 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-05-31 22:14
I am a college clarinetist and pretty serious about performing. I have always thought that silver keys are the way to go. They offer a softer touch and I think allow for quicker and quieter fingering. This I figured made silver a better choice than the harder nickel keys. That is until recently, my friend purchased an R13 with nickel keys. He said his private instructor (who studies with Burt Hara) told him that Burt prefers nickel keys because they enhance the tone.
Do you have a preference? And why?
Another side question:
what brands/models of Eb clarinets are good? I don't mean for beginners, I mean professional symphony player quality.
Thanks! =)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-31 23:25
You spelled the forbidden words!
Oh, I see you're the Forum Owner. <blush>
Edit: I was about to suggest to paint the keys black (or to wrap the barrel in fur) for a darker tone. But will that add do buoyancy?
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-05-31 23:38)
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Author: William
Date: 2007-05-31 23:28
IMO, the plating of your keys has nothing to do with technique or tone quality, but only cosmetic--or pleasing to the eye. I like silver or gold because they both look great and will not wear away and become ugly like nickel. Silver or gold, when it does become dull, may be polished back to its original sheen. When nickel wears away, there is nothing you can do short of having the offending key replated. But having any effect on tone quality or technical "touch"--nickel, silver and gold--or any other exotic plating--will all play and sound the same. Technique and tone quality are mostly up to you and how well you play. If diamonds imbedded in my bell would enable me to play and sound like Pete Fountain, I would buy as many as necessary. Fortunately for my pocket book, they don't--just like growing a beard didn't make me sound like Chuck Hedges. Get the idea???
The only reason I like silver is for looks--period. What I sound like is up to me, not my equipement.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-06-01 00:06
Ok, let's answer this with some decorum. I had at one point really loved the heavy keywork of my old Selmer 10G because it seemed that the weight made them less "clacky." William Brannen straightened me out in a big way with an overhaul that demonstrated the art of good spring adjustment and heavier key oil. Attention to these two areas achieve quiet action with any sort of keywork. The other side of the spectrum for me was a Wurlitzer 1010 that has solid silver keys that were ferociously noisy once out of adjustment.
As for the metal itself, you will find reference to gold achieving a warmer sound in the Yamaha description of their CSG clarinets with Hamilton plating (alloy of nickel and gold....only a thin few microns of plating to boot) but this is, I am afraid, a description that will only get them more criticism than the much deserved praise the horns should have on the merit of how they play. The type of metal used for the keys only makes a difference in the "feel" of the keys, the color, and in the case of gold, resistance to corrosion.
By the way, William, have you ever actually had to polish real GOLD???
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2007-06-01 00:09)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-01 00:25
The plating can feel different. And I really mean "feel" different to the fingers. I personally, don't like the feeling of Nickle as it starts to come off and pitt it feels horrible. For that reason I like silver.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-06-01 01:37
I am not sure I prefer one over the other. I have had favorite clarinets that had nickel and favorites that had silver. The whole package makes more of a difference to me. Some people say nickle is slippery and their fingers slip off the keys. Others like myself, can't really tell "feel wise". Nickle does wear off easier and silver does look nicer longer but that is not worth a price difference to me. Yamaha claims their Hamilton plated keys enhance tone but the results are ify and I can't imagine that it would make a noticable difference so tone enhancement between nickle and silver sounds doubtful also. I think "whatever floats your boat" is about the most sensible answer.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-06-01 02:08
your throat and oral cavity will enhance your tone.
if/when you have your clarinets overhauled or repadded, consider NOT having the keys polished.
Highly polished nickel keys tend to be slippery while dulled nickel keys prodvide a more positive feel.
of course, the natural dulling of nickel takes years
1959 Selmer eefer or one from the late 50's.
regards
dennis
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-06-01 06:36
i have an old Buffet R13 eflat clarinet... several experienced players have tried it and agree that it sounds great- of course the player is making the sound, but this instrument makes it easier to achieve a sound we consider pleasing. One friend was annoyed to find it clearly sounded much better than her new/expensive brannenised eefer....
The keys are silver plated, but on many keys the plating is flaking off- i believe partially as a result of a poorly done re-plate job a couple of decades ago... soooo
From this we could perhaps deduce that to get a REALLY good tone on your clarinet it should not have nickel or silver, but in fact plating that is peeling off!
(i am kidding!)
keep playing the good tunes
donald
ps- you will find in the archives a number of prior threads discussing the plating on keys
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-01 06:53
Hans Moennig supposedly stopped selling R-13's after about #125,000 because of the changes that had been made to the keywork and springs, as well as the fact that he could no longer order clarinets with unplated keys (which he felt were not as slippery as nickel or silver, and easier to file and bend)...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-01 08:36
Nickel or silver won't make any difference to the tone of the clarinet. In my experience both alst very long, but silver longer. I heard from some people that had the nickel or even silver peel off very fast because of their skin, that hasn't been a problem for me, so I can't compare nickel and silver in that regard. If I rub my finger on a nickel key it does feel smoother and less friction than silver. When I actually play a clarinet I feel almost no difference between nickel and silver.
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Author: RAB
Date: 2007-06-01 12:23
Plating will not affect the tone color of the instrument,
If you "think" that silver produces a certain sound then you will listen for that sound an perhaps lean toward producing that sound. Plating will affect the "feel" of the instrument. If you tend to perspire then the silver or gold will "grip" better than the nickel will, Depending on the acidity of your body the plating will wear. some people eat through silver while other body compositions will eat through silver or gold. it is a personal matter.
RAB
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-01 13:15
Silver is much more non-slip.
No difference in the sound whatsoever. I do believe that wood differences affect tone so I am in the camp of materials, but the plating of a key doesn't affect the tone whatsoever.
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Author: ElBlufer
Date: 2007-06-01 14:00
I have had a nickel-lated R13 for about 18 months, and the plating has already begun to wear down. With that being the case, I would recommend that you buy an instrument with silver-plated keys. That is only my opinion though.
My Setup:
R13 Clarinet (Ridenour Lyrique as my backup/marching instrument)
Walter Grabner K11 mouthpiece
Rico Reserve 3.5's
Bonade ligature
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-06-01 19:55
I agree with ElBlufer above, I've found the nickel-plating on all the R-13s I've owned with nickel-plated keys wear quickly and the silver-plated do not. I got rid of the last R-13 nickel-plated version about 11 mos. after I bought it because it was already beginning to show wear on a couple of keys. I don't have highly acidic skin or oily, just fairly normal, and I didn't play the instrument every day.
I prefer silver-plated keys except when is not available. For instance, my Lyrique clarinet from Tom Ridenour is nickel plated, and being a non-wood instrument I doubt he'll be making silver-plated keys any time soon. But, my wood professional instruments are silver-plated.
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2007-06-02 13:42
Wow, many people made the statement, "Nickel or silver will not affect the tone of the clarinet." Burt Hara does think that Nickel plated keys sound better, as does my old teacher, Frank Kowalsky. There was one other person who liked the way silver plated keys sounded more, Harold Wright. With those kinds of names, I'd be inclined to think it DOES affect the sound. However, when I get my next set of clarinets, I'll probably try all of them. I'd rather get an R-13 with superior wood than one with a specific key plating, but all things equal, I'm going to lean toward Nickel-plated. Plus, they're cheaper. Cheaper+sounds better=good for me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-06-02 13:46
orchestr wrote:
> Burt Hara does think that
> Nickel plated keys sound better, as does my old teacher, Frank
> Kowalsky. There was one other person who liked the way silver
> plated keys sounded more, Harold Wright. With those kinds of
> names, I'd be inclined to think it DOES affect the sound.
But it matters not.
If every clarinet you like happens to have silver plated keys then you might jump to the conclusion that its the silver plated keys that make the difference.
You might be right. You might be wrong.
But it matters not. You buy the clarinet you like.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-02 14:05
"Hans Moennig supposedly stopped selling R-13's after about #125,000 because of the changes that had been made to the keywork and springs, as well as the fact that he could no longer order clarinets with unplated keys (which he felt were not as slippery as nickel or silver, and easier to file and bend)...GBK"
And that's the beauty of unplated nickel silver keys - there's no plating to worry about if keywork alterations or repairs involving silver soldering are done, and after the work is done it's ready to go back on after being cleaned up and polished instead of having to send it off to be plated, leaving the clarinet out of action in the interim.
Nickel plated keys are a pain to do preparation work on (prior to being replated) due to it's hardness - trying to blend nickel into the softer base metal isn't easy, especially on pitted or worn keywork as the softer nickel silver is removed more easily than the nickel plate leaving a raised area at the edge of the plating where the nickel has worn which is to be avoided. Files will just skate over nickel if it's applied thickly, and barrel friases and reamers are easily blunted by nickel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-06-02 16:06
There is also platinum and chromium. I began , in 1935, on a chrome-plated metal clarinet, Greville, made in France. I have not seen chrome on keys of wood clarinets. I wonder why. Ridenour offered platinum on his Ariosos for a short time. Gold of less than 24kt does show noticable discolorization unless polished.
richard smith
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Author: William
Date: 2007-06-02 16:12
Paul A asked, "By the way, William, have you ever actually had to polish real GOLD??"
No. I only use my gold plated R13 for jazz gigs--matches my saxes :>)--so it does not get "everyday" use. Usually just wipe it down with a soft cloth once in a while, but other than that, no special polishing, buffing, etc. The gold has held up quite well going on 16 yrs now and looks just like new.
And to further address the original posting, my first set of R13s (1964) were initially nickel plated which, unfortunatly, quickly began to wear away. After graduation and with the income from my new teaching job, I decided to "splurg" and have both the Bb and the A silver plated "for looks". That was in the early 70's and today, both of those vintage Buffets still look almost like new. BUT THE BIG NEWS IS, the silver plating DID NOT change the way they sounded nor the way they played. So, based on my own experiance, I must conclude that although Burt Hara is a talented clarinetist, he is wrong on plating having any effect--positive or negative--on the tone quality of the clarinet. Silver or Nickel--they both sound the same. And because silver is so durable, although initially more costly, it may be cheaper in the "long run".
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-06-02 20:14
If nickle plated keys are too slippery for comfort, one can brush on clear nail polish on them and they will feel great!
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Author: Avie
Date: 2007-06-02 21:49
Their are numerous posts on the pros and cons of the looks, feel, and effect of tone between silver and nickle keys. I prefer nickle with black and silver with natural wood. You could probably adapt to either one and I dont think either one would have an effect on the performance.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-02 23:00
I think silver with shiny jet black plastic has a certain charm about it - almost like some kind of Art Deco something-or-other in a funny sort of way.
But I reckon silver goes much better with rosewood than gold - same with logos - silver for rosewood or cocobolo looks much better than gold. Yamaha bassoons with their silver logos look right dead classy like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-02 23:31
Yeah, gold's way too 'bling' for my liking.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-06-03 00:51
i guess if you are trying to stand out a little with appearance you could go for a rosewood clarinet, or an unstained grenedilla. i happen to like the appearance of unstained grenedilla wood.
back to my original topic...
i would say that it seems to be pretty split over nickel and silver with a mix of "whatever you like is best" I think i will take that side. so if you try a bunch of clarinets, and you like the one with nickel keys for any number of reasons you should get it.
maybe we could change the topic to a discussion of all materials. I actually had no idea they produced clarinets with unfinished or platinum keys. what material do you like, think is best, or make a proposal for a new material!
neal
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-03 11:02
Unplated solid silver keys!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-06-03 12:16
clear plastic, with round curly springs (like on a plastic sax), for that "cheap look"
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-03 16:18
Don't know what it was, but I once saw a clarinet with some sort of copper-like colour of the keys. The thing itself was made of clear plastic. (not very delicate.. who wants free insight into a clarinet in action? Don't think they sold much of that one.)
-jane
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2007-06-03 16:35
I'll simply add that some people think that changing the tenon rings to nickel changes everything. Some people think turning your bell 1/8 of a turn affects the sound. Others think pinning a crack gives the clarinet a duller sound than gluing it. I even heard someone say once that if you accidentally drop your metal ligature on a solid floor, it will never play as well! However, in an industry that demands subtlety and nuance, perhaps such a small thing as the plating of your keys really can make the difference. There's definitely a difference between nickel, silver, and gold plated ligatures. Of course, you can also go crazy with this stuff. I'd rather find something that plays decent, and spend my time practicing, rather than fine-tuning my bell position!
Post Edited (2007-06-03 16:41)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-06-03 16:38
orchestr wrote:
> There's definitely a
> difference between nickel, silver, and gold plated ligatures.
So say some people. Not all by any means.
It still comes down to what floats your boat.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-03 17:49
"Don't know what it was, but I once saw a clarinet with some sort of copper-like colour of the keys. The thing itself was made of clear plastic. (not very delicate.. who wants free insight into a clarinet in action? Don't think they sold much of that one.)"
These were a special edition Buffet B12 made in the late '80s/early '90s - exactly the same as the then standard B12 but had a perspex (plexiglass or lucite) body with copper plated keys and fittings. Surprisingly they all sold, not sure just how many were made, but the ones that were made didn't sit around in shops for long.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2007-06-03 22:38
I prefer silver plated for several reasons:
1) I enjoy the feel of silver
2) Silver stays cleaner longer (when maintained)
3) My hands are very acidic and they DESTROY nickel finish.
4) Looks great!
For Eb... try an R13. I have heard great things about the new Patricola Eb's though... I can't wait to try one myself.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Klarinet
Date: 2007-06-04 11:59
I havn't read the other comments, but I'll tell you what I think of nickel keys.
I've played on a Buffet Evette for about 8 years and it had nickel keys. In the first year I played on this instrument (which was already more then 10 years old) new nickel was put on the keys. But two years ago the nickel began to come off. That was very annoying, because when I had two rehearsals on friday evening (= 4 hours) my finger tips where all black with nickel after an hour and a half. When we took the clarinet to the music store, they said nickel keys weren't used anymore, only silver. So now I have a new clarinet, with silver keys, and as far as I now I makes absolutely no difference in sound or whatsoever.
PS: I've just read the last comment above mine and nickel that is 'destroyed' hasn't got much to do with acidid fingers. It will come of with everyone eventually. So I would say, stick with your silver plated keys, 'cause there must be a reason why my music store (in Belgium) doesn't use nickel anymore.
Greetings,
Goele
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2007-06-04 12:38
Here's another thought to throw into the mix..............
I really prefer the feel of silver UNTIL I get into a concert situation. My fingers, for some reason I have yet to understand, seem to get sticky when I play a concert. At that point I have really wished that I had nickel keys instead of silver. I don't necessarily suffer nerves on stage but I definite feel an intensity during a concert that isn't there during rehearsals.
Thoughts/recommendations/experiences?
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2007-06-04 16:46
Well to the comment above yours...
The reason that nickel keys get damaged is because of corrosion.... people with more natural acidity in their hands cause more damage to nickel keys.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: pzen
Date: 2007-06-05 06:10
Burt Hara can probably hear the difference, meer mortals can't! I am amazed at what some people can hear. Other amaturs can't believe that my son spends hours picking out a ligature, and can tell the difference between 2 of the same brand/style. But for the rest of us mortals ...
As the enabler, my only complaint about silver is that his Buffet Vintage wore thru the plating in about 4 years. When I say wore thru i don't mean the base was showing, I mean literally he was going thru the base metal. The thumb key and one of the side keys. The insturment was ripping his thumb apart when we finally had it overhauled. He has silver plating, bought the buffet new, and takes very good care of the insturment. It is in for a complet once over several times a year, and has had 2 complet overhauls in its very short life. Needless to say it is used for 4 to 6 hours a day on a daily basis, and has never been played outdoors. It has a lot of miles.
I am sure that it is the salt in his hands. He sees no difference in the functionality, and prefers the silver because it floats his boat (am I allowed to say that). He has been told that gold would wear better, but feels that only the very best should draw that type of attention to themselves.
Peace, love and understanding
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-05 11:21
"I am amazed at what some people can hear."
I am amazed at what some people THINK they can hear.
I am amazed that people do not know that humans easily confuse input from senses such as touch and sound.
I am amazed that belief can so completely override what is certainty that is unlikely ever to be proved to be wrong. (Flat earth versus globe sort of thing.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-05 11:36
What?!?!? You mean the world is spherical?
Blimey! You'll be saying there are other clarinets besides Buffet R13s next!
(puts blinkers back on)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-06-05 13:23
I've found that silver tends to give a brighter tone than nickel...nickel gives a warmer tone...but thats just me. It might just be a psychological thing because silver is a harder metal than nickel and so it just makes sense to me.
I got my R13 right when I started to get serious about playing. before that I was only playing 5 hours a week (on a good week). The instrument I was playing on back then was plated in nickel, and the keys on that instrument are more tarnished than the keys on my R13. I've only had the R13 for a year (and the other instrument for about two...ish...) ive still played on it at least twice as much as the older instrument.
Thenagain, I personally think an instrument with the plating rubbed off the Ab, A, and pinky keys looks pretty cool...but thats just me.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-05 13:45
> It might just be a psychological thing because silver is a harder metal than
> nickel and so it just makes sense to me.
Brinell Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 24.5 vs. 700
Vickers Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 251 vs. 638
Must indeed be a psychological thing.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-05 14:13
I've always found nickel to be much harder than silver too - in practice.
Again I'll say that nickel is applied much thinner than silver, and that keywork plating of any kind has no effect upon the tone of any instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-05 14:34
It's the whole "materials" debate ....... There will never be agreement on that!
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-06 14:01
<Brinell Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 24.5 vs. 700
Vickers Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 251 vs. 638
Must indeed be a psychological thing.>
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ....
<These were a special edition Buffet B12 made in the late '80s/early '90s - exactly the same as the then standard B12 but had a perspex (plexiglass or lucite) body with copper plated keys and fittings. Surprisingly they all sold, not sure just how many were made, but the ones that were made didn't sit around in shops for long.>
The things you know, Chris! I remember there were red and white ones too... we thought they were unbelievably cool back then...
-jane
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-06 17:10
I had heard that only about 1000 of the clear lucite clarinets were made. They play just like a regular plastic B-12, nothing particularly special about them except that it is a good teaching tool to show a student just how quickly the condensation in the bore builds up.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-06-06 22:44
<Brinell Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 24.5 vs. 700
Vickers Hardness of Silver vs. Nickel: 251 vs. 638>
Apparently it is psychological... :p.
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-07 06:15
Neal Raskin:
I see you live in Denver. Go to Rockley's music and ask to speak to Don Ambler. He can show you an interresting example of how properly adjusted reeds and instruments sound. He's quite a joker though, so don't let him pull a fast one on you. Same mouthpiece on for the example on both horns. You'll never be able to tell which one has the silver keys or nickel!
Don Ambler is the most amazing man I have ever had ther honor of knowing, studying with, and listening to.
Andy Stevens or Bill Jackson could show you the same thing, but Don is the man to talk to. His life experiences surpass anyone I've ever read about, or admired. Not only did he study with Anthony Gigliotti, but Daniel Bonade.
I've met and played for Burt Hara, and I could see him saying that. He is definitely somebody worth listening to. I' also heard that from somebody else when I was in High School in the late 80's. I think his name was Allen lafave, or something like that. Anyhow, I think experience will dictate your opinion on this matter.
My opinion: if I had a horn with silver plated keys that sounded good, I would not hesitate to use it. My current R-13 is nickel-plated.
I'm curious who you talked to, I probably know him, or vise versa. 
Post Edited (2007-06-07 06:17)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-07 10:07
Can any listener tell from hearing a clarinet being played (on a recording or in a concert setting) what the keywork plating is on the clarinettist's clarinet is (without knowing what instrument they're playing)? No.
And most won't be able to tell what make of clarinet is being played either.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-06-07 22:14
clarinet4hire,
I actually live in Minneapolis, MN. I am not sure why my IP says it is located in Denver...must be something with my company.
Anyway, I play on a LeBlanc Concerto II with silver plated keys. I must say that I do enjoy this horn. Thanks for your advice! Do you have any contacts in Minnesota?
Neal
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-06-08 21:33
I'm not looking for anything in particular. Do you know where I could get a metal clarinet? Just for the purpose of saying i have one.
Neal
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-09 01:34
Or if you have £50,000,000 going spare (a mere $100 million) you could commission Damien Hirst to make you a solid platinum clarinet encrusted with diamonds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-14 03:50
Sorry, I don't have anyone I know off the top of my head that has anything like that to sell.
It's funny though, when I was last in Denver to work over a few mouthpieces, my aquantance pulled out his metal clarinet with a HS* on it, and told me he actually uses it in some outside performances with the CSO. It is quite humorous, but I was surprised to hear how good it sounded.
My teacher in Denver has a metal clarinet that double as a lightstand, but knowing him, he probably still uses it too!
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