 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-02 18:40
Is this playbacked?
(It's a nice tune, but the players seemed odd, somehow)
--
Ben
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-12-02 19:35
Great stuff. When was it done? Around the early 80s?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-12-03 11:40
A gifted player.....even in the ocean.
Bob Draznik
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-12-03 17:47
The ocean one was a bit hard to swallow. In the video John shared, the fingers and embouchure don't look like he's actually playing. The rest of his body on the other hand....!
Great music, though, I really like that stuff!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-12-03 19:56
I just listened to it again and realized I missed the part at the very beginning. Now that I saw it again you can see in the beginning there are some guys leaving while the music starts. This is from an Israeli comedy show called "Zehu Ze" (in English means "That's It") which is one of the funniest shows! They usually had a musician perform on each show and if I remember right they couldn't have the live sound and always the film of the music was recorded seperately from the audio which is why it looks like "the fingers and embouchure don't look like he's actually playing".
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-12-03 20:52
I wasn't looking for "clarinet synching," but on a second viewing, I think there would be more embouchure movement if the fellow had been actually playing. However, if they're not playing, they're perfectly synchronized with the sound, and at least the accordion player looks like he's actually playing.
However, whoever is playing is a real monster technician, and a wonderful musician too.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2007-12-04 15:33)
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Author: sdr
Date: 2007-12-03 21:13
Oy vey! Great chops do not equate to great taste. This "kitchen sink" style of klezmer clarinetistry is, in my opinion, grotesque. Ornaments should decorate the tune, not obscure it. Ideally, the ornaments are used judiciously to spice up and individualize the piece just the way you would use spices in cooking. Throwing in big handfuls of all the spices in the drawer will rarely yield a winning recipe.
If you would like to hear outstanding and tasteful klezmer, I would suggest you listen to Andy Statman (for a highly ornamented style), Kurt Bjorling of Brave Old World or Merlin Shepherd of Budowitz (for more traditional style), Ilene Stahl of the Klezmer Conservatory Band (for a modern, swing-influenced style), or go back to the widely available archival recordings/reissues of Dave Tarras and Naftule Brandwein from the first half of the 20th century for the direct connection to the "old country."
-sdr
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-03 22:12
In addition to sdr's comments, I'd like to suggest Helmut Eisel's (the one with "Waldemar" in Larry's post) new CD "impromptu". Not quite so traditional - just piano and clarinet. (some samples here)
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Ben
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-12-04 01:31
sdr wrote:
> Oy vey! Great chops do not equate to great taste. This
> "kitchen sink" style of klezmer clarinetistry is, in my
> opinion, grotesque. Ornaments should decorate the tune, not
> obscure it. Ideally, the ornaments are used judiciously to
> spice up and individualize the piece just the way you would use
> spices in cooking. Throwing in big handfuls of all the spices
> in the drawer will rarely yield a winning recipe.
>
(snip)
Yeah, but I would like to have those chops.
And the kitchen sink style of klezmer, or any other genre, for that matter, has an exciting appeal. It may not be introspective, contemplative music, but it makes you want to get up and move around. It's music for a party, not a concert.
Steve Epstein
Post Edited (2007-12-04 01:35)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-12-04 04:38
Now I'm confused. Which of the clips were you referring to that isn't in synch?
Anyway the first one (clarinet & accordion) is playback and the second one is a live cocert, not playback. BTW the player in the first clip is from the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra.
SDR which of the clips do you mean that is "grotesque"? If it's the first one then it is part of the culture we had here at the time. It was a comedy show (many short sketches) and everything at that time was a little "grotesque" and hard to explain. Generally things get here later than other countries but this is pretty old anyway.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-12-04 11:17
"The ocean one was a bit hard to swallow."
But cool. I find all styles of klezmer rather natural and enjoyable.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-12-07 11:47
John,
This is a very lively performance of a piece recorded by Dave Tarras.
The Tarras recording I heard was structured A/B/C/D/B/C/D/B.
The A section was a Rumanian Hora (in 3/8). This recording uses the B & C sections, but puts in a different D section.
Regards,
Ralph
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Author: hpadi
Date: 2007-12-07 13:04
I am not an expert however for my taste it was too much. In my view is just another comedy and noting more. When I was a child during the celebration of New Year or birthday parties we all make noises with these metal trumpets and horns. The sound that this individual is making in some parts of his presentation reminds me such festivities. I did not really like this performance.
hpadi
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-12-07 18:06
Re: comments of Steven D Rauch and Henry Padilla:
"Serious" musicians yearn to be taken seriously, I find. This has led to jazz musicians who compete to play the most "far out", blue grass mandolin players who play the most notes in the shortest time possible, avant garde classical composers who challenge audiences to "get it", and many other examples of musicians NOT connecting with audiences. Then along comes a guy like Kenny G who commits the crime of figuring out what audiences really want and making a ton of money with less than virtuoso playing. Or perhaps an Israel Zohar, who's probably not nearly as wealthy but has also committed the crime of playing for audiences, of making them HAPPY.
Like I wrote, this is party music. But serious musicians don't really want to play for parties anymore, do they?
Steve Epstein
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-12-07 18:13
Kenny G is, I'm told, a really fine jazz player, who couldn't break out of the pack. Then he discovered how to circular-breathe and makes millions squeezing out a stream of new-age pap like an endless line of toothpaste.
You make a living first, and make art afterward.
Ken Shaw
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Author: hpadi
Date: 2007-12-08 06:51
Am compelled to rebut mister Steve Epstein’s posting to my comments on John J. Moses link. I quite do not understand why some people become so offended, disturbed and even go out their way to get on the offensive over nothing.
What I said was my opinion, my view and above all my taste for what I saw and hear in that video. I believe that I am entitled to have that much with out having to defend it.
Now that I have been engaged I would like to say this. It is my opinion that “SERIOUS” musicians DO NOT yearn, and much less to be taken seriously as mister Steve Epstein say.
If you are a serious musician you do not have to beg for anything. You play for the love and the feeling you have for the music you play. You don’t yearn. Who ever like your playing likes it and who ever don’t they simply don't.
Apparently nowadays most musicians engage in a series of crazy, weird and bizarre, if not ordinary way of making good sound. I personally do not object to it, I just don’t like it and I am entitling to that as well. I am happy with Beethoven, and Mozart you all can have everything else and that too is my taste and view.
And that's all I have to say… mmm for now!
Henry Padilla
Post Edited (2007-12-08 10:06)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-12-08 07:14
Steve Epstein - I play mostly improvised music/avantgade and I thought the Klezmer clip from Israel Zohar was great and the same for others making pop music. I really don't understand your strange genralizations. There is great "party music" and there is bad, and the same for modern, avantgarde and every other type. The good musicians in their own style really don't "play the most "far out"... play the most notes in the shortest time possible, challenge audiences to "get it", and many other examples of... NOT connecting with audiences." Actually, they do exactly like any other good musician does which is play what they want to play and what sounds good to them. Good musicians who play avatgarde and improvised music connect with the audience the same as any musician. Maybe they are not as rich and don't have as many people coming to their concerts as others but it is not a competition who sells more anyway.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-12-08 07:43
Clarnibass -- yes there is good party music and there is bad, and I liked the clip, too. I was making the point that some people think that if there is a lot "showmanship", this is automatically bad. I inferred that from Henry Padilla's and Steven D Rauch's comments. Perhaps that was an incorrect inference.
Steve Epstein
Post Edited (2007-12-08 07:43)
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Author: sdr
Date: 2007-12-09 19:51
Steve Epstein,
I wasn't criticzing the "showmanship" in my earlier post, I was expressing my dislike for the hyper-ornamented version of the tune. I enjoy "party music" just fine. I like a soloist who declaims the piece. I have no objection to someone exerting a lot of body english to get the tune out. I just didn't like his rendition of the piece. I admit that I am rather a traditionalist, preferring stuff that is closer to the old world sound of Rumanian, Hungarian, and Rom village music. The klezmer idiom originated as an instrumental version of cantorial vocal styles. I dare say you will never hear anyone singing what was coming out of Israel Zohar's clarinet.
-sdr
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-12-10 05:30
SDR, I think I know what you mean. I enjoy both. I find his playing style with its hyper-ornamentation closer to the Balkan "wedding band" sound as exemplified by Ivo Papasov. Not the same, just closer to that.
It would be interesting to hear a really talented singer attempt to vocally imitate Zohar's sound.
Steve Epstein
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-12-10 13:17
Israel Zohar is the bass clarinetist of the Israel Philharmonic as well as a terrific klezmer. I did read an interview once, I think in The Clarinet magazine, where he said he uses strength 1.5 or 2 reeds on a really open mouthpiece- yikes! But I guess it works for him. Nice clip.
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