 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2007-06-19 13:39
How many of you ever had your teacher play your instrument when you were beginning? And did you see that this was an issue? If so, what is a viable option in this type of situation?
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-06-19 14:35
Yeah, it can be icky. But, sometimes this is the only way to see if a mouthpiece and reed and instrument are working well together.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-19 14:43
The teacher should have an autoclave in their music room. We use them in the lab. You seal the clarinet in a bag and the autoclave heats it well over 100'C for about 30 minutes.
Steve
PS Plastic clarinets may have to be gently bent back into shape afterwards, but at least you won't contract any 'reed-rot' bacteria.
PPS Seriously, you're more likely to be hit by a meteorite than get any diseases from a mouthpiece.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-06-19 14:47
Personal experience: Joseph Gigliotti did it.....every lesson, and adjusted reed. Anthony did it sporadically, also applying homemade teeth cushion (Ebonette glove material applied with his special miracle glue...aka spit)
From Bio:Bonade did it and added shoe dirt or cigarette ashes to seal reed.
I wonder what goes on now.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-19 15:31
"From Bio: Bonade did it and added shoe dirt ... to seal reed."
Eurgh!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 15:52
Abe Galper did it...at his age he had more to lose than I did.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-19 16:28
My first woodwind teacher used to use my bassoon reeds, and when I began learning sax he used to hog my alto as he enjoyed playing it! Although he was a good teacher with bags of enthusiasm, time was limited to 20 mins as this was school tuition (and I had to share that 20 mins with his oboe pupils as well) - I went to a private sax teacher soon afterwards.
If he did this and lived to the ripe old age he did, then it can do no harm. I never got cold sores or any illnesses, and I too will try out someone else's instrument (with their set-up) to be sure it's working after a battlefield repair.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-19 16:44
Jacqueline,
It's a really bad idea to let someone else play your reed and mouthpiece.
There will always be anecdotal "evidence" of how it wasn't harmful and XXX lived to be 110, etc., plus explanations of how the probability of infection is "only .03%", etc., but.... if you get herpes or worse as a result you will be 100% affected.
A way around this might be to rotate the mouthpiece 180 degrees so that you can blow while the teacher fingers the notes, to diagnose a problem with mouthpiece/reed/embouchure.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-19 16:50
Use an alcohol swab (such as the kind that doctors wipe before an injection) and rub the reed and mouthpiece inside and out with it. That will clean most of the germs and you won't ever get sick from the player/teacher. Also after playing use purell on your hands to kill any finger germs.
It isn't CDC perfect, but quite adequate IMO.
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-06-19 17:00
There can be NO good excuse for sharing m/p reed combos between players without firstly cleaning the reed and m/p. Never give your clarinet to someone to try under these circumstances. Never try someone else's instrument likewise. It just takes a minute or two. RT.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 19:08
claritoot26 wrote:
>>Seriously???>>
Quite.
Never, never ever kiss anyone either;-)
As a teacher, I hate playing the clarinets of student smokers (I do it just once, and avoid it thereafter) -- and I suspect that students of smoking teachers have the same attitude.
But that's just personal aversion.
Tony
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-06-19 20:01
>>
How many of you ever had your teacher play your instrument when you were beginning? And did you see that this was an issue? If so, what is a viable option in this type of situation?
<<
How many of you ever kissed someone? What do you do before the first kiss? Did you swab afterwards with disinfectint?
Gah, this kind of question drives me batty. If your teacher doesn't have open sores or blisters what's the problem.
Maybe I was just too promiscuous in my twenties. I can't image this being a problem.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-06-19 20:34
If Burt Hara (or whoever) wants to try my set-up or vice versa in order to give me insight on sound production, I'm going to let him. Responsible teachers and students won't do it when they've been sick, and, unfortunately for public health, it IS a very necessary tool when teaching the nuances of sound production.
Post Edited (2007-06-19 20:38)
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-19 20:44
This is a great topic, how come it never came up?
Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode...
Solution: date your clarinet teacher!
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-19 21:54
I assume that all those who advocate swabbing their reeds, also disinfect their fingers and palms after shaking hands with someone.
Steve
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 21:58
When I see what instrument Adrian Monk is playing, why am I not surprised?
--
Ben
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Author: CEC
Date: 2007-06-19 22:10
The only teacher of mine that played my instrument had a spray can of mint flavored disinfectant that he sprayed the mouthpiece and reed with before and after.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-06-19 22:12
I will not allow it. If another one asks I'll remind them the results of my HIV and HepB tests aren't back yet, and that I have a cut in my cheek.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-19 22:57
What we need is a mouthpiece condom.....are you listening Doc!
Bob Draznik
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-19 23:29
Here's the problem - Gingivitis can easily be spread from player to player if the mp isn't sterile.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-20 08:04
would you kiss your clarinet teacher?
(?_?)
If we think that the teacher plays the mouthpiece of all their students then that means clarinet teachers are sespools of disease.
(^3^)
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Author: Katelyn
Date: 2007-06-20 08:04
I don't think it's an issue. I've borrowed used reeds from fellow players during pit orchestra emergencies and didn't get sick. Heck, my whole clarinet section shared reeds in high school. Until one of the players thought he had Mono, that is. Heh heh, good times...
But seriously, I think it can definitly be a good way for the teacher to make sure that there isn't a problem with the reed/mouthpiece setup, if nothing else seems to be the problem. And a trusty spray bottle of disinfectant mixed with minty stuff will take care of any germ worries. They should sell that stuff at a major music store.
If the teacher is sick, whether it be a cold, gum disease, herpes or whatever, he won't ask to play your instrument. If you're healthy, and he's heathly, I see no problem other than one of you thinking it's gross.
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2007-06-20 10:32
In all my years of school and adult playing, a teacher never played on my instrument. I am thankful for this, after reading all the posts here.
What I still "yuk-yuk" about is the teacher adjusting my reed on the mouthpiece. Of course, music teachers' hands never touch germy things before touching a student's reed.
Mary Jo
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 12:36
>>If the teacher is sick, whether it be a cold, gum disease, herpes or whatever, he won't ask to play your instrument. If you're healthy, and he's heathly, I see no problem other than one of you thinking it's gross.
>>
But there's the problem. Most people with HIV in industrialized nations know they need to take precautions, but in the age of antibiotics, people with self-limiting or at least curable illnesses have become cavalier about keeping their infections to themselves. Before my husband retired, he routinely ordered his subordinates who came to work sick to take their sick leave and go home, to prevent the bug spreading until half the office would go out sick and spread the infection to pregnant women or frail babies and elderly people. Self-quarantine is the best way we've got to safeguard the public health--but the same people just as routinely showed up for work coughing again anyway, next time they caught something. One of the people in his carpool was a regular disease vector. The workaholic culture has gone too far--and these days, I wouldn't trust a music teacher not to show up contagious for a lesson.
With more diseases becoming drug-resistant, reed-sharing and mouthpiece-sharing can be more than just a gross-out problem. I get Tony's humor about kissing--but, seriously, if we know someone well enough to smooch (I abominate "social kissing!), then we probably have a pretty good idea of whether or not the smoochee has galloping plague. We don't necessarily know that about a teacher we see once a week or once a month.
OTOH, just sharing a room with people can be a health hazard. Yesterday, the cellist in one of my husband's string quartets missed practice. Everybody thought some Hogwarts kid must have been messing around with the "Quartetto Confusio" spell again in his vicinity, but the truth turned out to be worse. Last week, he went to a music camp where he got placed into a quartet with someone who didn't have the courtesy to stay home and isolate his raging case of the flu. The sicko didn't lick our friend's cello strings or spit on his bow, but did *breathe*--and that entire quartet came down sick. Our friend, who's a doctor and otherwise healthy, ended up with such severe cardiac arhythmia that he had to check into the hospital.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-20 13:00
If the teacher scrapes the students reeds with whatever he is using, that scraper will have a ton of germs on it from the students reeds.
Without a somewhat sterile scraper, that's really, really gross.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-06-20 13:48
Dear Germophobes,
Germs are here, germs are everywhere. You can shake your teacher's hand and get sick you can just sit on his/her chair and get sick. You can hold the door knob of the office and get sick. You may even quarantine yourself entirely from the world and get sick. I say live on the edge share mouthpieces.
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-20 13:56
How many of us use public transport or any other public places, spaces and buildings?
If we all live in a sterile environment and adhere to a completely germ-ridding regime, we'll only fall foul to any bacteria as our resistance will be low to any virus or bacteria - read 'War of the Worlds' and you'll see why.
How have we as the human race managed to survive so far? If germs are so dangerous we'd have all been wiped out at the last plague or by smallpox. It's only through disease we are still here, and have had our resistance boosted.
Germs are everywhere to a greater or lesser degree - even in the operating theatre there are people without masks breathing their germs into the sterile environment and surgeons shedding dead skin cells as they have short sleeves.
I'm not advocation sharing the same equipment as someone else, but sometimes it happens and probably always will. Any double reed players will know that bought reeds have probably been tried out by several people before they've been bought.
String players are at risk of picking things up too if they let someone else use their instrument. There are more ways of transmitting illness other than playing someone else's clarinet.
I reckon you're just as likely to catch somthing from handling money or drinking from a glass or cup in a cafe as you are from playing someone else's instrument, no matter what it is.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-20 14:53
I suggest rubber gloves, goggles, and gause mask. Whilst you are at it, remember to never use money- cards are still ok, for now...
At this point, I caution all to not eat in any resturant anyplace in the world, never touch an animal of any kind, avoid WIND (it can be a medium of airborn disease), boil all your food for at least 10 minutes before eating it, and never touch anything that might have been touched by another within the past 25.5 hours (24.5 hrs is the life span of 'kudecus domesticus', aka- the common koodie).
BTW- to answer my question above, I have had teachers that I would kiss.
(^3^)
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-20 15:46
Best defense against germs is to strengthen the immune system with regular exercise, healthy diet, and plenty of rest. But few of us live up to this sound advise and most will fall victims to germs and virus from time to time. Those who haven't gotten ill from unsafely sharing mouthpieces and ingesting others' saliva WILL get sick sooner or later. When you think about it, who knows where that mouth has been? Sure, this world is full of germs, but there is a difference between falling ill from the environment and conducting yourself in such a way that you seem to want to get sick. If you willingly or consent to risk yourself by exposing intimate parts of your body to potential source of germs, then don't be surprised when it hits you.
As much as we advocate safe sex in this modern age, there will always be those who ignore this practice and just do what they please. It just goes to show you that human as a group isn't all that smart.
You wouldn't think of sharing your underwear with other people, would you? And this is an item you wear on the DIRTY end of your body, where the organs there have been surrounded by the nasty stuff since the day you were born. Now why would you let someone leave his saliva on something that will enter your mouth - the most sensitive part of your body and the organ we are taught to look since we are old enough to brush teeth?
I mean, what power does the student really have? There is an inequality of power here. The young student doesn't want to enrage or embarrass the teacher because after all the teacher is a figure of authority in his eyes. If the teacher doesn't take the time and effort to disinfect the mouthpiece/reed before giving it back to the student, most students aren't going to clean it right there in front of the teacher for fear of embarrassing the teacher, in most cases the student will just have to "swallow" it (literally). Hence: the yuck! reaction. The onus is really on the teacher to avoid this practice all together. Disinfect it after your use, and demand that the student do the same. Sharing mouthpiece/reeds is less of an issue if proper precaution is taken, to show a degree of duty of care. Better yet, teach right from the beginning how mouthpiece/reeds work, so that the student can take care of this aspect himself as early as possible.
Post Edited (2007-06-20 16:49)
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-20 19:06
I would rather kiss my dog than share someone's mouthpiece/reed.
It's more sterile.........
Have some common sense, You don't share your toothbrush with your teacher, you shouldn't share a dirty mouthpiece.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 19:16
Who says "dirty mouthpiece"? You can simply rinse it with water (I'd do it before and after handing my instrument over for checking, just a question of style), but resorting to swabbing alcohol etc is a bit exaggerated IMHO.
You don't do that with dishes and cutlery either, after all.
--
Ben
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-20 19:24
tictactux, You DO use heat and soap with dishes. But heat doesn't seem to do so well with reeds and mouthpieces ........
But next time at a restaurant if my fork falls on the floor, I'll look and see if you are done eating and borrow yours.
;)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 19:44
I don't really have a problem with that. Before I got married, I assumed that any dry towel is a clean towel and didn't wonder how on earth you can clean dirty dishes in dirty water with a dirty rag. Heck, when I dropped my fork I picked it up, wiped it on the napkin and resumed eating. I was a barbarian.
Needless to say, I never was sick beyond the usual children's diseases and a flu every decade.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-20 19:50
"I would rather kiss my dog than share someone's mouthpiece/reed."
Even if your dog has just finished licking it's you-know-what?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-20 20:00
Even then, the dogs mouth is more sterile. But no, I give her a chance to gulp down some water before taking the hit.
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-20 20:21
Katelyn,
Re: "If the teacher is sick, whether it be a cold, gum disease, herpes or whatever, he won't ask to play your instrument." assumes good judgment on the part of the teacher, and awareness of being infected.
Assuming has its risks; e.g., there have been reports of how doctors' stethoscopes, which we all assume to be clean, are big germ spreaders.
So I don't understand why so many writers could be comfortable with the cleanliness of the upper end of a stranger's respiratory-digestive system. I suppose it could be explained by "familiarity breeds comfort", as social psychologists say.
Good luck to all those who want to take unnecessary risks and gamble with their health. Periodontists need your business.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 20:23
I'd just like to say what goes on in the profession, when real players are interested in each others equipment.
Though perhaps some eminent players are overly fastidious, I have to say that I've never met them. Most of them are willing to have other serious players try their setups, and want themselves to try the setups of others. Even Karl Leister tried my period basset-clarinet setup, and on another occasion offered to let me try his.
The trio Clarone were equally amenable, and so Reiner gave me the opportunity to play a 'properly set up' Wurlitzer for the first time.
Some of you should realise the extent to which you trivialise the whole business of collaboration towards the goal of excellence, in your rush to post something that you can PLAUSIBLY say.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-06-20 21:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-20 20:45
I could only diagnose a colleague's mouthpiece was leaking by playing it, and by doing a vacuum test.
We're all going to pick up germs in one way or another, so it's nothing to lose sleep over if you've tried someone else's (or they've tried your) clarinet.
Only a couple of hours ago I was swapping mouthpieces with another player to see if they were the cause of her basset horn trouble - and the mouthpiece did make a difference. Had we not done this, then her journey would have been a waste of time as we drew a conclusion to an immediate problem.
How many flautists try each other's headjoints out, and how many flute specialists don't sterilise each headjoint after it's been tried? Loads of 'em. Has anyone died? No.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-20 20:50
Sure, many do that, "real" players or otherwise. Because what are the alternatives? Saying no to a friend, colleague, or acquaintance, and thus causing a scene, embarrassment and a degree of discomfort to all? It's all about social norms; when in Rome… There are risks that one must take to remain accepted in the social circle of his choice, we all do it, but it doesn't mean that deep inside, the person doesn't know any better. We just cross our fingers, say a quick prayer, and carry on.
Post Edited (2007-06-20 20:55)
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-20 21:16
-- "Has anyone died? No." --
From Wikipedia:
"The Black Death, or Black Plague, was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history. It began in south-western Asia and spread to Europe by the late 1340s coinciding with the increased use of shawms and other double reed instruments.
There is some controversy over the identity of the disease, but in its virulent form it seems to have disappeared from Europe in the 18th century when musicians stopped sharing reeds."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Text may have been edited somewhat. ;-)
Steve
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 21:16
BassetHorn wrote:
>> Sure, many do that, "real" players or otherwise.>>
I should say that what I mean by a 'real' player is, someone who is committed to playing as well as possible. It can occur on every level of ability.
>> There are risks that one must take to remain accepted in the social circle of his choice...>>
But I'm ALREADY in the circle of commitment I describe above. It's not a SOCIAL circle, it's an alignment of purpose.
>>...we all do it, but it doesn't mean that deep inside, the person doesn't know any better.>>
You think that your fastidiousness is DEEP? And BETTER???
>> We just cross our fingers, say a quick prayer, and carry on.>>
And then complain about it.
I'm not impressed. Perhaps you should do something else.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-06-20 21:19)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-20 21:20
-- "Has anyone died? No." --
From Wikipedia:
"The Black Death, or Black Plague, was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history. It began in south-western Asia and spread to Europe by the late 1340s coinciding with the increased use of shawms and other double reed instruments.
There is some controversy over the identity of the disease, but in its virulent form it seems to have disappeared from Europe in the 18th century when musicians stopped sharing reeds."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Text may have been edited somewhat. ;-)
Steve
No mention of single-reeds or mouthpieces there!
Clarinets (and saxes) are safe! Spread the word - share and share alike!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-20 21:55
This is a discussion forum where a given topic should welcome opposing views should that be the case. Personal attacks isn't very professional.
Post Edited (2007-06-20 22:01)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-20 22:08
BassetHorn wrote:
>> This is a discussion forum where a given top should welcome opposing views should that be the case. Personal attacks isn't very professional.>>
But, you see, I don't have the same view of the purpose of this forum as you do.
Some people think that the virtue of the Internet is that it allows everybody to 'have their say'.
I, on the other hand, think that the virtue of the Internet is that it provides the opportunity for the rubbish that people so often produce to be attacked, and for the participants in any particular forum to learn from the to and fro of it.
THAT'S what I count as professional -- as it is in the world of science.
Tony
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-20 22:39
Tony Pay wrote:
> BassetHorn wrote:
>
> >> This is a discussion forum where a given top should welcome
> opposing views should that be the case. Personal attacks isn't
> very professional.>>
>
> But, you see, I don't have the same view of the purpose of this
> forum as you do.
>
> Some people think that the virtue of the Internet is that it
> allows everybody to 'have their say'.
>
> I, on the other hand, think that the virtue of the Internet is
> that it provides the opportunity for the rubbish that people so
> often produce to be attacked, and for the participants in any
> particular forum to learn from the to and fro of it.
>
> Tony
Those of you who posted on this topic and who happen to hold a different point of view than Mr. Pay, I think you collectively just got slapped in the face.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-20 22:57
Blimey! They'll be saying smoking is harmful next!
Shame really, as I like my bacon smoked.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-06-20 22:58)
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2007-06-20 23:12
I like BobD's answer of the mouthpiece condom (and I too hope that Dr Henderson reads the suggestion). Just thinking of some of the topics that would result on this bulletin board...great stuff.
When I was in high school, my teacher, Alan Balter used to play my set-up...a nasty HS* mouthpiece with a nastier vandoren reed. I still remember the sound that he got out of that. I never heard him play his clarinet in my lessons, but the sound he used to get out of mine still inspires me 35 years later. It was worth whatever risk of whatever that could have been there.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-06-20 23:34
I don't think anyone suggested that mouthpiece shouldn't be shared per se; we all know that this is in many cases unavoidable, rather that some attempt of cleaning it should be done to it between exchanges, gosh, isn't this for your own benefit afterall?
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-20 23:59
Getting sick by sharing equipment may be uncommon, but according to Wikipedia here is a list of diseases that can be transmitted orally.
Bacterial Meningitis
Chickenpox
Common cold
Influenza
Mumps
Strep throat
Tuberculosis
Measles
Rubella
Whooping cough
Cytomegalovirus infections
Herpes simplex virus (especially HSV-1)
Mononucleosis
I would guess that SARS could be added to the list. It was so highly contagious that a nurse who touched her protective mask became infected and died later from the infectious agent that had accumulated there during Toronto's epidemic.
Most of us would probably prefer not to risk these infections just to save someone from a minor inconvenience, like cleaning a mouthpiece, compared to a lifetime of cold sores, or worse.
The real issue is keeping the risk of infection to a reasonable minimum. In other aspects of daily living, this is done by things like handwashing, which no one would take issue with, and I don't understand why anyone would think that the principle should not extend to clarinet mouthpieces.
Chris P, was there some reason that the mouthpiece could not be cleaned before testing?
Hans
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-21 01:17
And you teachers should be careful, too. How do I know that my 10 year old student is not going to opium dens and associating with those that associate!! Ahh! Ahhh!
That little HUSSY!
I look at this thread and see it a different way since I work in Tokyo and take the morning trains to work- the trains that are so crowded one can't see thier own FEET!!! Last month the man directly behind me, SNEEZED on my shoulder. Did I get sick? You bet I did.
Post Edited (2014-07-14 01:37)
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-06-21 02:36
This is a very entertaining thread, I must say! Love it! I do believe in trying a student's equipment just once in a great while, especially when teaching about reed adjustment or when suggesting a new mouthpiece or barrel or such thing. I guess I used to worry about diseases years ago when a teacher would play my stuff. In fact, I did get sick a few years ago from flu/bronchitis and it could have been from the clarinet teacher playing my equipment, I think the bug did go around the studio. But, I usually gain some insight, especially the lessons he taught me about reed adjustment. It would be nice to gain this kind of insight without risking infection. So, what kind of product would you use that is effective and doesn't change the way the reed/mouthpiece plays and doesn't taste bad and is convenient and portable? Is there something different you can use on the clarinet keys, or is that going overboard?
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-06-21 04:13
> > BassetHorn wrote:
> > >> Personal attacks aren't very professional.
> Tony Pay responded:
> > I, on the other hand, think that the virtue of the Internet is
> > that it provides the opportunity for the rubbish that people so
> > often produce to be attacked, and for the participants in any
> > particular forum to learn from the to and fro of it.
Tony, attacking the rubbish idea is a fine thing. Attacking the person who produce it is not. That was BassetHorn's point.
> Those of you who posted on this topic and who happen to hold a
> different point of view than Mr. Pay, I think you collectively
> just got slapped in the face.
It's the Internet, people get carried away. Tony is someone who gets carried away. He's also someone with lots of solid knowledge to benefit from.
Consider the source, winnow the benficial information out from the personal ranting and benefit greatly. Get distracted by the chaff of personal stuff, lose the benefit of being here.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-21 05:57
"Chris P, was there some reason that the mouthpiece could not be cleaned before testing?"
No reason really, nor any objections on all parts.
Come to think of it, how many dealers thoroughly clean all their mouthpieces after people test them?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2007-06-21 06:59
What a fantastic load of responses!
Here is the scenario. I just graduated from uni and (as all budding professional clarinettists find they do once graduated...) have just started teaching. One school I'm at just gave me 9 fresh new students andone hour to teach them so I spilt them into a group of 4 and a group of 5.
Now, during the very first lesson, fresh reeds, fresh mouthpieces but very old school loan instruments, one student couldn't make a noise out of her instrument. I thought to myself - is it the mouthpiece? Is it the reed? The instrument? (and to make a little excuse for myself, I was a little stressed having only ever dealt with one on one tuition before - the noise was, well, I'm sure you can all imagine how 4 enthusiastic, 11 year old, beginner clarinettists sound when they just realise how to make it work!) So, I just grabbed this student's clarinet, wiped it off with my fingers (as I have done and seen done a million times), placed it in my mouth and blew. It worked, I wiped it off again and handed it back to her.
The next week the head of department pulled me aside with a letter of complaint from the student's mother. Thank GOD my head of dept is a clarinettist so she understood but suggested that I find out a perhaps more hygienic way of doing this (and let her know of course).
To all those interested, the best solution I have heard (apart from 'don't do it') is a small spray bottle filled with Listerine mouth wash - spray both mouthpiece and reed before and after and wipe. It goes along the same line as the alcohol swab but is probably a little yummier.
It is a really tough problem because when you come across a new student with some random, home-made mouthpiece their old teacher gave them and they are making a crap sound you just have no idea what is going on unless you try it yourself.
So thanks for responding! It's been enlightening! (and reassuring!).
Also, a side point worth making...(as I have indeed spent quite a bit of time reflecting on this issue), perhaps it could be worth using a double embouchure if you have to use someone else's instrument to check the set-up. Now, I know the lips are located directly near all the gooey saliva stuff but this would certainly minimise the direct contact between reed / mouthpiece and the inside of the mouth, especially if you used a huff start rather than a toungued start to avoid touching the reed as well...just a thought...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-06-21 10:50
Jacqueline wrote:
> To all those interested, the best solution I have heard (apart
> from 'don't do it') is a small spray bottle filled with
> Listerine mouth wash - spray both mouthpiece and reed before
> and after and wipe.
What that really does is just make everyone feel good. If it worked well we'd not be needing autoclaves in doctor's offices. Even then ... there's Strain 121.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-21 11:28
> What that really does is just make everyone feel good.
That's all that seems to count... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-21 12:03
A 'real' player could easily have an alcohol swab in his case for the chance to play a colleagues setup. Real world it probably doesn't happen for Pay to try Leister's setup and clean the reed, mouthpiece, but hopefully Leister is taking care when trying his students setup that it is clean. So it's just between Pay and Leister, not each and every student of Pay and each and every student of Leister. I've tried several major players (recording artists, Principal Big 5 Orchestra) setups and no, I didn't use a swab for theirs, they didn't use a swab for mine, but both of us assumed that we weren't harboring any illness.
You don't want to have to live life in a "bubble", but there are reasonable cares which can be taken when teaching students. Reminds me of the George Carlin joke about germs and building tolerance for them. He said that he used to as a kid swim in one of the big NYC rivers and got his immune system tempered in s*#&. There is something to be said for that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-21 12:17
If I have my clarinet or whatnot with me, then I'll use my own mouthpiece or reed to test someone else's instrument after bending a few keys back into place. If not, then I'll use their set-up with their permission, asking them "Do you mind if I have a quick blow on it to see if it's working now?"
Even though everyone seems to be over-cautious of catching the slightest thing nowadays, I've never encountered anyone over a certain age reluctant to trying out my or letting me try their set-up - it's just the young ones that seem to have been brought up in an age of fear of just about everything that are the squeamish ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-21 12:36
If an alcohol swab, or Listerine are so effective, then how come dentists must autoclave?
Are these treatments REALLY effective (against bacteria, viruses, related spores, and fungi), or do we just feel good BELIEVING they are.
I haven't bothered a lot myself. A micro-organism expert at a hospital suggested to me that you'd have to be kidding if you thought such treatments sterilised.
That anything really effective would destroy the mouthpiece. A local shop had a group of mouthpieces autoclaved, and that was the end of them.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-21 12:38
> That anything really effective would destroy the mouthpiece. A local shop
> had a group of mouthpieces autoclaved, and that was the end of them.
Mine survived the dishwasher. (But that's not exactly sterilizing)
--
Ben
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-21 13:20
Dentists are dealing with blood and a direct line into the patients blood stream .........
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-21 15:24
- "A micro-organism expert at a hospital suggested to me that you'd have to be kidding if you thought such treatments sterilised. " --
He's absolutely right. We've used 70% ethanol for years to clean up on lab benches, but it isn't the same as sterilising. Note that is has to be 70%. Pure alcohol isn't as effective.
For routine work, we use a combination of autoclaving and strong UV light.
These listerine and antibacterial mouthwashes/soaps are a bit of a joke. If they were that good, they wouldn't be allowed anywhere near your skin!
Steve
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-06-21 16:38
All you need to do is ask the student. The very few times I've tried someone's setup I have asked. They've all been ok with it. Of course, this is after I've gotten to know them. I've never played a horn on the kid's first lesson.
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Author: SavvyClarinet
Date: 2007-06-21 18:08
Sharing mp's and reeds is not the most sanitary thing to do, but sometimes there are no ways around it. When I was a freshman, my two best friends and I had to play my Eb clarinet for a song apiece. Because I had an Eb and they didn't, we shared the instrument, mp and all. It wasn't bad since we were so close, but I've also had some bad experiences with this. When we were traveling for a band contest, I got very sick, and they still had to play the Eb for their songs. With no extra mp's, they had no choice. They didn't mind, but they both got my illness and had to miss a few days of school.
Now that I think about it, it could have been the ice cream we all shared. Or the water bottles. Or maybe the spoons we shared when we split food. I agree with everyone who advised not to use the same equipment if the other person obviously has something contagious, but you should probably ask them anyways for "hidden" dangers and disinfect thoroughly.
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-06-21 19:45
I cannot believe this thread. Though this is entertaining.
"I say live on the edge share mouthpieces."
Well put.
CA
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-06-22 00:44
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> If an alcohol swab, or Listerine are so effective, then how
> come dentists must autoclave?
Because they are coming in direct contact with the patients bloodstream.
> I haven't bothered a lot myself. A micro-organism expert at a
> hospital suggested to me that you'd have to be kidding if you
> thought such treatments sterilised.
Consider the difference between sterilization and sanitation. For this situation one needs sanitation - a level at which the population of malicious microbes is so low that the normal immune response can dispense with them. Leaving your mouthpiece out in the open air will keep it sanitized but not sterilized.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2007-06-22 01:23
Oh my goodness, the best idea just popped into my head...if we all simply use alcohol to sterilise your mouth, then sterilise the mouthpiece in a small glass of it and then once finished sterilise your mouth again...I think we could all use this as a legitimate excuse for carrying a hip flask full of neat vodka to our lessons...god knows I've needed THAT a couple of times already (heeheee)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-22 04:25
My first serious contribution to this thread- Ferree's Tools sells products called "Sanimist" and "Sterisol". Do these really work or are they just "to feel good"?
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-06-22 05:58
Jacqueline wrote:
> Oh my goodness, the best idea just popped into my head...if we
> all simply use alcohol to
> [snip]
> I think we could all use this as a
> legitimate excuse for carrying a hip flask full of neat vodka
I'd prefer gin, or single malt. But then I'd feel obligated to share.
Hmmm, that wouldn't work with 6th graders.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-22 06:27
-- "But the vodka is not 70%!
And is ethanol the appropriate alcohol?" --
Even at 40 or 50% (blue smirnoff), it will still help, but won't be nearly as effective.
Any other alcohol would probably do, but ethanol is the easiest to obtain and the safest for humans. Methanol and propanol are very toxic.
For 70% ethanol to work, it should really be in contact with the surfaces long enough for it to reach all the bacteria in the crevices, corners etc. The alcohol needs time to soak into the bugs and kill them.
One reason why I find these alcohol sani-wipe things for hands a bit funny. Without a doubt, the best way to clean hands is a traditional wash with soap under running water. The alcohol in wipes will evaporate before it reaches into the small skin creases.
As for sharing reeds and MPs, I reckon a quick wipe with a damp tissue would be sufficient.
Steve
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-22 11:22
TAlk about killing... (off topic) ...
I once put a weta in a capped jar of water overnight. It didn't die.
So I put it in a jar of methylated spirits overnight. It didn't die.
So I put it in a jar of Liquified Petroeum Gas. It didn't die.
I hope these are never DNA spliced to grow a thousand times larger.
See http://whyfiles.org/shorties/198grasshopper/images/weta2a.jpg
Gruesome beast! Imagine one in your mouthpiece.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-22 17:20
- "I once put a weta in a capped jar of water overnight. It didn't die.
So I put it in a jar of methylated spirits overnight. It didn't die.
So I put it in a jar of Liquified Petroeum Gas. It didn't die.
I hope these are never DNA spliced to grow a thousand times larger." --
I believe Omar (The Doc) is working on it!
But thanks for letting us know what you do in your spare time. Some of us watch tv. ;-)
Steve
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-26 06:17
Post moved to new thread, 'Is and Ought'
Tony
Post Edited (2007-06-26 10:59)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-26 12:09
Common sense helps. Most of us appreciate that teachers need to try their students' setups. We also realize that Listerine, Sterisol and similar cold sterilants don't sterilize, and we realize we can't autoclave our mouthpieces and reeds or completely sterilize them in any other way without destroying them. Anyhow, most of us aren't as fretful about these things as Adrian Monk--although I do think the writers' choice of instruments for him was inspired! ;-)
But a large part of what makes germs contagious isn't just their presence: It's their number. That's where the so-called cold sterilants, such as Sterisol and Listerine, come in. They don't sterilize, but they do kill enough bugs to considerably reduce the *number* of germs--and knocking down the numbers is highly worthwhile. The normal immune system can (and does, every day) deal with quite a hefty pathogen load. But from a mouthpiece (or French kissing), we can get a sudden infusion of fresh bugs in large enough numbers that a healthy immune system needs some help to fend them off.
Most of those bugs are reasonably benign, but a musician who travels a lot may come home with something that's a problem not because it's SARS or bird flu or drug-resistant TB or whatever scare comes next, but simply bcause it's new. The teacher who travels to perform may have developed immunity that the kid hasn't got (and may be able to travel so much in the first place because the teacher is lucky enough to have inherited a particularly strong immune system). It might not be a major problem for the healthy young clarinet student to get sick with some new bug for a few days, but when the student passes the bug along, it could kill his sister's unborn baby or his elderly grandfather. We have a responsibility to each other to take reasonable, practical steps to avoid spreading infections.
Keeping some Listerine or Sterisol on hand just isn't a big deal. It's not time-consuming to use the stuff. Why not do something that simple to reduce the risk?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-26 12:25
You're more likely to get ill just by travelling on a plane with recirculated cabin air than playing someone else's clarinet. And FAR more likely to pick up something sitting in a doctor's or a hospital waiting room for longer than you needed to due to them running late.
This Sunday just gone I borrowed a colleague's tenor and used her mouthpiece (but I did use a fresh reed) - though she did warn me in advance that it's pretty skanky and could do with a clean. Skanky was puting it politely! So I washed it (it's a metal Selmer mouthpiece) in hot water with plenty of soap to get all the crud out, as well as pushing tissue paper up inside to shift the gunk.
Chances are this is the first time this mouthpiece has been cleaned as it was beyond filthy, and the player in question doesn't like mouthpiece cushions as they harbour bacteria(!) and doesn't believe in using pad savers in her saxes after playing as they allegedly do more harm than good. I've used them for 20 years with no problems, and keep my mouthpieces visibly clean - a dip in kettle descaler removes any mineral deposits that build up, and then a good wash with handwash and a final rinse makes them gleam.
After I used her tenor and mouthpiece I just handed it back to her without washing it. I didn't have time as I was playing. And she was playing my bari sax with my set-up while I was playing her tenor, then we switched back - without sterilising our mouthpieces. And I'm typing this so I haven't fallen foul of the lurgies.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-06-26 12:30)
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Author: Grant
Date: 2007-06-26 14:56
My college clarinet professor often would often choose a reed for me by playing it on my mouthpiece. They were some of the best reeds of my life. I also had a friend who gave me her rejects. Some of them were also great lipstick and all. I had no shame when it came to getting a better reed in those days. I was also usually broke. I don't remember catching any thing from them.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-06-26 19:02
you also forgot Staff infection
and as well
Strep throat is also in the form of A and B Streptococis
I will also warn there are alot of drug resistant bacteria about...
http://www.nhpr.org/node/12267
http://www.idsociety.org/Content/NavigationMenu/News_Room1/Bad_Bugs_Need_Drugs/IDSA_Releases_Hit_List_Of_Dangerous_Bugs.htm
I will not hesitate to add that the throat is a great area for a bacteria to hatch and is really the front line of how we become quite ill...many people underestimate the seriousness of illness...but many of my Doctor freinds say the trend towards life threatening bacterial related illness is on the increase. Staff infection in hospitals is rampant across North America...
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-06-26 19:19)
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