o o
G o x o / x o o (an alternative to RH1 would be Eb trill key, slightly less fluid, though)
G# o x x / x x x plus RH F# key
A o x x / o o o
A# x x x / x x x plus LH F key and RH Ab key
B x x o / x x o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
C x o o / x o o plus LH F key and RH Ab key
I've divided the run at G, because that's a pivotal note, and a rather unusual and even resistant fingering, related to the much better speaking, and very useful:
G x o o / x o o
...which is part of the solution to many problematic high passages, as it involves no added little fingers, and so can serve as a pivot between notes that DO involve those fingers. (I haven't used it here, though, because it would involve a non-fluid flip between LH1 and LH2.) The rest of the fingerings are pretty standard, but where they've been changed the idea is to mimic the smooth pulling off of fingers that Vann Joe was after in his idea of using the higher partials of lower notes. (In fact, if I were doing that, I'd start off with the C played as an overblown chalumeau Ab rather than an overblown chalumeau E, and then proceed as above; but the move from C to C# using the standard fingering counts as fluid because it's right at the beginning, so I found that it wasn't necessary.)
I used my 'three-note exercise':
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=218262&t=218262
....on the notes F#, G, G# in order to learn the transition between the two halves, and found that that worked well -- as it very often does, I'm pleased to say:-)
Tony
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-09-02 09:55
another component of "speed" is how high your fingers are off of the keywork.
Frankly, i've seen some peoples fingers so high off the keywork that they could turn the page (over exaggeration)
But you need to have your fingers at a point above the holes where it is not affecting tone. This will also minimize the distance your fingers have to travel, thus you can also play faster.
And as mentioned, being smooth is the key. Have you seen videos of orchestra players, even a video of Ridenour and his mpc product. Watch his fingers as he plays. Looks like a nice smooth action as he plays.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-09-02 14:16
stevesklar wrote:
>> another component of "speed" is how high your fingers are off of the keywork...you need to have your fingers at a point above the holes where it is not affecting tone. This will also minimize the distance your fingers have to travel, thus you can also play faster.>>
I'd say that 'how high your fingers are off the keywork' is not necessarily a well-defined quantity. SOME fingers may need to stay close to the keywork, true; but others, in the interest of generating fluid general hand movement, may be allowed to depart farther.
Consider the rapid F major chalumeau scale. This is perhaps best executed by 'peeling off' right and left hands in turn, by wrist rotation. The attempt to minimise finger movement blocks your doing that, and can often lead to unnecessary oppositions in the muscle systems that control finger movements, in the end acting to limit rather than increase speed.
In general, the bits of a passage that work with 'slow fingers' allow larger departures from the instrument, whereas the bits that require 'fast fingers' work best when departures are small. Each case should be considered on its merits.
Tony
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-03 00:30
I think a lot of assumptions are made re finger lifting height. I do not accept that higher automatically means slower playing.
An interesting experiment:
See how fast you can tap on a surface, with your finger lifting say 2 cm. Now try with that same finger lifting only 2 mm. For me, the latter is a lot slower.
And ironically, moving my whole wrist up and down, rather than just the finger, is faster than either of the above.
But I guess we are all different. (On another forum a member stated he can move his tongue in and out faster than he can up and down; hence in-out tonguing.)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-09-04 06:44
From Tony's explanation: "I've divided the run at G, because that's a pivotal note"
That's what I've been calling the "3rd break". Consistent, really smooth crossings remain a problem for me, unless I extend the pattern going up by use of a side key fingering for G. However, as mentioned, in many contexts that provokes worse transitions.
Thanks for the fingerings, Tony. They seem more natural than what I've been using. Not sure my neighbors will agree, here at 2:39 a.m.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-04 07:34
I checked again what I originally wrote and it turned out I remembered something wrong, so edited my post.
Post Edited (2008-09-04 09:30)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-09-04 16:40
Gordon wrote:
<<See how fast you can tap on a surface, with your finger lifting say 2 cm. Now try with that same finger lifting only 2 mm. For me, the latter is a lot slower.>>
And takes a lot more effort. Stopping the finger motion at a short distance requires you to apply not only a significant force to begin the finger motion but also a significant force to end it.
Or as one of the great teachers of the English school would say:
Every finger perseveres in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight forward, except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by force impressed.
You won't find that in Bonade, either, AFAIK. 
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