 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jose
Date: 2008-01-25 05:53
I've been told that my sound is dull and is square like, and I supposed to have a pear shaped sound. What is a pear shaped sound ?
I also have been told that my tongue has to be forward, what does that mean? I've been placing my tongue in the "Eee" position, but obviously, it is not enough.
I've seen a post here that talks about making a resonant chamber in the head, how to do that? and would that help ?
Please help me out. THANK YOU
Post Edited (2008-01-25 06:01)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2008-01-25 06:21
Jose,
Sounds like you have a lot of important questions. Maybe you need to talk a good teacher. If you live in Baltimore, there are plenty of people who can give you excellent instruction.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-01-25 07:12
My teacher studied with Walter Boeykens and he used to talk about the sound "letters" of the tounge like t,d,th and such(not sure about the last one in English) and then in the lowest range you make O sound with the tounge in back of you throuth and with little lip pressure and in the middel range U sound with the tounge in the middel and then when you go up to G over the brake you make E sound with the tounge in front of your mouth and the chin a little bit forward.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-01-25 12:26
Was it a private teacher or a class instructor who told you that your sound is square shaped and should be pear shaped? Maybe I'm being too literal-minded here, but music doesn't normally sound like fruit or geometry to me and although I do sometimes use metaphors, these particular metaphors are not communicating to me what this person wants you to *do* to improve your playing--nor would these words communicate anything to me that I could use to improve my own practicing, if I were in your place.
If somebody told me that I sounded square-shaped, I would ask for more information. I would try not to be rude about it, but I would want to persuade the teacher to speak less vaguely and come to the point. What does a square-shaped sound...sound like? Could this person be more specific? What would he or she want you to *do* differently (with your tongue position or your breathing or something else) in order to achieve the more desirable pear-shaped sound? And how will you recognize a pear-shaped sound if you hear it?
Really not trying to be obstructionist or snarky here, but it's not your fault you're puzzling over what you were told. Are you uneasy about going back to the teacher and asking for a clarification? It's the teacher's responsibility to say something understandable. If this teacher is a good one, then he or she will welcome questions that advance the learning process.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Brent
Date: 2008-01-25 15:49
I can think of a good many silly and non-helpful things to say about the sound of pears and resonant chambers in the head. However, i think Lelia has pretty well identified the issue here: you are being told to do something in terms that you don't understand--nor should you be expected to understand them without clarification. Is it a teacher who is telling you this?
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2008-01-25 16:57
If somebody told me to sound like a pear, I'd probably ask..a pair of what?
But I guess telling somebody to sound like a pear is close to the band director on another thread here telling his principal clarinetist to try for a "darker" sound. Usually when somebody says something like this..."try for a "insert vague term here" sound", that person doesn't know enough to know what you should sound like.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2008-01-25 17:34
Ask the instructor to play a recording of someone who has the desired
"pear shaped sound."
Then you will not be talking "apples and oranges." (insert appropriate ironic smiley here)
I think he/she means that your sound has no core (fruit analogy again, sorry Leila) or focus. Usually this is an air support issue.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2008-01-25 17:48
Right on, Lelia! Next it'll be hexagonal, octogonal, breadfruit or mango-shaped clarinet sounds. Jose, if you have a teacher or knowledgeable professional who knows their clarinet, ask them about HOW to improve your sound. Most people begin with embouchure, breath support and long tones. It's also possible to experiment with equipment (e.g. mouthpieces, ligatures, reeds, barrels, etc.). The advice of a knowledgeable professional and daily practice will do the trick.
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-01-25 18:13
Once during a practice of a piece "Pictures at an Exhibition" ? the director told the band to not play square shaped and to play more pear shaped.
This had to do with the attack, elongation and release of a note. he was after the tonal concept of those big concert chimes.
he actually drew a picture - a graph (not of a pear) which is similar to half a pear .. bigger end on the left. so you sound has a smooth but big attack then tapers off.
not sure if that is what he meant at all ..... but thought I would throw that in
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2008-01-25 21:21
Apparently my first teacher's teacher, Robert Marcellus talked often of a "pear shaped tone". I use the analogy often when teaching and to me it means a tone with bigness in the bottom, rather sturdy, not thin, and on top there should be lots of highs, resonance, a hint of buzz. A stacked tone if you will. It is a difficult concept to put into words here, but with demonstration it is quite an easy concept to understand.
A square shaped tone makes a lot of sense to me. I would imagine it to be only the bottom of the "pear", rather inflexible, like a freight train.
Regarding your tongue being forward in the mouth: I don't do it and do not teach it. Pushing it forward will slow down the air and increase the tubbiness of the tone. Of course on this one there will be differing opinions so take it for what it's worth.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-01-25 22:39
I never heard of the pear shaped sound. I know of the banana concept where you start strongly, curve down a little, then finish slightly higher, though it can lead to some slip-ups.
My feeling is that if you take these fruit analogies too far, you're likely to meet with some quite sharp acidic comments from other forum members and end up in a real pickle.
Besides, why pear shaped? You could just as easily say raspberry or strawberry shaped.
You need good advice from a teacher to get yourself out of this jam.
Steve
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-01-25 23:03
"Besides, why pear shaped? You could just as easily say raspberry or strawberry shaped. "
Sounding like a raspberry is probably not what the director had in mind! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
The whole thing is a big paradox to me.
Guess I'll go back to the kitchen and have a bottle of Perrier.
Down Periscope!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-01-25 23:05)
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2008-01-28 10:56
Hm, could it be that the guy asking for the pear-shaped sound regularly records himself on a computer ? If he is accustomed to looking at such recordings, he might just be talking about the form of the graph (to get an impression how these graphs look like, try e.g. http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/images/audacity-windows.png).
If so, what he means by "pear-shaped" would be entirely related to dynamics: Starting rather loud (but with an audible increase at the beginning) and decaying on a longer slope, much like a gong - in contrast to a rectangular graphics, which would mean a tone that just starts and stops abruptly without increase or decay.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-01-28 12:33
>>If he is accustomed to looking at such recordings, he might just be talking about the form of the graph (to get an impression how these graphs look like, try e.g. http://audacity.sourceforge.net/about/images/audacity-windows.png).
>>
Nogu, your idea has the merit of making sense. If that's what the teacher meant, it's something the student could test empirically, instead of a vague metaphor that different people would interpret to mean different things. On the other hand, if that's what the teacher meant, then he or she should have said so....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2008-01-28 13:56
When I was in high school, the following was related to me as being a true story.
A young conductor was working with a famous orchestra and stopped
the rehearsal to ask the principal clarinetist to "play with a more pear-shaped
tone". The clarinetist, an older and highly respected musician, responded with
something like: "Certainly son. Which end of the pear would you like up?"
D.O.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-01-28 14:57
I think a pear shaped means a sound that has shape and contour. Maybe someone said this because there is no life in the sound and its somewhat monotone.
I would take this comment to mean play with a more vocal style. Add a taper at the end of a phrase or add intensity to your sound instead of letting it do nothing. It's very easy to just blow and not do anything with your sound which for the listener can be very boring.
A great comment about Harold Wright after he passed from one of his colleagues was that "every pitch Harold Wright played had meaning". That's the jist of the comment anyways.
I would not take offense to the comment. We don't sing in a monotone way and we should not play that way as well.
Post Edited (2008-01-28 16:10)
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-01-28 17:41
It has been related to me that Robert Marcellus often talked about sound as shaped like a droplet or pear. Most of the sound is round (a covered "oo" sound), but has a little point at top (a few extra higher frequencies or "ping") to yield greater projection. Other teachers have offered similar descriptions. It is fairly academic to describe sound with words- my advice would be to find examples online or on cds of great player (you can easily find sound clips of Wright, Marcellus, Morales, McGill, Mclane, etc. online) and listen to them religiously. Tape yourself and then compare yourself to them- what is it about the shape or timbre of their sound that is masterful? Only then will you really be able to understand these metaphors.
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Author: Jose
Date: 2008-01-28 18:33
Everyone, thanks so much for the advices. The pear-shaped tone that the teacher refers to, is definitely the way how Marcellus used it, a round sound with a "ping" on top. However, the question now, is how to make that "ping" sound ? I've read a lot of posts here, and I am not able to find a solution to it. Is the tongue position the key to this? I've tried raising the front of my tongue while I'm raising the back. It produced a sound that is somewhat similar, however, I found it extremely difficult to blow. Am I doing it wrong? Or I'm just simply not used to that tongue position? Any advices? THANK YOU
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2008-01-29 19:42
Jose:
Unless you're simply unable to afford it, GET A TEACHER. The fine people on this site can only teach us so much via the internet (and I've learned a lot and appreciate the generous and knowledgeable advice), but, for some things, you need hands-on training (e.g. one has to hear you, see your embouchure ("rubber band" idea from Marcellus interview), tell if you're producing the right sort of breath support ("out and down"/"rubber tube" or what I call "down and out" method of support from Marcellus interview, etc.). And, in some cases, experimentation with equipment. Good luck!
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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Author: soggyreed
Date: 2008-01-29 20:28
It’s physics and art that determine your sound. The interplay of tongue, oral cavity, reed, teeth, mouthpiece, and on and on make each one of us sound the way we do. Too, you are not going to sound quite the same to you as you do to others – or even among others. The best advice you’ve gotten so find is to find a good teacher and is probably the best advice you will get. Much of what shaped my sound was playing with my teachers and listening. Chances are you got the comment you did because someone didn’t like your sound. Depending on who that was, it may or may not matter. The description you received of your sound makes me think that you may be producing a tone with too many high and midrange overtones and not enough lows. The only other piece of advice I can offer you is to experiment with more than just your tongue and see what happens. When I find my sound getting too bright I try and use more of a double lip embouchure. Strictly speaking that involves putting the upper lip over the top teeth. It takes a long time to get use to that type of embouchure and there is pain along the way. I do not advocate it, even though I’ve used it in the past. But what I have found that when I put more downward pressure on the mouthpiece with my upper lip it changes my throat, tongue and lower lip. Probably affects other parts as well. I notice too that I lose the brightness and get a darker sound with a ring to it. My methods are not necessarily those in current fashion but they work for me. That’s the art part.
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Author: clarinboy
Date: 2008-01-30 00:20
There are some good answers but very confusing, many different answers. Telling a student to get a pear shaped tone is rediculious without explaining what that means. I've been teaching clarinet for many years and have had some very advanced students, many of them professionals now, I've never heard of a tone being described as that. Besides, that's only one persons opinion. Are we all supposed to have the same "pear" shaped tone quality. Talk to another teacher or player and ask them what they think of your tone, they may think it's good the way it is and just needs more focus, a term we can all associtate with, or they may say darker, or brighter, or maybe smaller or bigger, even richer or more brilliant. Then you can really be confused. You should look for the sound you like not what some other person likes. Listen to others and get the concept you want and work towards that goal. Pear shaped or grape shaped, I'd stay away from the person that gave you that usless advise. Mr. Jose, good luck.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-01-30 00:53
Any chance the "pear shape" translates to say quarter notes that initiate smoothly ....swell...then taper gradually with a gentle release at the end. This would contrast to say bell tone quarter notes or very legato quarter notes of a constant dynamic level. The pear shape would not be referring to tone quality but rather to the beginning, middle and end of the note dynamically and the beginning and end articulatively. (my own word) In any case Eric Satie would be pleased with the pear usage. Piece en forme de poire. Upon rereading the posts here I would agree with Stevesklar and partially with Nogu. To me it is more than just dynamics.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2008-01-31 19:27)
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Author: D
Date: 2008-01-31 22:12
wasn't it Satie that wrote "Three pieces in the shape of a pear" after someone said his music had no shape?
Whoever it is was had the best titles for his music.
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Author: D
Date: 2008-01-31 22:18
Just checked, it was Satie. He also wrote things like "dessicated embryos" and " symphony bureaucratic" and "vexations" which is repeated nearly 900 times and takes about a day and a half to play.
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