 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-03-13 21:04
Okay, we've had plenty of discussions about the direction the clarinet 'business' is going at the stratospheric level (i.e. major/mid-level symphony orchestras) --- in a nutshell, the orchestras continue to be in financial trouble (as always?) and there is a huge and apparently increasing oversupply of immensely talented players vying for a very few open positions.
We've had less discussion about what the future holds down at my humble level, where existeth the semi-pro/amateur/community group/part-time players. I know how things are going here in the Washington, DC area, but this is just one tiny spot in the world, and not even a typical city. So I was wondering, what's going on out there, non-top-professional clarinetists?
Are there enough places to play, audiences to listen, groups to join? Does anyone care except for our little 'bridge club'?
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Author: Mike Hancock
Date: 2008-03-13 21:26
Well . . . here's a brief comment from the mid-Hudson Valley of New York State. I play in a Community Band at Ulster County Community College and, on my opinion, there seem to be more opportunities for amateurs in Ulster County (on the west side of the river) than in Dutchess County (on the east side of the river where I live). It has been curious to me to observe the apparent differences in opportunities. I suspect that there is a stronger music program in the Ulster County schools than there is in the Dutchess County schools but I can't prove it. It seems to me that a stronger music program would lead to availability of more talented amateurs and thus programs to satisfy their needs. I have found a satisfactory outlet for myself in Ulster County but have not been able to discover a similar outlet in Dutchess County.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-03-13 21:42
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Are there enough places to play, audiences to listen, groups to
> join?
In a word - No
There has definitely been a decline in paid community theater performances, freelance work (both popular and classical pick-up ensembles) and school productions.
The reason why is always linked to money.
Performing grants from the state have been cut way back and musician trust fund gigs have all but dried up. Town budgets have slashed money allocated for hiring performing groups for continuing concert series and outdoor summer concerts. Community theaters are currently performing more plays than musicals due to the expense of hiring musicians, and many of the high schools have even reverted back to piano, bass and drums for their annual musicals.
On a positive note, if you play saxophone, there ARE weekend gigs available in my area, especially in the summer. Our big band continues to stay busy, although certainly not at the same level as the mid 1990's. In the summer, we often have to turn down last minute Saturday or Sunday gigs, since we are already booked in advance.
For those that want to play clarinet for free, there are numerous community bands available.
At last count, within a 25 mile radius, there was a different community band rehearsing each night of the week.
Unfortunately, I've noticed that the audiences for community performances have grown older, and have not been appreciably replaced by younger concert goers.
That is a more difficult problem to solve, with no easy answers.
...GBK
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-03-13 21:49
David:
I suppose our rural county (750 sq. mi., pop. 16,000) is an example of the far reaches of those trenches. We just started our 3rd year with a vibrant little community band of about 30 members.
We are putting on approx. 6 concerts per year and have drawn between 200 - 500 to our concerts, even though at least half the people do not know we exist. We have a lot of fun, but do not anticipating being invited to play at the Kennedy Center.
There are little community bands scattered throughout the hinterlands, although not to the extent, maybe, of 100 years ago when it seems that every community of at least 500 people had a 10 - 12 piece community band (we had close to a dozen in this county around the year 1900).
Eu
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-03-13 23:28
My experience in the LA/OC area...
Not enough *good* groups to play in.
The problem I see is a sort of void for the mid-upper level players -- people who play at a performance-major college-graduate level.
I know a *lot* of people who are really good players, who could competently sit in and hold their own in local professional groups if the need arose. There are very few fulfilling ensembles for such people.
The possibilities that arise most often are:
- Professional gigs, where 40 people want 1 spot
- Mini-gigs... church gigs, musicals, etc., many of which pay half-decently
- Community gigs, volunteer basis
Problem is, there are a lot of good players who can't get the pro gigs. So they play the others. The individual paying gigs, while sometimes fulfilling, often end up in "I swear on my mother's grave, I will never work with these people again" situations, or "it's a paycheck, but I hate every minute," or, slightly better, "the group's OK, it's kinda fun, but not particularly fulfilling."
While high-level community groups do exist, many of them are populated highly with people who are just learning the instrument, who play casually, or who never took the next step to a higher level of musicianship. Which is fine... enjoy the music, great experience, whatever, but it becomes frustrating after a while when you see so much that can be improved on and most of the ensemble is oblivious to the problems. Worse yet, they are sometimes run by people "who like classical music" with little to no musical experience whatsoever, calling all the shots, leading to political messes which really shouldn't exist at that level.
So you end up with people with a lot of experience and talent, with nowhere to play at a high level of musicianship. The disappointment piles up with unfulfilling group after unfulfilling group.
I know a lot of talented musicians that would break down your door to play in a group that really knew what it was doing and aspired to high-quality musical ideals. The good musicians all have day jobs, though, and running a group takes a significant bit of effort. My current situation is in flux... I'll know in the next month or so if I'll be moving out of state for a couple years. If I'm staying local, I'll be starting a group myself.
The oddest part of it all was when I was talking to some of the people in charge of a troubled community orchestra (which I since left, for reasons listed above, and others). They were ecstatic to have found two excellent clarinetists (my friend and I), saying that their group, along with another community orchestra in the area, had trouble finding them. I know for a fact that you can't swing a pencil without hitting a half dozen decent clarinetists around here. My response was, "did you ASK ANYONE??" They replied that it's difficult to find good players who will play for free, and yet there I was, playing for free. I was even more aghast when the bassoonless orchestra suggested that they couldn't find bassoonists AT ALL in the area, willing or otherwise, as I know 8 personally.
On the contrary, the problem was that the orchestra didn't offer a fulfilling experience, and, in fact, seemed to be proactive in alienating the good players that did go through the group, myself included.
In essence, once you're out of college, it's very difficult around here to find ensembles that play at the level you're accustomed to that have open seats. It becomes a case of "if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself."
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-03-13 23:31
For what it's worth, finding audiences to listen isn't much of a problem here, if you can get the word out. Listeners are eager and receptive. If there's low turnout, usually it's because people didn't know about it.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
Post Edited (2008-03-13 23:31)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2008-03-13 23:45
In New York City, there are many, many community, non-professional orchestras.
Some of them play at a very high level, taking advantage of all the conservatory graduates in the area. Most of them are good and offer opportunities for musicians who don't play for a living. Some are not so good, but are enjoyable for the casual players nonetheless.
Some hire ringers to help raise the performance level.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-03-14 00:23
Zurich here.
Management Abstract: we could do with more players, we have to decline concert inquiries (we're already doing ~15 gigs per year), but we're strictly (well, not strictly, but de facto) an amateur band, playing for free or for food and beverage. So, no honking for a living here. If you want to go the pro route, form your own band and step out of the mass, musically.
The National Wind Music Federation requires us to do so and so many public concerts each year, else we wouldn't get funding (not much, but nonetheless). But we're doing this for fun anyway. The upside is that we get places assigned where a mere mortal wouldn't be allowed to busk.
The (self-assigned) venue spectrum goes from a retirement home with some 40 people up to the church concert which is usually packed with 500.
If you can play an instrument, you won't have a problem finding a band. Here I could choose among two dozens of whatever level I can fancy.
Many are at their lower limit re instrumentation - if two or three people call in sick...then it's "you have to imagine the trumpet part now". There is a critical size for a band, and if you fall below that, it's either merge with another and or throw in the music stand. Which happened a lot in the past, and the trend still points downhill.
School music is declining, much like the effect of NCLB - it isn't "productive" and has "no value" hence it's cut. The outcome is that youth music bands have a very tough time finding enough fresh blood, and in a few years these missing kids will be missing band members in traditional wind bands.
--
Ben
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Author: OmarHo
Date: 2008-03-14 02:24
There are many community and semi-pro orchestras and bands in Ontario open for clarinetists. Certainly community concert bands could always use clarinets but if you want to get into orchestras those are a bit different obviously because of the availability. However, there's quite a bit to choose from so you're bound to at least find one spot open. Toronto being a very open city, there's also a lesbian/gay community orchestra.
I think the audience attendance for orchestras isn't too bad but it's a bit disappointing with concert bands. I went to a community concert band concert a while ago, and sadly there were probably more people on stage than in the audience. And most of them were above 45...not very many young people enjoy that kind of music but you can't blame them, they're being bombarded with "cooler" music everywhere.
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Author: WDC
Date: 2008-03-14 03:59
Remarking about the usual age of their community band concert-goers... I just wanted to say that our community band recently had a great concert with Frank Ticheli directing us. AND there were many high schoolers in the audience. It was great to see. The average age of our band is probably 50.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-03-14 05:33
Here in Japan, there are an amazing number of amateur orchestras and ensembles. Many are comprised of people that all graduated from a particular conservatory. Some have recordings and play so well that you wouldn't know they they are not professional.
As far as clarinet- in Tokyo alone, there are at least 5 clarinet ensembles/orchestra that I can think of.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-03-14 12:33
Falls Church, Virginia, a small city just outside Washington, D.C., has a chamber orchestra, a concert band and a marching band. They've got plenty of musicians, many of them quite good. Although anybody can join without an audition, I think (from limited experience in audiences--neither my husband nor I have played in a band or an orchestra since leaving school) that these groups are considerably above average. Our classical groups don't pay the musicians, though I think the director may get a pittance. There's also a lively pop music scene here, though I don't know much about it. I'd love to know more about the jazz scene, which I've heard is excellent here, but unfortunately, all of the venues allow smoking.
It helps that Falls Church has a first-rate music store (Foxes Music), one of the best in the Washington metro area. Such a store functions similarly to a singles bar, except people hang around looking for music partners instead of nookie. The local groups post flyers and leave handouts in there. I can't count the number of times I've been in that store buying something-or-other when an employee or a customer strikes up a conversation that leads to, "Haven't I seen you playing in the...?" ("Haven't we met somewhere before?") and "Have you thought about joining the band/orchestra?"
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-03-14 15:00
Boston Area:
If you want to play in a wind ensemble chances are you will find something quite easily.
If you want to play in an orchestra, then it starts to get difficult very quickly.
In short, there are many many amateur ensembles, but it comes to playing clarinet in an amateur orchestra, there is still a significant amount of competition.
I have lived here for 5 years and don't have a regular orchestra gig yet
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2008-03-14 15:20
For the mid-level amateur player, things aren’t bad where I am. EEBaum would find some of the same problems that he is experiencing in California for higher level players.
Charleston SC is a smallish city (metro area population about 600K). In addition to our professional symphony, which is struggling, we have two community orchestras, Southcoast Symphony and Summerville Community Orchestra. Southcoast is established and doing well, with about 50 regular members. Summerville is only about 5 years old and smaller, with about 20 members. The Community Band is the oldest and largest community music organization. Two years ago they commissioned Charleston Harbor Celebration, by Robert Shelton, for their 30th anniversary. Over 60 people came to last Tuesday’s rehearsal.
Charleston is fortunate in the amateur arts area for a smaller community. We have two strong music departments here (Charleston Southern University and College of Charleston). In addition, The Citadel military college is building up its music program and actively supports both Southcoast and the Community Band. In addition, we are a resort/retirement destination, which brings in a lot of people with enough time to devote to the arts.
I have played with Southcoast, and currently play in the Community Band. Both are not especially grey in their membership. Last year one of our percussionists became a teenager and one of the Sax players celebrated his 92nd birthday. As usual, we have a lot of local music students and teachers among the members. The band is also lucky in having more depth than most community organizations. For instance, we have two former Navy bandsman playing third clarinet. One could easily play 1st, and the other could on a good day. The seconds have a ringer as well. Southcoast isn’t quite as broad in age, but it’s no retiree’s organization.
The audiences, especially the band audiences, are diverse, with lots of kids showing up. The band plays municipal events, dedications, Memorial Day, 4th of July and such, which bring a good mix of people. Even at concerts, the turnout isn’t all seniors.
While I would say that the highschool music situation here isn’t as good as it was 30 years ago, that is changing for the better. Many of the local schools have strong music programs. The local Catholic highschool (which is one of the larger schools in the area) had let their music program die on the vine ten years ago. They are now working hard to revive it. One of the downtown public schools was recently renovated and now has a first class theater, and the programs to go with it.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-03-14 18:46
Tony: Our community band over here in Arkansas adopted your community band's Constitution & Bylaws (with name changes) as our own. Thanks, guys. Eu, Librarian/Equipment Manager, Van Buren County Community Band
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Author: Chauncey
Date: 2008-03-16 03:38
I'm a Florida resident.
Recently, Zukerman and the Royal Philharmonic paid a visit at the performing arts center, and listener turnout was very high. Seats were packed, traffic was backed up, and it took me a good half hour to find a parking place.
...many of the listeners were elderly, as Florida suggests, but there were good handfuls of other generations mixed in (a group of mohawk-toting high-schoolers were present as well!)
Tickets were sold out to an Elton John concert scheduled this Sunday, but it was postponed because he's in the hospital (kidney stones, I think. I'm not sure). Nonetheless, I always prepare to leave for my business much, much earlier when concerts like this show up.
Getting a chance to play with an orchestra or choir is easy with the community bands around, but getting a chance to play with at least a semi-professional and advanced ensemble is near impossible.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2008-03-16 15:22
As with most other activities in rural Maine, a lot of the activity is seasonal. There are many community concert bands dotted around the state and they carry on the old tradition of evening concerts in the town center underneath a gazebo, very Currier & Ives. "R.B. Hall Day" is celebrated every summer (he was Maine's "March King") where as many as two dozen bands from all over the state get together and play for the whole day. I would echo the observations of others; the evening band concerts are largely attended by an older crowd, but the festival atmosphere around "R. B. Hall Day" draws a large audience.
In the colder months — relatively speaking, because even in the summer a sea breeze or a passing cloud can make you think it's March — there are holiday concerts and community theater productions. There are also small wind groups here and there. The distances people will travel can be astounding; I travel a hundred mile round trip to play in the Bangor Band and with the price of fuel skyrocketing ... well, you know.
The better organized municipal bands usually pay a small stipend, depending on rehearsal attendance and concert participation. As far as players, we have quite a few retired pros, semi pros, and teachers at one end of the scale and some of the more talented high school and college students on the other. In the middle are people from all different backgrounds, used car salesmen, health workers, high school music teachers, and anyone who wants to maintain some facility with their instrument. Personally I really wanted some variety; I realized that playing a honking tenor sax at the Legion Hall for the rest of my amateur career was probably not going to be that fulfilling, especially in another ten years or so. Other than the distances involved and the last minute cancellations because of ice and snow, there are plenty of opportunities to play up here but you'll probably need to keep your day job.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-03-16 15:40
Rite cheer in N E Okla [I T, that is], the formation, problems, continuance of our cherished Bartlesville Symphony is adequately described above in several posts. In our larger area, including Tulsa, its suburbs, and Claremore [remember in OKLAHOMA !] we happily have some 4-5 comm. bands, several of which I've played in, steadily in the T C B, which afford playing possibilities to us {largely} unemployed musicians for our "rewards". Both Tulsa and Ok City symphs have had financial problems, and our Tulsa Opera is, I believe, having the attendance troubles discussed above. Sure wish our "youngers" would desire the good music we love !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Pam H.
Date: 2008-03-17 00:05
In NE Ohio I believe that we have a good number of groups for amatuer musicians to play in. I play in a Pops orchestra where we do maybe 20 concerts between January and July. Our venues are mostly retirement homes and local parks in the summertime. The group is mostly older but beginning to attract a few younger players. We have some retired music educators among the ranks. I think our level of playing will improve as time goes on as just this year we have a new conductor. I know of several other community orchestras and bands in the area.
I also play at church in the orchestra there. For our bigger programs around Christmas and Easter we often hire extra string players from the Akron Symphony Orch. Playing levels vary among the ranks. Some are music educators and others are those who have picked up their instruments again after years of not playing.
I also play in a flute choir that does a number of community gigs and preludes at church throughout the year.
Other groups that I know about are the obvious high level ones that I could never dream of playing in. There's a "Big Band" that a friend of mine is in that plays quite a bit and their level of playing is pretty high. There is Cuyahoga Falls Community Band, Ashland Orchestra, Akron Pops Orchestra, Stow Community Orchestra, an orchestra or band that is geared toward older players in the area - I forget their name. I know of other smaller ensembles or soloists who manage to play in restaurants, weddings, etc.
For me, it's been helpful or at least more fun(!) that I play a number of instruments. Bass clarinet and sax in the pops group. I wouldn't want to add any more at this time though as yes, I still have a day job that has nothing to do with music.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-03-17 13:04
Southern UK:
Lots of community bands here. In general, they're quite clarinet-heavy. I'm guessing this is because the brass band (no woodwind) is a strong competing force even in the South of the UK (in the North of England, the brass band is of course an art form in its own right, and big respect to them).
Personally I play in a brass-led community band with a few cls & sax. The band leader is ex-military and likes the 'military band' sound. Our seasons are winter carols and summer bandstands, with now and then a sit-down concert for charity. Audiences for these gigs are thin but those who do turn up always have something nice to say afterwards.
I'm also fortunate enough to be invited to the occasional (very good) am-dram pit gig (for serious performances there are a lot of excellent players out there). There are quite a few /really/ nice, smaller theatres in the area that support this kind of work.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2008-03-17 15:35
When you listen to what today's young people call music, it is no surprise that the audience for community bands tends to be an older crowd.
As president of a community band, I find discussions such as this one quite interesting. But a clarinet web page probably does not attract the majority of people interested in community bands, as these organizations have many members who play other instruments.
Is there an active discussion site for community bands or orchestras?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-03-17 16:05
YES, George L, there sure is, www.boerger.org/c-m appeared to be prominent in my quickie AOL-Google search, with a comprehensive listing of bands and contact info. As to a discussion forum, I'll look further later. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-17 16:34
www.boerger.org/c-m
I was just perusing that site the other day. It is a pretty extensive international list of bands (and some orchestras).
There is also a forum for discussion.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-03-17 16:48
TKS, James, yer rite !, a bit further search turned several forums worth looking into, IMHO, in partic. the Concert Band Assoc., perhaps more military?, fee-membership ? Perhaps Ron "Boerger" is a German-pronunciation spelling of my ?Anglicized? family name ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-17 16:58
Hey Don,
The presence of the "e" after the vowel "o" indicates that the name had (and perhaps has) an um-laut over the "o". The most literal/common translation of this (germanic) name is: commoner/townsman, or just plain old burgher.
So yes! You're right on the money! Have you sent him an email with your geneaology attached?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-03-18 01:04
Hi,
I have posted several times on community band threads and indicated there that my happiest playing days have been with communiversity band (a university or college sponsored group with a faculty member as conductor and a very nice rehearsal setting). But these groups all have had much higher performance goals. There is also the associated expectation of music being well prepared and rehearsal discipline being very professional. But this is how I prefer to spend my pro bono music time.
Here in Toledo, I have one local university band and two other collegiate bands within a 30 minute drive. The funny thing is I play clarinet in one, tenor sax in another, and finally alto/soprano sax in another.
There are several opportunities to local and HS theater pay gigs for strong doublers. I just finished Fiddler, am doing Gypsy next month, and had a 6 performance run of Chicago last November. In Chicago, the Reed 3 book called for 3 different saxes and two clarinets; it took about 25 minutes to get all the plumbing connected and instrument stands erected. Also, some of the horn swaps were done in 4 measures.
There are also several community bands around that I have played with when on short notice they needed a "hired gun" on clarinet and sax. But I can't see myself playing with these groups on a regular basis; the group's musical goals do not match mine but I'm always willing to help the directors out when they are in a jam.
I have not gotten back to jazz and club dates here because there aren't that many any more. My playing is still fine but I'm probably too old now to work till 2 AM.
In contrast, I have occasionally gotten some church gigs that are fun and pay OK. Who would have thought?
All in all, I have plenty to keep me busy but I am willing to drive a little, prepare my parts well, and always attend all rehearsals.
HRL
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-03-18 02:17
TKS J T & G S , Have I asked you for a G S translation? I have a Seaton in my ancestry [Scottish, Seton], ?? relationship? to Robert the Bruce's brother-in-law, who saved R B's life several times per what history I have found !! Will have to mull over any B relationships, am 1/2 German. I found many pages of Bergers in the Stuttgart phone book and gave up . Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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