 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-05-13 19:40
For those of you who are familiar with Debussy's Premiere Rhapsodie, what does the phrase "doux et penetrant" mean in the context of the piece?
Literally it means "soft and penetrating," but I'm not sure what that really means in terms of how to play the passage (first page, after the piano starts playing 3-against-2). A Google search revealed that Debussy apparently used this phrase in a number of his pieces, so it's apparently some kind of Debussy idiom. It seems kind of contradictory to me though, from the standpoint of a literal translation.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Michael
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-13 19:54
I think doux can also meet "sweet" as in dolce.
I never saw a contradiction in this. You need to play softly and sweetly, but with an intense, focused tone which carries the melody above the rocking piano accompaniment. If you let the tone spread out and become airy then it gets lost in the piano sound.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-05-13 21:10
I was always told that it meant play softly but still be able to project through the orchestral accompaniment.
Post Edited (2008-05-14 15:05)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-05-13 21:13
He originally wrote it for clarinet/piano as a contest piece for the Paris Conservatory and only later was it orchestrated. (Please see the Masterclass in The Clarinet periodical from May/June 1998). Hopefully there are some additional insights in this thread from the "keepers" section of this bboard:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=877&t=877
At rehearsal #1 the instruction to play "doux et penetrant" (sweet and penetrating) is suggestive of the intense and colorful french clarinet sound of the day. An easily projected sound in pp seems to be the sonority Debussy probably envisioned.
One only has to listen to the early recorded examples of Hamelin, LeFevre, Cahuzac, and Bonade to understand this kind of luminosity. An instrumental set-up on which one is capable of producing a similarly colorful, vibrant and sweet tonal quality is essential in conveying the expressive qualities of this music.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-05-13 22:12)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-13 22:35
As I had always thought that "Soft and penetrating" can be like something heard from a distance but would be loud from close up. This is a bad example for the Rhapsodie, but a trumpet from a distance is soft but the intensity is still there.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-05-15 14:45
this came up in Russel Dagon's Master Class at ClarinetFest in Vancouver last year.
He asked the audience to translate penetrant during his coaching of 2nd place winner Rachel Athis in one of the contests.
While coaching Ms Rachel Athis in the Rhapsody, he asked the audience what "penetrant" meant to them.
here's my note of the dialogue
RD: Asks the audience for a translation of the French penetrant.
As an answer, he gets “penetrating.”
RD: if you look harder, you will find a more understandable translation: searching. Searching makes a whole lot more sense in the Rhapsody than penetrating!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2008-05-15 15:33
All my musical groups operate in French and I have worked in French for almost 20 years. Being English and interested in words I become aware over time of the subtle idiomatic differences in the meaning of adjectives that *appear* to have the same meanings in French and English.
Some adjectives have the identical meaning in both languages.
For example, "strident" in French means strident in English. There is no gray zone. However when a native French-speaking conductor uses the French word "penetrant" it rarely means penetrating. It usually means searching.
In everyday French one talks of a penetrating cold, a penetrating odour, a penetrating hand cream, a penetrating look - all equivalents of the English "penetrating".
Yet "searching" is another, more poetic, definition for "penetrant".
When conductors get that far-away look in their eyes and start to use their hands a lot to describe what they want, if they use the word "penetrant" it is, in that context, usually the idiomatic equivalent of the English word "searching".
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts (www.jefferyconcerts.com)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-05-16 10:21
Simon is totally correct in his careful explanation. Actually,to say penetrating is almost exactly incorrect and does the French language a disservice.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-05-16 23:47
Thank you for clearing this up for me. "Searching" makes much more sense to me.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-05-17 11:20
Doux et penetrant (pp) as applied to the Debussy Premiere Rhapsodie.
Perhaps someone can explain the appropriateness of "searching" as a more appropriate substitute for penetrating in the context of this piece - especially since the *musical and historical context* of Debussy's usage of penetrant clearly refers to a musical idiom, not necessarily an everyday usage such as "searching".
Searching for *what?* may be the obvious question. Searching for the sound of the day in which it was written (as has been mentioned before)? Searching as a meaning of simply pursuing some kind of search for search's sake? To vaguely sound as if one is expressing the *character* of "searching"? That seems much too vague in comparison to the alternatively explicit instruction...vagueness and common usage something Debussy scrupulously avoided so as not to be misunderstood.
Searching is a rather vague term by comparison to the characteristically purposeful usage of *musical* instruction by the composer Debussy - who was quite explicit and who's music and instructions were not in the least vague (please refer to the prior thread posted as a link in my earlier post). Penetrating is infinitely more explicit and in context than "searching" in just about every way.
Indeed researching 3 separate reputable and commonly referred to musical dictionaries, all refer to the *musical* usage of the french word penetrant as penetrating (in some form thereof) in each case. Referring to a dictionary of "common" usage of such musical terms hardly seems useful considering the circumstances.
To further address the composer's original intent, am am reminded of Pierre Boulez's direct reference to pp (yet still *penetrant* - penetrating) as an indicator of the french sound of the day - his source being that of Ernest Ansermet who worked with Debussy closely not only on this work but many others at the time of their premiers.
This was enunciated in several Chicago Symphony rehearsals over the years during our many performances of Debussy's works, as well as during our private conversations about the Rhapsodie itself. It seemed the obviously idiomatic application of these explicit instructions.
As if that were not enough, after speaking with our principal flutist about this very subject at our concerts that we are presently playing at Carnegie Hall, a native of France and one of the great interpreters of Debussy, there is no other interpretation of the meaning within it's context that makes nearly as much sense...nor ever has there been before now...extending back almost a century.
He went on to explain that at the beginning of the 20th century, the french wind sound had become rather like the sound of the french orchestral and solo flautando string sound, lacking in substance (which seems to still have a carry-over from that era to this day). His view derived from extensive experience, which seems quite persuasive, is that Debussy's instruction was explicitly a compensatory one in order to instruct adding back the then missing intensity, luminosity and projection need to play sweetly AND penetratingly WITHIN pp - the context of which this instruction makes absolute sense.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-05-17 19:37)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-05-17 13:33
I think all of you - except maybe Simon Aldrich - are making the mistake of trying to find a single English word that captures the precise meaning in this context of the French word "penetrant".
This ignores the fact that many French words have NO precise English equivalent. A speaker of French, reading the word "penetrant", will understand a continuum of meanings. He will not think to himself, 'Does this word mean "penetrating" or does it mean "searching"?' To him, it simply means "penetrant", which has no exact English equivalent.
I think the way to understand the phrase "Doux et penetrant" is to imagine a person who is quiet but insightful - the sort of person who can come into a room and sum up the situation and take control of proceedings, without raising his voice nor making a great song and dance about it. At this point in the piece, the clarinet player has to be the boss, not by overpowering the accompaniment but by asserting a sort of quiet authority over it.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2008-05-17 14:02
A wonderfully compelling and informative post, Greg.
As is so often the case with single words of musical instruction (especially in German) there appears to be a rich and specific history surrounding the word "penetrant", in this case a history and continuance not necessarily carried on by the next generation of conductors and performers.
Simon
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-05-19 20:43
This is very interesting. I think Norbert hit the nail on the head, so to speak, in the sense that there is no one-to-one translation for the word "penetrant." I think this discussion bears that out.
That being said, it seems to me from this discussion (and from reconsulting my Larousse dictionary) that perhaps a good English word to approximate the concept here (which would capture the ideas in both Greg and Simon's posts) would be "focused." I thought I'd toss this idea out here for everyone's consideration--not for the purpose of taking a stand (after all, I asked the question in the first place), but more as a way of testing my understanding and synthesizing everyone's well-thought-out responses into some kind of coherent whole.
I think one way to rephrase what Greg said about the "penetrant" concept in the context of the French sound of the day would be to say that Debussy wanted the player to play softly and sweetly, but with a focused sound.
On the other hand, what Simon had to say about "penetrant" meaning "searching" also seems to me to support this idea of "focus." When I looked back at my Larousse dictionary, I noticed that they put the word "searching" together with the word "keen" as being synonyms. This, coupled with Simon's description of a Francophone conductor having a faraway look made me think that this word, even when used in the sense of "searching," must carry with it the notion of being a focused search--or perhaps "searching" in a deeply contemplative sense. In that sense, "doux et penetrant" would not be some sort of weak, gossamer pp, but a focused, directed pp, consistant with what Greg said. (The oboe solo in mvt. 3 of "La Mer" comes to mind).
Does this sound reasonable?
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-05-20 01:06
If one listens to the recorded examples of clarinetists mentioned from that day, focused and directed in pp (in the MUSICAL sense) seem almost synonymous - they would in any case cause the tone to penetrate rather than to just sit there (how many performances of the "dead" school of clarinet sound have we heard trying to negotiate this piece?).
So "searching" does give an added dimension to the overall meaning but without the initial penetrating bit, it does not by itself clarify to the degree that the word "penetrating" does.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-05-20 16:31
"There can be no dialog about music without music itself".
"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture".
"A picture is worth 10,000 words".
Although incomplete, musical interpretation, instruction, criticism, etc, is spoken of all the time. There are very illuminative things written down about music by the composers themselves that would otherwise leave many aspects interpretive far afield. Ironically, Stravinsky's own writings about his own and others music stand as exemplars.
Some of that sort of communication may be a less perfect form than actual demonstration, but obviously it also can be instructive. While it is not necessarily a good thing to become too much of a literalist, there are many things in music that benefit from context - context of the time regarding language, performance practice, etc, as demonstrated in this discussion.
By all means, go and listen to a favorite recording or recall a favorite performance of this work in order to inform your own opinions.
Gregory Smith
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-05-20 19:32
Thank you so much, Greg Smith, for devoting so much care and attention to my little question--I feel very honored!
I think it's kind of ironic that this has become a discussion about words vs. music, because my original purpose for posting this question was that I have listened to several different recordings of this piece and from the recordings, there seems to be more than one school of thought as to how to play this passage. Some players (Martin Frost is a good example of this) seem to fade into the passage from almost a niente attack, while others (Sabine Meyer, for example) have a clearly discernable attack.
Now, my musical intuition tells me that this note needs to have a discernable attack. Intuition isn't always right, though, and in any event, I was brought up in the school of thought that you cannot make your own interpretation of a piece until you're clearly informed of what the composer had in mind. Thus, I needed to know what "doux et penetrant" means, because that's all I have from Debussy to work with.
So did that mean that you should make your initial attack clearly heard over the accompaniment texture? Did it mean that you should start out "under" the accompaniment and then break through or "penetrate" the accompaniment texture to then be heard? Or did Debussy not really address this issue with his instruction to play "doux et penetrant?" All of this depends on what the words mean in the context of the piece, which is why I am so grateful for the time and attention that the folks here on the board have volunteered to answering my question.
Knowing what Debussy intended his instruction to mean, I can now go back to any recording, listen, and make an informed judgment as to whether I think that player's interpretation fits in with what Debussy intended (doesn't mean I'm going to be "right"--but at least I know better what I am doing). I can also have some idea as to how I can formulate my own interpretation of the piece in a tasteful way without losing sight of the composer's intent as well as listeners' reasonable expectations.
Are the words a substitute for artistic judgment, good taste, and a good ear? Of course not. But at the same time, I think it is very difficult to know what to listen for in a recording without a good understanding of the written instructions in the sheet music, which, of course, requires some knowledge of the context of those instructions to be able to interpret them--especially if, like me, you don't speak much French!
So, although I may say and do a lot of silly things, I don't think this was a silly question for me to ask in the first place, nor do I think this was a fruitless discussion, regardless of what Stravinsky said. Unlike Stravinsky, I can't just drop in on my friend Debussy and ask him for advice.
(Off topic, I noticed the other day when listening to Debussy that there is a little four note figure in the piano part to Premiere Rhapsodie that is note-for-note identical to one of the motives in the Berceuse in Stravinsky's Firebird. Probably just a coincidence, but I thought it was interesting, nonetheless.)
Incidentally, I would be interested in knowing what others think are good reference recordings of the Rhapsodie to listen to (and where I might find them). Thanks!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-20 21:31
mrn- regarding the question of how to play the first note in the passage under discussion, it's important to look at all the details that Debussy gave us in the score. Besides writing "doux et pénétrant" and the dynamic of piano, he also puts a tenuto sign on the first C. What does he mean with this little line? With the 2 against 3 rhythm in the piano, I think it's pretty certain that we should hold this note for it's exact value (so that the next B-flat coincides exactly with the piano left hand). If it's given that the note will be be well held for it's full value, then why put in the extra line on top of it? In this case it must be to give the note some kind of expressive emphasis in it's attack. Perhaps Debussy wanted to avoid exactly that "fade in" from nothing which clarinetists are wont to do. So I would conclude that a discernable attack is called for here, albeit it in a piano, dolce context.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-05-21 03:03
Liquorice--
Thanks! That makes perfect sense!
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-05-21 18:31
Interesting and at the same time amusing discussion for the native french but amateur player that I am...
I wouldn't have connected "searching" as the musical meaning of "penetrant"...
doux et penetrant is to me "dolce" but not fuzzy (or focused)
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-05-21 18:51
My favorite recording of this work is Sabine Meyer..she seems to have really captured the capricious nature of this work. I am referring to the EMI version with Abbaddo.
If anything the sound has to be more focused at a softer level in order to project.
David Dow
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