 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-07 01:08
Attachment: pliers.jpg (22k)
One more topic for the repair side of things.
As for me, I use the "swedging pliers" in the photo. The large black one was purchaced at a Dollar Store, but it is the best thing I have found so far. The small one is good for finishing.
I also have the [expensive] "swedging collet tool" from Ferree's and IT DOES (next to) NOTHING. It is a great concept, but it only pulls the outermost layer of metal molecules to the edge; the grand portion of the tube does not lengthen nor does it significantly shrink. In all the times I have used it and have seen others use it, the initial effect is great and the play comes back in about 1 week of practice, at most. It simply does not put enough force on the tube to be effective (and I have tried tightening it with a monkey wrench.). This is the main reason that the black pliers in the photo work so well. The handle is long enough to provide real pressure to the tube.
----
What tools do you use? Any special techniques or tricks?
Post Edited (2008-05-07 01:12)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-07 06:34
IMO that Ferrees collet tool is one of the best tools Ferrees has ever made.
I use it when I want to tighten a sloppy pivot tube around the rod WITHOUT lengthening the tube.
If you want to lengthen, you have to use a tool that has a shorter length of the tube covered by the tool, as you have found with your large plier tool (which was not designed for swedging but would be fine for some situations)
Unfortunately, when a shorter length is covered by the tool, there is much greater opportunity to make a localised cosmetic mess, with the swedged length conspicuously smaller in diameter than the tube either side .
I think that the new Ferrees multi-hole plier tool is probably a lot better in this respect than what you are using. It contacts more tube, but my guess is that it still does plenty lengthening because of the double lever system it has for closing with great force. Use a lubricant, or you may twist the key.
Post Edited (2008-05-07 06:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-05-07 12:24
I also use the Ferree tool with great success. I did have to learn how to use it, and not be shy in using it though. At first I could not get it to work as advertised. But, as Gordon said, use lubricant on the key AND put some on the threads of the tool too .. and practice using it. you'll get the hang of it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-07 13:07
I find it easiest to use hand held. More control. But I have glued 3 mm composite cork around the entire body for better grip and torque.
One technician at least, has installed a thrust ball bearing under the adjusting knob to reduce friction.
Corrrection, as mentioned several posts later (2008-05-11 08:43):
Sorry. I was thinking of the flute tenon expander.
For the collet swedger, I have forced the hexagonal casing of the tool through a round hole through a length of 32 mm OD ABS rod. This gives me plenty torque.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 08:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-07 13:51
Yes, I have tried gluing a grip of some sort to the outside of the sleeve, but nothing great ever came of it- even the monkey wrench was not much better. Also, it consistently twists the tube and jams up the screw movement. That is something I never have a problem with using pliers. Maybe I have to see someone that really knows how to do it in action, but for me the effects last a week.
Also, I am wondering about shrinking long lengths of tubing. I have been making a lot of keys recently and I get the screw hinge tubes from windcraft and I have to shrink them down to the screw size. Any tricks to this??? As I have been doing it, I just do the normal swedging techniques over the whole tube, and it takes some time. I sometimes put the tube in a bench motor and do the whole thing more quickly, but the portion that was in the chuck becomes useless and must be trashed.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 09:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-08 07:28
"...Also, it consistently twists the tube and jams up the screw movement. That is something I never had a problem with using pliers. Maybe I have to see someone that really knows how to do it in action, but for me the effects last a week...."
What on earth are you doing!
I guess the proper way to shrink a long length of tube is to put the rod inside it and pull the tube through a draw plate. But you will need some rather hefty pulling gear, and anneal the tube first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_plate
Draw plates are expensive.
http://www.shorinternational.com/Drawing.htm
There are variations on the method:
http://www.metalpass.com/metaldoc/paper.aspx?docID=168
http://www.howellmetal.com/HowellMetal/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/tube4.jpg
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-08 09:04
"What on earth are you doing!"
I am following the instructions. For me, I have seen only 2 results from that tool- 1. It has a great effect that lasts 1 week; or, 2. It twists the tube.
As far as the twisting problem- it is very slight and it is easily fixed. I am not talking about a gross malformation, just a slight effect that happens consistantly with this tool.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-08 13:08
Just had a revelation about this tool. I took a look at the Ferree's catalog. The picture shows the tapered part of the shaft to be on the same side as that which the collet sticks out. So, the hexagonal part is adjacent to the handle. Is this the way that all of you are using it??? I *had been* using it with the sleeve the opposite way. Why???
My middle size collet (the one for clarinet size keys) is/was 3 mm LONGER than the other two (which I never used but ordered for "just in case"). So, I got a factory mistake and using the tool as shown in the picture is impossible.
There is also a taper INSIDE as well that I didn't notice before. I realize that this makes a big difference in how it can apply pressure. Could this be why I have had so little success with it??
I will find out soon as I just spent a few minutes sawing the extra length OFF the middle collet. Maybe it will work now...
Post Edited (2008-05-11 09:08)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-08 13:48
Do you mean the collet is too long so when you close the handle all the way the hole at the collet end doesn't close? I just checked the distnaces on mine and if the collet would be longer it would still work but maybe not by 3 mm. If it's a defect tell them for replacement, but you are in Japan I don't know how shipping works there. If they ship the replacement for free, and shipping to USA is as cheap as it is from here, then probably best idea? Another option, if the collet has long enough thread, is just to cut or grind some of the threaded end so it's the correct length.
I've never had any of the problems you mentioned with mine. I don't use the tool to lengthen the tube, other than the very slight lengthening that happens when I tighten the tube around the rod. Still I'm not sure how the results last a week?! That is very strange!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-08 14:47
Yes, the collet is too long and when I turned the handle all the way the sleeve was still LOOSE.
I just today removed the extra length but I have not tested it on a key yet.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 09:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-09 10:48
You've been using it assembled incorrectly?
As the Americans would say, OMG!
Surely what is critical is that the tapered parts contact each other correctly, that the thread goes far enough down the shaft - you could thread it a bit further - and that the threaded end is not too long - you could cut some off.. Unless I am misunderstanding you.
If it is conspicuously incorrectly made, then photograph it beside the good ones, send photos to Ferrees by email, and suggest they send a replacement without you having to return the bad part.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-05-09 11:03
True swedging of anything hollow requires a properly sized mandrel placed in the I.D. of the tube and with proper lubrication.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-10 00:37
"You've been using it assembled incorrectly?"
Yes. Why? Because it was made wrong. I tried to assemble it the way it was in the picture and it would not tighten at all. I generally don't check for defects with Ferree's products because they are usually very well made. This one was a mistake.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-05-10 12:15
"The large black one "
Looks like an electrician's wire stripper/wire cutter tool ......like those used by non-electricians. Surprised you could use it effectively.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-10 13:39
Attachment: 080510_2141~01.jpg (24k)
"Looks like an electrician's wire stripper/wire cutter tool ......like those used by non-electricians. Surprised you could use it effectively."
Yes it is a wire stripper tool. Purchased at a dollar store in New York City. Here is a closer detail of the jaws. It is really a lot like a set of swedging pliers. Also, I am not using it as I got it; I did a little grinding of the jaws to get the contact surfaces to be more square.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-10 14:08
Is that a good OMG or a bad OMG??? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Unless I am missing something, it is just a pair of pliers with oval teeth. It puts pressure on the tube and you turn the key as you squeeze. Ferree's swedging pliers cost much much more. For a dollar, it was worth a shot. I find the results to be great.
Post Edited (2008-05-10 14:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-05-10 14:16
I had no idea what this thread was about...I assumed it was kind of woodwind based 'sledging' from the front row woodwind to the backrows...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-11 03:12
The oval needs to very closely fit the radius of the tube being swedged, otherwise it thins the tube and actually makes the ID larger.
It needs to have the contact areas smooth and polished, or it scrapes and leaves a bad cosmetic result.
There needs to be a reasonably wide contact area with the tube, or the cosmetic result easily becomes pretty. This means you need good leverage and lubricant. This means the pliers need to be fairly robust. The fact that you are twisting keys suggests something is not quite right, either with the tool or with the manner of use.
Which of the several parts of those wire-stripping or lug-crimping pliers do you use? Does the cosmetic result good enough to use on a CUSTOMER'S instrument, or is only suitable on your own? :-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-11 04:09
"The fact that you are twisting keys suggests something is not quite right, either with the tool or with the manner of use."
The problem of the tube twisting is only with the collet tool for me.
"Which part of the pliers??"
If you look at the picture from a few posts ago, I use the jaws that are above the hinge. That is the only part of this tool that I use.
Now here is where it gets crazy... If you look at the swedging pliers in Ferree's catalog you will find they have oval holes. These are also oval.
As far as looks, it looks fine, and more important than looks, it actually does work and the effect lasts. It does not make the inner diameter larger. I am squeezing it.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 05:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-11 04:21
Skygardener, I think there is a misunderstanding. I think Gordon and also I understood twist that the key remains twisted after you finish the swedging. This means the pliers grip the key so hard, that it doesn't slide over it but instead hold it and the key twists between where you hold it with the pliers and the other part. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean you turn (what you call twist) the key inside the pliers, without it remaining twisted after? If that's what you meant, I think it just wasn't clear.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-11 08:37
"...Yes, the collet is too long and when I turned the handle all the way the shaft was still LOOSE...."
It is unclear exactly which part of the collet section is "too long'.
Photos?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-11 08:43
I wrote "...I find it easiest to use hand held. More control. But I have glued 3 mm composite cork around the entire body for better grip and torque.
One technician at least, has installed a thrust ball bearing under the adjusting knob to reduce friction."
Sorry. I was thinking of the flute tenon expander.
For the collet swedger, I have forced the hexagonal casing of the tool through a round hole through a length of 32 mm OD ABS rod. This gives me plenty torque.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 08:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-11 09:18
From Gordon's post- "...Yes, the collet is too long and when I turned the handle all the way the shaft was still LOOSE...."
It is unclear exactly which part of the collet section is "too long'.
--------------
I have rewritten all my posts using the following words-
"Collet"- we all seem to agree on this
"Handle"- The part that the collet screws into.
"Sleeve"- The hexagonal part that goes around the collet.
--------------------
All I was saying is this... The collet was really long. If you assembled the tool in the "normal" way, the collet would screw all the way into the handle and reach the end of the hole BEFORE the jaws of the collet even came in contact with the top of the sleeve. Thus, the collet jaws never tightened. Turning the sleeve upside down allowed it to work (a bit) since the bottom hole of the sleeve is significantly smaller than the top.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-05-11 23:34
So put a washer between the tightening arm and the main body (or make the thread longer on the collet.
BTW, by using it like you have, have you damaged the vital conical part of the collet, by pulling it hard (with a wrench) against a sharp edge?
Post Edited (2008-05-11 23:34)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-12 08:24
There is no damage. I have already cut the collet and I now can assemble it correctly.
Yes, a washer would work but I don't feel that it should be neccessary to fix a new product due to a flaw on the maker's side. Things should work as they are purchaced.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-07-22 04:53
A question that I am battling with right now...
How can one swedge the keys that don't have any tubing on the end of the key?? These being the F/C, the G#/D#, the "sliver" keys, etc.
The best I have heard of (but never done) is to put a bit of soft solder in the tube and drill it out again.
There has to be a better way.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-22 05:12
That depends on what way exactly the key is loose.
If it is end play and you need to lengthen the key, you can solder a thin short rod and drill the hole from the other side. Another possibility that I found works very good is adding extra length of soft tin/silver solder (I have used either 96/4 or 94/6, can't remember) to the key, file it to shape, and drill the hole in it.
If it's that the rod screw is too loose inside the key then I guess the solution with the solder you suggested can work. You can also make a new rod screw with a slightly thicker diameter and fit it to the key (by lapping, etc).
Sometimes rod screws are loose inside the posts (more of an issue with saxophones than clarinets) and one of the way to fix that is with super glue. I'm wondering if the same method can be used for loose keys too. It would be harder to do because the hole in the key is longer, and I'm not sure if it would be good since the key constantly moves over the rod as opposed to posts where the rod doesn't move so no friction to wear the glue.
If you do add solder then you probably only (or mostly) need it in the ends of the key. No matter what method you use, if you add any material remember to add to one side, then drill from the other side, before blocking both ends!
Nitai
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-07-23 13:44
Topic well covered, clarnibass.
Washers are also available, but I find them a thorough nuisance when working on an instrument.
Another possibility is to grind off some of the surplus metal attached to the side of the key barrel, to restore that section to cylindrical, and swedge in the normal way. I have occasionally done that on a cheap clarinet as the cheapest option to carry out. The very narrow swedging plier type tools can be useful; I have removed surplus metal off their tip so that they fit in tighter places.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
