 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2008-07-15 01:20
All the music I have for my bass clarinet is written in treble clef, but the sound is an octave lower than written. Is the low C (Eb model, three fingers left hand) referred to as C3 or C4 ? Many thanks.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-15 02:34
I would think it would be C3 because it sounds an octave lower then the C4 shown in the icon above. If the above is C4 for the clarinet, it can't also be C4 for the bass clarinet. It should be how it sounds not what's written. Am I wrong? ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (Listen to a little Mozart, live performance)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-15 02:48
Hello Ed,
I agree with you on principle. But shouldn't bass clarinet music be written in bass clef?
I guess the question is: if you were speaking about the printed music (or the fingering you wanted to discuss) how would you define it?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-07-15 03:06
Ed Palanker wrote:
> I would think it would be C3 because it sounds an octave lower
> then the C4 shown in the icon above.
Correct. It would be a C3. Any note can be written in any clef, given enough ledger lines ...
Piano music where a written C4 sounded a C3 would have 8vb written above it if it was written in treble clef.
The numbers are to disambiguate the true pitch (other than the fact that we are a transposing instrument on top of that ...)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-15 04:52
>> shouldn't bass clarinet music be written in bass clef?
Why? I know some music for bass clarinet is written in bass clef (although I've never played and probably will never play this music) but I can't think of any reason to write it in bass if there is a choice.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-07-15 12:19
I write my music for bass clarinet in treble clef because it's a well-established tradition now, and I think that's the way most bass clarinet players learn to read (and expect and prefer to read) their music. While many bass clarinet players (and probably all professional bass clarinet players) learn to read bass clef, they *all* know how to read treble clef, so it's a safe bet for a composer who wants to avoid throwing up unnecessary barriers. I've got six scores that include bass clarinet on the sibelius.com website right now. So far, not one person has asked me for a bass clef part for bass clarinet.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-15 12:28
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't communicate my point very well.
No, I don't WANT all the bass clarinet music written in the bass clef. I've learned most of it (as we all have) in treble. However the instrument sounds down one octave from the soprano counterpart...we really should be printed in bass so that the written note reflects the sounding note. Now let's not get hung up on this!
My point is the use of the numerical suffix to determine which octave of the music or instrument we wish to discuss is based on the printed music. (And is that even something we're going to agree on?) Yes, most of us realize that the bass sounds down the octave.
If we're attempting to discuss a fingering in a passage in ms. 37 of excerpt XXX are you going to determine the numerical suffix based on what the music says or how the instrument sounds?
James
PS...I should have added that it makes sense to me to discuss the written pitch.
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-07-15 12:55)
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Author: John25
Date: 2008-07-15 12:57
Surely the criterion is what is printed, not what sound will come out. Three fingers left hand is C4 on whatever size of clarinet. Otherwise, how do we describe the notes played by a basset-horn or an Eb clarinet?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-15 13:09
John, in that case it must be determined whether we are talking about the written note or the actual sounding note. If it is the written note, regardless of what it sounds like than you are correct, otherwise it is the sounding note that is correct. I'm assuming it is the sounding note. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-07-15 13:12
The notation and the sound the instrument produces are two different critters. I seem to recall that older music written for the Bass clarinet sometimes had the "8" under the treble clef to imply that it was actually sounding an octave below the written notation.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-15 13:18
>> we really should be printed in bass so that the written note
>> reflects the sounding note. Now let's not get hung up on this
But it doesn't reflect the sounding note.... because it's a transposed instrument. Should guitar and contrabass change how they are written too? In that case, why bother with transposition at all? Why is an octave transposition "wrong" but one tone (or a 3rd, or 6th, in case of Eb soprano or alto clarinet, etc.) transpsition is ok? Actually the only situation bass clef makes sense to me is if there is a long area with a lot of notes with extra lines below the staff (thinking about low C here), though I'd actually prefer treble clef in that situation too because once you get used to it those low notes are easy in treble clef anyway. So the only situation I think someone should use bass clef for bass clarinet is if the music (for whatever reason) is already written that way and it doesn't make sense to rewrite it in treble clef.
>> John, in that case it must be determined whether we are talking about
>> the written note or the actual sounding note. If it is the written note,
>> regardless of what it sounds like than you are correct, otherwise it is
>> the sounding note that is correct. I'm assuming it is the sounding note
John's description makes the most sense to me and I've always assumed that's how it was. If it's the sounding note, and someone asks a question about C4 on alto clarinet, are you going to assume they are actually talking about G on the alto (concert Bb)?!
Post Edited (2008-07-15 13:22)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-15 15:20
Never did I mean to infer that writing in treble clef is wrong. It isn't "right" either. I would infinitely prefer if we were not (and there weren't any) transposing instruments.
I did imply that writing for the instrument the way it actually sounds makes far more sense.
"So the only situation I think someone should use bass clef for bass clarinet is if the music (for whatever reason) is already written that way and it doesn't make sense to rewrite it in treble clef."
The "for whatever reason" are those composers who understood how to write for the bass clarinet in the first place!
"Two major types of notation are in use today: In the French, bass clef section are read traditionally, while treble clef sections are fingered like the clarinet, thus sounding one octave lower. In the German system, bass clef segments are also read traditionally, while the treble clef sections are played one octave higher than in the French."
-Michael Drapkin, Symphonic Repertoire for the Bass Clarinet
The only standard appears to be "know how the composer meant for you to read their music". To exacerbate the issue (in one case), Drapkin goes on to retell how Stravinsky wrote the same passage in two different ways in Petroushka.
Speaking specifically to the topic of this thread it would appear than when discussing any pitch it is necessary to point out whether you mean written or sounding pitch. Therefore: "in ms 37 of excerpt XXX the WRITTEN C5..."
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: george
Date: 2008-07-15 15:25
The best thing I've learned from this thread is a new word:
disambiguate
Thanks, Mark!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-07-15 15:41
IMHO, bass clarinet parts should be notated using the "octave dropping" treble clef that is commonly used for notating tenor parts in vocal scores. It looks like a regular treble clef, except that there is a small "8" printed below the clef, which means that the part sounds an octave below what is written. That way, you get the best of both worlds--theoretical purity and easy sight reading.
In the choral music universe, this "octave dropping" treble clef is so popular that it is commonly referred to as "tenor clef," since for vocal music it has effectively displaced the real "tenor clef" you still sometimes see on basoon and trombone parts.
(I just now realized somebody else mentioned this clef in a previous post--so apparently people do use it for bass clarinet parts!)
I think this discussion demonstrates why words such as "chalumeau," "clarion," and "altissimo" are still in the lexicon. When talking about an actual sounding pitch, scientific pitch notation is great, but when talking about a fingering on an instrument, it's much clearer to refer to register names. If I tell you to "finger an upper clarion c" there is no ambiguity because the instruction is relative to the instrument in question and it is clear what the frame of reference is. If I tell you to play C6, on the other hand, I might be asking you to play an altissimo D (on a Bb soprano clarinet).
To make matters more confusing, some people (Tom Ridenour in his fingering book, for example) call "upper clarion c" C3! This actually makes a lot of sense when you consider that "C4" (middle C) is called that because it is the 4th "C" on a piano keyboard. "Upper clarion c" is the third "C" on a clarinet fingering chart. Of course, if somebody writes down "C3," it's hard to tell whether that's relative to a piano keyboard (scientific pitch notation in concert pitch), relative to a clarinet fingering chart, or relative to an octave-transposed fingering chart.
Post Edited (2008-07-15 16:13)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-15 17:44
>> I would infinitely prefer if we were not (and
>> there weren't any) transposing instruments.
I think the idea of transposing instruments is very good. I definitely think it's better than learning new fingerings for each member of the family (regardless of whether the transposition is an octave or any interval).
>> The "for whatever reason" are those composers
>> who understood how to write for the bass clarinet
>> in the first place!
Maybe, but I still don't see any reason to write in bass clef for bass clarinet. I gave my reasons why treble clef makes more sense. I am interested in reasons why bass clef makes more sense that are more important. The reason that it's a tone difference instead of octave plus tone makes no sense to me.
>> The only standard appears to be "know how the
>> composer meant for you to read their music".
If you want to play music that is already written in bass clef than you have no choice but to be able to read it (or transponse it to treble clef). But when I'm playing something I hope it's written in the way that is most comfortable, and when I write parts I make sure they are written in the most comfortable way to read.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-15 18:07
"I think the idea of transposing instruments is very good. I definitely think it's better than learning new fingerings for each member of the family (regardless of whether the transposition is an octave or any interval)."
An excellent point that gave me pause as I was thinking about the world without transposition. As much as it appears to be a hassle (and for some it would be) I imagine that this wouldn't be as difficult as it seems. When I play saxophone I don't become confused about reading the music, despite the fact that the finger patterns are similar and the note reading is different. (And as far as uncomfortable keys go you don't hear flautists and violinists bemoaning the lack of instruments in B.)
Certainly there are those who are extremely comfortable with all the transpositions that we need to be able to do and can do so on sight. When I was young I could read A parts on Bb clarinet relatively easily. Now I don't...I have an A clarinet.
"I am interested in reasons why bass clef makes more sense that are more important [then my reasons for staying in treble clef]."
Because we would be reading the notes in the octave that they sound. (Of course this will never change...too many clarinetists trained, too much music printed, no real reason to!).
I have never stated that we should change from what already exists. I described what would have made more sense from the beginning (if we could go back and change it). Do you believe that it's easier for bass clarinetists to have to accommodate differences based on the country of origin and composer/publisher's intentions? Wouldn't one system have been simpler? Why shouldn't the bass clarinet be written in its' sounding pitches when most instruments ARE given their sounding pitches?
If you rewrite or arrange music that is uncomfortably written for you that is the solution that works for you (and many!). I read bass clef now because I play in bass clef (along with treble).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-07-15 19:14
Another reason for writing Bass Clarinet music at least partially in bass clef:
A large amount of music for bass clarinet is in ledger lines beneath the staff when it is written in treble clef. When placed in bass clef, even a low c would only be two ledger lines below. An there are many solo pieces that stretch into the altissimo register. If the higher parts were written it treble clef at pitch (well, a tone off, but who's counting?) then these altissimo part would mostly stay in the staff. In fact, long clarion C would be written middle c, making clarion and altissimo notes easier to read.
I have come to prefer reading in bass/treble clef as opposed to reading just treble, as it is a more concise method of writing parts, and makes them more aesthetically pleasing IMO.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-16 03:20
There are three types of writing for the bass clarinet. The French way, everything in treble clef sounding an octave lower then written, the German way, in bass clef sounding in the octave it’s written making it necessary to play up an octave when it goes to the treble clef and the third way, the wrong way when a composer writes in the bass clef and goes in and out of the treble clef but does not want you to go up an octave. I prefer one of the first two ways so I know what the composer wanted instead of having to guess. Some great composers never understood it, that includes Stravinsky and Rachmaninoff. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-16 04:57
>> Because we would be reading the notes in the octave that they sound.
OK, it's just that this reason seems very unimportant to me compared with the advantages of the treble clef.
>> When I play saxophone I don't become confused about reading the music
For someone who plays let's say the four main clarinets and the four main saxophones, they would have to learn eight sets of fingerings!
>> An excellent point that gave me pause as I was thinking about
>> the world without transposition. As much as it appears to be a
>> hassle (and for some it would be) I imagine that this wouldn't
>> be as difficult as it seems.
It doesn't have to be as difficult as it seems, but only more difficult than the system of transposing instrument. It is compared with something specific, not how difficult it is in general.
>> I have never stated that we should change from what already exists.
>> I described what would have made more sense from the beginning
I don' agree with this either. I think in the beginning this is mostly how it was (i.e. the first clarinet probaly wasn't written in transposition) and people just found better ideas since then.
>> If you rewrite or arrange music that is uncomfortably
>> written for you that is the solution that works for you
I didn't say that. Actually I've never done that. I was talking about writing parts for others (not rewriting parts, but writing new parts/music).
>> Another reason for writing Bass Clarinet music at least partially in bass clef:
>> A large amount of music for bass clarinet is in ledger lines beneath the
>> staff when it is written in treble clef.
As I mentioned, this is IMO very easy to learn, even for a low C instrument, and for low Eb it's just as easy as soprano clarinet.
>> An there are many solo pieces that stretch into the altissimo
>> register. If the higher parts were written it treble clef at pitch
>> (well, a tone off, but who's counting?) then these altissimo part
>> would mostly stay in the staff.
But you read that a lot in soprano clarinet music anyway. For the highest notes it's common to write an octave down. Sure this isn't perfect, but IME it's nothing compared with learning a new set of fingering or a new clef.
I accept that some people might prefer reading in both bass and treble clef. My experience is that treble clef makes much more sense, from my own experience and also from noticing how easy or hard it is for many people to learn different things about reading music, which is something I notice a lot in general (because I have music written for me a lot and also I write music for others).
Nitai
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Author: timg
Date: 2008-07-16 21:28
Middle-C is always C4, whether written or played. So a written middle-C would be referred to as C4, even if it sounds as something else when played on a transposing instrument.
A Bb soprano transposes by a major second, or one tone. So in scientific pitch notation a written C4 and sounds as a Bb3.
Likewise a Bb bass clarinet transposes by a major ninth, or seven tones. So written C4 sounds as Bb2 on a bass.
That's the whole point of transposing instruments: the same written note uses the same fingerings. The composer does the transposition, not the performer.
-Tim
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-17 02:25
Timg, good point. It seems true that if you are referring to the "written" note as opposed to the "sounded" note you are correct. ESP
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Author: John25
Date: 2008-07-17 21:07
Could I sum up by saying that it all depends upon whom you are talking to (or writing to). If you are talking to a clarinet player, C4 is always three fingers left hand, no matter whiat size of clarinet you are talking about. If you are talking to anyone else (e.g. to an oboe player) and say, "My C4 is a bit flat" you mean two fingers lefthand (in other words the note sounded).
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Author: John25
Date: 2008-07-17 21:11
Sorry - I should have said "talking to an oboe player and you are playing a Bb clarinet"
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