 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Emily Duke
Date: 2000-08-10 01:21
I'm interested on others' thoughts about Buffet clarinet line living up to its reputation as the "best in town", etc.-- admittedly it's been around for so long and generally proven to be top of the line. But, for example, I recently invested in mint R-13 Buffet & had it checked out by clarinet specialist Tom Riddenhaur (author of Clarinet Fingerings standard ref.)- & he talked about the same thing- it's a very good horn & acceptable to most- but, he said most buffet's are uneven across the range in pitch (varying up to 15 cents sharp/flat) and tone. That was my main complaint- I want a horn that produces a full, clear, warm tone in the upper register & have NOT found that in Buffet. Tom strongly recommended the Selmer Signature clarinet (Paris)- just wondered if anyone else is acquainted with that clarinet (it's a new line- 1998 I think) & could give feedback to a potential buyer (heading off to college to major in music).
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-08-10 01:48
I recommend you to search clarinet archive in Klarinet mailing list. One or two years ago, there was a hot arguments,some of which were not necessarily logical but a matter of preference.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-08-10 02:10
Hiroshi's right - it's a matter of preference. There's no perfect horn (a few manufacturers are getting closer), and even if there were it'd only be perfect for a few people. Some people prefer the Selmers (I have a 10G, and it's brighter than a Buffet - but Gigliotti sure sounded better than I do on it!), some Buffets, some Yamahas, some Leblancs - and I'll bet that certain people on each of those instrumenst can get the tone you're looking for.
As to the unevenness of the Buffet scale - yes, it's there, but it sure doesn't seem to get in the way of those people who play well ...
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Author: Michael Kincaid
Date: 2000-08-10 03:05
Emily Duke wrote:
Tom strongly recommended the Selmer Signature clarinet (Paris)- just wondered if anyone else is acquainted with that clarinet (it's a new line- 1998 I think) & could give feedback to a potential buyer (heading off to college to major in music).
-------------------------------------------------
Emily, I bought my Selmer Signature a year ago and
it has a great feel and beautiful tone. It seems to play in tune very well up and down the instrument even with my weak embouchure and soft
reeds. I'm
still very early in my journey with the clarinet, but
I'd buy another one if something happened to this one.
Just my opinion, in a field that is crowded with opinions!
Michael
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Author: William
Date: 2000-08-10 05:42
After having played LeBlanc Concertos (that T. Ridenour tweeked for me when he was still with LeB.) for the past ten years, I have recently returned to my old R-13s for their superior sound and playing flexability. They just seem to "sing" in a way the LeBlancs have a hard time doing. While I was playing the LeBlancs, I did try a couple of Selmer Sigs. which I found to be well in tune and even in all registers, but rather inflexabile when played in an ensemble. Mark's advice is good, but I am happy to be back in the Buffet section of the world of clarinet. Good luck.
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Author: BAC
Date: 2000-08-10 12:22
I too compared the Sig with a R13. The sig was slightly better than a standard R13, but when I tried another R13 - the green-line, the R13 was head and heals over the Sig. This was both on a meter and by ear. The Greenline R13 was more even over the entire range, and at a fraction of the cost of a Sig, right out of the box! Indeed, the R13s have sound that is hard to mimic.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2000-08-10 14:16
Tom Ridenour is a knowledgeable guy, but he has a serious credibility problem when it comes to criticizing clarinet manufacturers. He apparently had something to do with the design of the Leblanc Opus but now endorses (for money, I believe) the Selmer Signature.
That said, Buffet clarinets are better now than they have ever been.
If you find a clarinet from Selmer, Leblanc or Yamaha that you think plays "more evenly" than a Buffet, by all means buy it. But don't think you are buying a horn without tradeoffs. Clarinets play the way you play them, if it is uneven, you are playing it unevenly.
Ridenour seems convinced that it is impossible to play Buffet clarinets with a consistent tone quality and in tune. Marcellus, Wright, and many others prove him wrong.
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-08-10 15:23
A clarinet with a full clear warm tone in the upper register, but not found with Buffet? But which of their other instruments have you tried apart from the R13? Tried the RC, DG, Elite? Like other manufacturers Buffet make horses for courses, and the R13 is one of the more compact sounding in their stable.
And what about the mouthpiece you are using. Does that get the best out of the instrument? In my experience (of listening to others) R13s can sound terribly bland, but when the player knows how to use them and the set up is right, that's a very different matter. Challenge yourself to get the best out of it before assuming that it's wrong for you.
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Author: larry
Date: 2000-08-10 15:34
Isn't it true that Acker Bilk gets his unique sound from playing Buffet clarinets?
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Author: William
Date: 2000-08-10 16:29
To Hat & others: FYI--Tom Ridenour once told me (when he was the head accoustician for LeBlanc having developed the Opus and Concerto clarinets) that he could play any clarinet in tune and evenly--this was while he was critqueing on of my R-13s. He then convinced me that the LeBlancs were the best thing since "sliced bread" for clarinets and did some masterful tweeking on a set for me which I bought and played faithfully for the past ten years. When he left LeBlanc (rather unhappy and disillusioned with management, I think), he immidiantly started pushing the new Selmer Sig. as the best clarinet on the market. Credability????? Selmer money???? Tom is a talentled and good person, but I wonder...... Personally, I have switched back to my old R-13s and am amazed at how well they are playing for me--and at my age, I know it must be the instruments 'cause I am not as good as I used to be. New horns??? Buyer beware. Reputation may be a good word here. Good luck, all.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2000-08-10 17:50
I don't want to get in trouble, but I agree with the statements about T.R.'s (shifting) bias. Anyway, I did own a new Selmer "Recital," I (do now) own an R-13 (1985), and I have other "unique" blackwood sitting arond (such as a B&H 1010, which is what Acker Bilk played). The R-13 is the clarinet I play. I sold the "Recital." Great intonation, evenness, but rather inflexible or unexciting dynamics. Dark-sounding, but somehwat monotone. I do agree with the charge that the top of the scale is ineven and thin. But, somehow, if I had to choose one clarinet, it'd be the R-13.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-08-10 18:12
What's the best clarinet? I believe it's the one I'm playing at the moment! I playtest many types of instruments and they all have their enduring qualities, even the Bundy's. (Actually the old all wood Bundy is a fairly nice clarinet.) Having said that...it is a matter of preference and I think players need to GROW with a good quality instrument instead of looking "for greener pastures". I think the idividual has the ability to play in or out of tune, with or without eveness of tone...it's something that has to be developed just like technique.
J. Butler
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 2000-08-10 18:55
Many good and valuable comments here! I'd like to add a thought: There is a LARGE variance in playing qualities from individual clarinet to clarinet, even within the same brand and model. For example --- try out 5 or 10 Buffet R-13's, and you'll probably find one you love, some you like, some you don't like, and one you can't stand! (Kinda like a box of Vandoren reeds, huh?). I remember years ago trying out nine Selmer Mark 6 tenor saxes -- they all played differently from each other (and I ended up buying a Couf anyway, even thought the Mark 6 was and is probably the most-hyped sax of all time, analogous to the Buffet R-13 hype that exists). Over the last couple of years, I've had the opportunity to extensively play a bunch of old, "off-brand" clarinets (that is, none of them were from the Big 4 of B___, L____, S____, or Y____). Some of these were from old, out-of business French and American brands nobody (except maybe Don Berger!) has heard of, and guess what? A fair percentage of them play very well, at least to my ear, some of them every bit as well as the fabled R-13's I've tried! The point is, instruments are like mouthpieces and reeds, every single one is unique and MUST be judged on its own merits, by thorough playing (and checking with a tuner under various conditions). I would venture that what makes a particular brand/model ostensibly 'superior' to another is the higher PROBABILITY of getting a good instrument, compared to an 'inferior' brand or model. In other words, you are probably more likely to get an excellent R-13 or Selmer Signature or Leblanc Opus, say, than you would a Jupiter or a Bundy (please pardon my examples --- no slights intended). Nonetheless, you will still find dogs amongst the top brands (I used to own a truly mediocre R-13 soprano, and have recently played another very average one as well as a very good one), just as you can find gems amongst the lesser-regarded or lesser-known brands (for example, I've had wonderful clarinets from Penzel-Mueller, Couesnon, Kohlert, Thibouville Freres, and a few others recently, and I'd put them up against anything currently on the market today. OK, call me an eccentric!). I suppose the moral of this rambling story is: Keep an open mind, don't purchase solely on the basis of the opinions or advice of others, and try everything you can get your hands on! If you're really fixated on a particular brand, STILL try a whole bunch of them. Ultimately, of course, it's the player, not the setup, that makes the beautiful music; but the instrument should assist you in this quest, not hamper you.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-08-10 20:07
Wow, what a ramble thru the bramble [thickets of cl's, that is] Dave!!! TKS for the sorta-plug , I, also, always try out all the cl's which come along, love my #1 hand-picked LeB L7, big-bore Selmer, and loved the gift of a good Thib. to Kristi in Tulsa, another old FB P-M to Bill. Just haven't as yet had the opportunity to "test under fire" a VG-appearing, older Evette-Sch, which others have said was a goodie. Have the "King & I" coming up [if I can make it!]. I pretty much go with the idea to keep [forever] trying to find what is best for you. What few R13's I've had a chance at, I've found good [for my taste!]. See, Dave, I've rambled on also, can blame mine on age! Don
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-08-10 22:06
William wrote:
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After having played LeBlanc Concertos (that T. Ridenour tweeked for me when he was still with LeB.) for the past ten years, I have recently returned to my old R-13s for their superior sound and playing flexability. They just seem to "sing" in a way the LeBlancs have a hard time doing. While I was playing the LeBlancs, I did try a couple of Selmer Sigs. which I found to be well in tune and even in all registers, but rather inflexabile when played in an ensemble. Mark's advice is good, but I am happy to be back in the Buffet section of the world of clarinet. Good luck.
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How very odd. Those few R-13s that I have tried don't "sing" like my trusty old Leblanc Symphonie II and did not have the agility in the altissimo to which I was accustomed. However I haven't tried the new Leblancs.
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Author: Stuart Inselman
Date: 2000-08-10 23:49
For Dave Spiegelthal, I wonder if you ever played a "TRIEBERT" Paris clarinet. I have one which was purchased
for me 51 years ago (wood). I tried to find out about it but to no avail. Would appreciate any info from anyone.
Stuart
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-08-11 01:49
McLane,Wright,Marcellus,etc all used Moennig tuned R-13s. This 'tune' includes total re-positioning of tone holes as you can search Klarinet Archive. They are different instruments from off-the-shelf R-13s. Todays customizers will not be able to do their work up to this level.
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Author: Bob Gardner
Date: 2000-08-11 01:52
larry wrote:
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Isn't it true that Acker Bilk gets his unique sound from playing Buffet clarinets?
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Good man Larry. Another Bilk fan. I don't know what he plays but it sounds good to me. A few thinks he plays a Sax.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2000-08-11 13:15
Hiroshi wrote:
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McLane,Wright,Marcellus,etc all used Moennig tuned R-13s. This 'tune' includes total re-positioning of tone holes as you can search Klarinet Archive. They are different instruments from off-the-shelf R-13s. Todays customizers will not be able to do their work up to this level.
According to whom?
Plus, off the shelf R-13s are very different from 40 years ago. Many improvements have been made. Major retuning is not as necessary.
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Author: larry
Date: 2000-08-11 13:36
To those who have questioned Tom Ridenour's motivations: please try to be more careful about such unsubstantiated remarks in a public forum such as this. It's not fair. Why not just take him at his word? You can still disagree without impugning his reputation. How do we know that YOU are not some secret Boosey Hawkes operative desperate to maintain Buffet's market share (especially after the disasterous demise of the BH clarinet)?
One of the great things about this bulletin board, and much to Mark C's credit, is the free, rambling, humorous, and fair exchange of thoughts. Let's not descend to the ugly level of most other internet discussions.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 2000-08-11 13:43
I have never played nor worked on a Triebert -- the ones I've seen on eBay have all been Albert system, and quite old (1920's vintage or earlier, I'm guessing). There was a thread on Triebert here on Sneezy a while ago -- try a search. I believe the company was better known for their oboes.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-08-11 14:50
Very well said, Larry, we should be careful as well as using the "IMHO" [IMVHO] to speak our piece within reason. Re: the Trie. discussion, I looked it up in our archives, and still believe your 50-60's horn [much later than the formation of the Loree empire] is a "stencilled" , but obviously a good, inst, whose ancestry will be almost impossible to trace. Enjoy it, Don
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Author: Emily Duke
Date: 2000-08-11 16:58
Thanks for the info- I did search & found some interesting arguments (especially Tom & Roger- back & forth)-- very, very interesting. . .
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Author: Dieter
Date: 2000-08-11 17:41
larry wrote:
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To those who have questioned Tom Ridenour's motivations: please try to be more careful about such unsubstantiated remarks in a public forum such as this. It's not fair. Why not just take him at his word? You can still disagree without impugning his reputation. How do we know that YOU are not some secret Boosey Hawkes operative desperate to maintain Buffet's market share (especially after the disasterous demise of the BH clarinet)?
Oh please, if he is going to be out there speaking the way he does, his motivation SHOULD be questioned by everyone. It's not like switching from Pepsi to Coke here.
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Author: Stuart Inselman
Date: 2000-08-11 17:58
My Triebert is B flat. It has a black roller on the e flat key so you can roll over to the c key. My teacher says the horn plays very well, but I probably would like to get a Buffet only because of the "supposed best horn syndrone".
If I could get a definitive answer from someone as to value and "greatness" of my Triebert, I would appreciate it. By the way I went back to playing after a 48 year layoff.
Stuart
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Author: larry
Date: 2000-08-11 18:36
Dieter -
I can understand questioning his judgement or taste, but what's the point of questioning his motivation? The only reason I can see is that Tom's learned opinions are threatening to you and your identity as a clarinetist. You must be quite insecure.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-08-11 22:09
Stuart Inselman wrote:
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My Triebert is B flat. It has a black roller on the e flat key so you can roll over to the c key. My teacher says the horn plays very well, but I probably would like to get a Buffet only because of the "supposed best horn syndrone".
If I could get a definitive answer from someone as to value and "greatness" of my Triebert, I would appreciate it. By the way I went back to playing after a 48 year layoff.
Stuart
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I think at this point, only you can assess the quality of the instrument. As far as monetary value, since no one is familiar with these instruments, it will be low. Many fine wooden instruments sell on on the auction sites for only $100 or so because they are out of production and no one knows whether they are any good. If you get a different clarinet, keep this one for a backup, especially if you like it.
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Author: Dieter
Date: 2000-08-12 03:20
larry wrote:
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Dieter -
I can understand questioning his judgement or taste, but what's the point of questioning his motivation? The only reason I can see is that Tom's learned opinions are threatening to you and your identity as a clarinetist. You must be quite insecure.
Aha, so I have a problem, but he doesn't? The point is, for a guy whose opinions are supposed to be ''learned," they seem to change rather easily. He leaves Leblanc, and all of a sudden someone else's clarinets are better. Sour Grapes?
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Author: Gene Wie
Date: 2000-08-13 07:16
It seems to me that everyone has a different concept of what a "good clarinet" is. Having run through a good number of different instruments, I can honestly say that I would have been happy with any one of them given enough time. Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer, or Yamaha; it makes no real difference in the end run. I'm sure we've all seen fantastic artists everywhere with the entire span of clarinet models from every major (and many minor) manufacturer(s).
In fact, I recall not really caring *what* my instrument was until someone decided to point out to me that his [insert brand name here] was a superior instrument to everything else my compatriots and I were playing on. While I felt rather inadequate at the time with my weathered and beaten selmer signet, as did most of us come audition time, we had nothing to worry about. Mr. Expensive Instrument Boy had the musicality of a concrete slab.
...and up to this day I think my former clarinet teacher could easily play circles around me with a "bundy." =)
Being a violinist as well, I have to take a realistic look at this situtation: I'd rather pay for the car, mortgage, and groceries than throw in my year's salary to obtain an instrument. I'm never going to be world class performer with that attitude in any case, but if I lead myself into believing that I can't perform well because my $5000 instrument can't cut it in the face of quarter million dollar antiques, I'm not going to have much fun as a musician, am I?
I'm glad to be fortunate enough to currently own an extensive selection of clarinets. But every once in awhile, when I'm tempted to blame my instrument for some failure to complete a passage, I pull out that battered signet once again, work until I can play it perfectly on it, then go back to the buffet/leblanc/whatever and prove to myself again and again that it's 99% player and 1% instrument.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
Gene Wie
gwie@uci.edu
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Author: Mary
Date: 2000-08-13 17:42
I'm surprised no one's brought up the smaller makers. After 20 years on R13s, I bought a Rossi, french bore (like the RC), and am stunned by how much more even the tone is, from low to high. Warm sound, good intonation. Yes, the player makes a huge difference, but the having an instrument that performs to your liking does too.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2000-08-14 13:10
The older Leblancs are like nothing else in terms of flexibility and response. I had an early L7 I sold to buy tickets for a vacation. Big mistake. That clarinet gave something to both the Brahms sonatas that nothing else could (when I play that music now, I REMEMBER what it felt like to play it with the Leblanc). I think the new Leblancs are nothing like the "Symphonies" and L-series of old.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2000-08-14 13:26
I enjoy having different make instruments, with their surprisingly wide variation in playing characteristics. But, after playing on one of them for two days, I can't tell the difference until I switch to something else.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-08-16 04:05
This occured in 1980s. I am very interested. Is there anyone who knows the difference between before and after?
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