 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-08-03 00:28
What are most student and intermediate clarinet keys made of? I see keys advertised as nickel plated, but some of the keys seem to stay shiny a lot longer than others. And what are they UNDERNEATH the plating?
Let's take the more recent Selmer Signet line as an example. Underneath the plating, are they "pot metal," or steel, brass, or what? Why do Signet keys stay shiny (if they are nickel plated), when all nickel keys on older clarinets don't stay shiny?
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-08-03 04:21
Most clarinet keys are made of German silver. In case you don't know what that is, it's a nickel and copper combination, sometimes including zinc or other metals too (I'm not an expert). The exact alloy can be different so not all keys made of this are the same. Some keys might have something between the key metal and the plating, but I think some have nickel (or any) plating directly on them. The quality of the plating can vary between platers and sometimes for the same plater too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-08-03 13:52
Nickel stays shiny quite well unless it is subject to certain contaminants. I once made wire puzzles and had them nickel plated. They turned dull, off-white and rough overnight when subject to polyurethane varnish fumes.
There is reasonable evidence that some nickel plated keys tarnish quickly because of vapours given off by some material used in making the case.
Nickel tarnish is usually quite difficult to remove.
On better clarinets, the keys are more often SILVER plated. Barring these agents which quickly tarnish nickel, silver generally tarnishes quicker than nickel. The main tarnishing agent for silver is sulphurous material either in the air or on the player's skin. They are common in our environment. But silver tarnish is generally easier to remove.
The "German silver" that Clarnibass mentions is also called "nickel silver" or (more correctly) cupronickel. The term "nickel silver" is sometimes corrupted to "nickel". No keys are solid nickel though.
On a very few models, perhaps because of a shortage of copper during war time, the base metals of the keys is "pot metal", an inferior alloy with a lower melting point, and that breaks very easily when bent, and cannot be silver-soldered. Boosey & Hawkes Regent clarinets had keys like this.
On some very low quality clarinets you may find brass keys, plated with silver or nickel. But brass keys are the norm for saxophones.
I have never met steel keys, but the hinge rods and pivot rods are normally steel or stainless steel.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bandfreak
Date: 2008-08-04 14:07
On a funny note, my very first clarinet was a piece of ____, you fill it in, that they somehow managed to nickel plate plastic keywork. I found this out when pieces began to break off. Sorry this is off topic I just think it's a funny story about nickel plating.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-08-04 22:03
Yanagisawa is not junk. One or two parts are sometimes plated plastic.
Outstanding motor vehicles, like most things we buy today, have many plastic parts. In many cases plastic is a better material than metal.
Like metal, plastics are by no means all the same. And you cannot tell the quality just by looking or touching.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-08-04 22:13
Gordon wrote: "On some very low quality clarinets you may find brass keys, plated with silver or nickel. But brass keys are the norm for saxophones."
I'm sure you're right, but why the difference? And what is used on flutes and oboes and bassoons?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-08-04 22:27
I have not yet figured out what the Chinese are using for their keys, it mostly looks like poorly plated pewter because of the uneven surface. Almost all of the well made clarinets use the nickle silver as Gordon and clarnibass mentioned and that's both durable and fairly inflexible. If the keys are totally inflexible they are rather difficult to adjust but they can't be overly flexible or the action becomes too soft and mushy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-08-05 09:50
"I'm sure you're right, but why the difference?"
I really don't know. Cupro-nickel is a fair bit stronger than brass, and a fair bit more expensive and hard on tools, I suppose.
Perhaps there is just no point in having that strength and rigidity in sax mechanism, because the mechanism is mounted on posts which are mounted on very flimsy metal. There's no point in being stronger than the archilles heel.
Student flute keys are all cupronickel. Professional ones are typically silver (usually "sterling)", but sometimes gold.
Oboe keys are cupronickel or silver. (Oboes are not as up themselves as flutes get :-)
Bassoon keys: Cupronickel (or brass?)
"I have not yet figured out what the Chinese are using for their keys, it mostly looks like poorly plated pewter because of the uneven surface."
Perhaps they are (roughly) cast, reather than being (for strength) cold forged.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-08-05 12:27
The plating on the Chinese plastic keys I've seen on flea market clarinets doesn't seem to be either nickel or silver. It's that very shiny stuff often used in children's jewelry. It may be plastic rather than metal and, whatever it is, it's very poorly bonded to the white plastic keys, which are, themselves, extremely brittle. The coating flakes off so easily that there's usually some metallic "dandruff" under the clarinets in their cases. I wonder whether anybody has tested that plating for lead.
The Chinese clarinets I've seen outdoors have not been the improved models recently introduced, by the way. The ones I'm talking about have been the first generation no-names with the red plastic key pads (utter garbage!--often not even a full set of keys) and the second generation that looks a little bit more plausible, with white plastic pads (but still crummy, with loose, ill-fitting keys). Nobody who knows anything about clarinets would mistake one of these clarinet-shaped objects for anything worth buying, but they probably fool the innocent, non-musician parents of young beginners.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-05 13:58
"The Chinese clarinets I've seen outdoors have not been the improved models recently introduced, by the way. The ones I'm talking about have been the first generation no-names with the red plastic key pads (utter garbage!--often not even a full set of keys)"
These sound more like the old Boosey&Co Albert system copies from India with the red pads and red threadded tenons, and best not entertained.
"The plating on the Chinese plastic keys I've seen on flea market clarinets doesn't seem to be either nickel or silver."
Could it be chrome plate? That has a very cheap look to it (very bright shine with a blueish tinge when compared to nickel plate which looks more yellow in comparison) and flakes off if not adhered well. Look at the new Chinese bassoons with the long bells (Laval etc.) for an idea as these have chrome plated keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-08-06 14:55
A little off the subject, but my first metal clarinet was chromium plated, keys included. Never tarnished, cracked, or peeled. Greville Paris on bell.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-06 21:17
Just wondering how you knew it was Chrome.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-08-25 19:41
Wow, great thread.
Thanks for all the information!
I only have one more question: What does "power forged" refer to, such as the keys on the Ridenour Lyrique? Is that the same thing as cold forged?
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-25 20:26
It's the same as drop forged where key pieces (such as touch pieces) are stamped out of thick metal bar or sheet to their final shape under very high pressure, and with a bit of tidying up (smoothing out the rough edges that may be left) they're ready to be mounted.
Key arms can be stamped out in a similar manner that a hole punch is used to make holes in paper, though now these components can be milled out from sheet metal or spark eroded to their correct shape. The last two ways are better as if the piece needs to be altered, it's a case of editing the computer programme that controls the CNC machine or spark eroding equipment. Chadash's website showed key pieces formed by spark erosion.
Key cups can also be stamped from thin sheet metal, eg. Yamaha key cups are stamped instead of being turned as they once were. This also saves on the amount of waste compared to turned pad cups.
Though it's more common nowadays to have most key pieces, either singular touch pieces or even whole keys including cups, arms, touches and key barrels in one piece cast from various alloys (nickel silver, brass or bronze) using the lost wax process.
You'll see key pieces being power forged in this video just after 00:3:10: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPWKD-3q1JU
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-08-25 20:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-26 21:31
"It's the same as drop forged where key pieces (such as touch pieces) are stamped out of thick metal bar or sheet to their final shape under very high pressure,"
Afraid I don't agree completely. "Power Forged" only has meaning to the outfit that uses the term. It could imply Drop Forged, or it could imply Press Forged.....or something else.
All forging operations require "power". In fact I can't think of a metal processing operation that doesn't require power.....mechanical, electrical or other.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-08-26 22:45
That thread reminded me of this one. About forging, bending, and the material underneath.
What fascinates me is that plated keywork can be bent (within reason) without destroying the plating. Quite unlike bending a cake with icing on top.
Duh. Now I'm hungry.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan Young
Date: 2008-08-27 04:09
The funny thing about crappy clarinets is that i made first chair in my district, all of southern Illinois, my eighth grade year with a $100 not to be named online auction site clarinet... the keys were tarnished beyond belief after 7 months but played well when i needed it
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
