 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-05-05 22:29
I've noticed in the last few auditions for our orchestra that applicants from the USA don't mention their age in their applications. One person who was sent an email asking what their age was replied: "Why? Do you discriminate based on age?"
One recent applicant was born in 1944. The obligatory retirement age in our orchestra is 63. So if this person came and won the audition, he would immediately have to retire! :-)
Of course we discriminate based on age. Is this not the case in other countries?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-05 22:51
Liquorice wrote;
> One recent applicant was born in 1944. The obligatory
> retirement age in our orchestra is 63. So if this person
> came and won the audition, he would immediately
> have to retire! :-)
So, I assume if Stanley Drucker suddenly decided to leave the NY Phil and audition for your orchestra, he wouldn't be allowed to play.
Your loss ...GBK
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-05 22:55
Your applicants from the USA are responding in what is now the common practice here. Employers, with a few exceptions, are not allowed to take age into consideration. By law employers are prohibited from asking an applicants age.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-05-05 22:57
There was a double bass player who died few days ago here in Iceland at 75 year age and he played with the Icelandic symphony orchestra until last year. And there is no shortage of bass player here.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-05 23:06
In Japan, many of the anouncements for orchestra auditions clearly say, 'Must be born after 19xx'. the usual cut off is about 30-40.
it does take a lot of money to hold auditions and, in a way, I understand. But it would be just as easy to simply let a 62 year old audition and just not give them the job, as opposed to saying it out right. It would be easy to see that he/she were about that age.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-05-05 23:22
skygardener wrote:
> But it would be just as easy to simply let a 62
> year old audition and just not give them the job, as opposed to
> saying it out right. It would be easy to see that he/she were
> about that age.
With a screen, as used here? Not so easy to see ... And of course, would be such obvious discrimination that you'd be covered with writs.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-05-06 00:15
When an orchestra hires a player, it is an investment for the orchestra and investments provide a better return if they are made earlier in life., They simply must have the player for a number of years, and the older one gets, the more prone to illness one becomes, the statistics are overwhemingly against hiring a player approaching 50 years of age, though there are exceptions. If you take the example of Mr Drucker, he is not going to leave the NY orchestra and he is the most consistant performer probably in the history of the clarinet-symphony business. But look at when he joined the orchestra. The position was as Eb clarinetist and I have heard that he was 18 years old. That is wisdom, hiring a brilliant super-young player.
Forget about screens, for while they have them, everybody on the panel knows who is auditioning, and the majority of hires are youngish males even though there are many superb young female players. It is an exception for a woman to get the job, especially the big job. There are exceptions, perhaps the first in a major symphony being Doriot Antony Dwyer, in the Boston Symphony, a truly wonderful player, who was as is known, hired as Principal Flute after Georges Laurent.
The tradition for principal players is for men, and yes, there are exceptions, but that is the way it is; perhaps the screen knows the sex of the player, however we know that is not true. But that tradition is changing, however the prejudice toward sex is one thing, toward age may be justified, except for those principals who are moving from another principal position. The kind of stress, call it pressure on a principal player is tremendous and it only increases with age. Playing chamber music is quite different from working within a section for 8 or 10 services a week with the same group of colleagues to large critical audiences.
I may or may not believe in age discrimination, but I know it exists. There are many young players who grow old in orchestras, but a new older hire is not the rule.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-05-06 01:18
sherman wrote:
> When an orchestra hires a player, it is an investment for the
> orchestra and investments provide a better return if they are
> made earlier in life.,
Actually, Sherman, I don't see much return on the investment. The orchestra doesn't charge the customer more as the players gain experience, and the salaries of orchestral players are more or less fixed by contract.
As to a bias towards younger players - the younger players are generally those that are auditioning in the early rounds. The older or more established players who want to audition are generally invited to later rounds.
As to the screens - if someone has a distinctive sound or is a student of one of the players already in the orchestra, they will probably be identifiable.
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-05-06 01:37
"Forget about screens, for while they have them, everybody on the panel knows who is auditioning, and the majority of hires are youngish males even though there are many superb young female players."
Sherman, I said about as much in a different post a while back and really got raked over the coals for it. I don't know what the practice is these days, but back in my serious auditioning days (late 70's), we all felt that the screen was just for show - that indeed the panel knew who was auditioning when. Personally, I think the panel SHOULD know who's auditioning when - many years of high caliber playing in an orchestra should count for more than a good weekend of auditioning, IMO. I think the screen was dubious at best back then - perhaps auditions are truly "blind" these days.
If I'm in charge of hiring, I would dang well want to know who I was listening to, and I would rather hire someone who would contribute to my orchestra for many years, rather than win an audition just to retire in a few years. Too much turnover makes it hard to create an identifiable sound for the orchestra (not impossible - just more difficult).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-05-06 01:46
Mags1957 wrote:
> Personally, I think the panel SHOULD know who's auditioning
> when - many years of high caliber playing in an orchestra
> should count for more than a good weekend of auditioning, IMO.
And I'm sure it does - but someone "high-caliber" coming from another orchestra is going to have a well-defined sound that no screen would cover anyway.
And what, pray tell, would be the problem of someone with that "good weekend" (and multiple rounds) getting selected? Most orchestras have a probation period anyway, just for that purpose.
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-05-06 03:22
Regardless of "knowing who is behind the screen," I have never been on a panel that wasn't out to pick the best sounding candidate. It is easy to jump on the bandwagon and claim that the audition process is full of bias, but, if you've ever been on a committee, at least in my experience, you know this is just not true. The committee wants to pick the best player in a fair manner in 99% of all auditions, period.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-05-06 04:39
Is this the pre-school discussion group? There are so many reasons why the best player sometimes doesn't get the job, countless. What if there is a personality problem, or a problem with a marriage that could possibly damage a section or, a player that has great difficult of another kind. These things exist and they are part of the upper echelons of the music business.
Conductors have difficulties with certain of those who audition or those whom the orchestra wants. Have you all forgotten the Von Karajan/Sabine problem? Why was Gino Cioffi released from the Boston Symphony? Why was Gaston Hamelin's contract not renewed by Koussevitsky? I know of a quite wonderful young clarinetist, (the best) who was released quickly from the National Arts Center Orchestra (a great orchestra) because of a refusal on the part of the player to come up to the pitch of the woodwind section. In other words, it was personal. Conductors have tremendous power to overrule a panel. Gentlemen, let me count the ways.
Mr Charette, the person who may have the great weekend and play like a god can screw up the first concert as badly as he was great when he auditioned.
And if you don't see the return on the investment it is only because you have never played in a professional symphony and felt a section grow, mature and become like a single instrument. We call the investment the sound. If you need an example, please take the brass of the Chicago from (the 60s through the 90s)Symphony during those golden years. Building uncanny precision of pitchand unanimity of sound and attack doesn't come in the first year. This is investment.
The symbiotic relationships that grow within the section of an orchestra do not just happen with the audtion winners.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-05-06 05:26
For all the speculation about players being identifiable behind a screen, I have heard the exact opposite from every committee member I've ever talked to. They have said time and again that when you start guessing who might be on the other side, more often than not you will find yourself to be incorrect. It's not so simple to recognize a player in an audition setting.
Sherman, your examples are all from situations outside the audition realm, which is what we're discussing here. Furthermore, they are largely very old examples and from orchestras that have since grown and hopefully don't exhibit the same biases.
Also, your example of the fine young clarinetist who was released... well, I don't get that at all. If they didn't come up to the pitch of the section, they should have been fired. End of story. It doesn't sound in any way personal.
Mags, you said:
"I don't know what the practice is these days..."
Then please, let's make that as clear as possible by not letting your 30 year past experiences bleed into this more modern discussion.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-05-06 06:19
They may not ask directly how old the applcant is.
But don't they know just looking at their resume?
Doesn't resume say when they graduated from music school?
I heard that they don't hire players over certain age whether it is illigal or not.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-05-06 12:18
JJ, as you said "the audition realm". And it is just that, a realm. They may be old examples, but that is to protect the things that happen now, which should not be discussed here. That is what I don't understand. The person who would not come up to the pitch of the section. That is all about the audition system, and this is quite recent. And, as I said, it was and became a personal problem. It is my belief that this could have been forseen, and I know the situation because it was my shoulder upon which the person cried.
I have no idea of the vacant kind of thought reflected in a comment that states, "do not let your 30 year past experience bleed into this more modern discussion.
To ignore what has happened in the past is to suffer the same.
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-05-06 12:20
J.J. you wrote:
"Then please, let's make that as clear as possible by not letting your 30 year past experiences bleed into this more modern discussion."
My post contains:
"I don't know what the practice is these days, but back in my serious auditioning days (late 70's)"
"I think the screen was dubious at best back then - perhaps auditions are truly "blind" these days."
I thought that was pretty damn clear. And let's not censor the experiences of a true veteran like Sherman just because the discussion is "more modern". NO modern discussion is complete without an understanding of the history of the topic. Your comments towards him (and me, to a lesser extent) seem dismissive and insulting. Personally, I have always found Sherman's posts to be very insightful regarding the ins and outs of obtaining and keeping a professional orchestral job.
<edited for spelling>
Post Edited (2007-05-06 14:09)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-05-06 13:22
sherman wrote:
> Is this the pre-school discussion group?
How insulting. Some of us hire & fire on a regular basis; we aren't idiots, whatever you may think, and we might actually know something you don't about the business side of things. Music, after all, is a business.
Yes, of course there are some things that go on nowadays that aren't legally (or morally) acceptable - but that neither makes them right or acceptable.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-05-06 14:07
Thanks for the answers. Knowing what the rules are in the USA explains things. But we still have to find out the age of the applicants because the rules here are different.
GBK- I would personally be thrilled to have Stanley Drucker play in our orchestra (dream on!) But you have to admit that he is the exception rather than the rule. I would say that, more often than not, woodwind players over 60 don't have the same sound and technique that they used to have. Add to that hearing damage caused by a lifetime of playing in the pit, teeth and other physical problems. The older colleagues are often wonderful people with a wealth of experience and knowledge for us to learn from, but they might not make the group sound better. It may sound horrible, but we're usually relieved when somebody retires from the woodwind section.
It's very sad, and if I live long enough I'll also end up being the old guy that my younger colleagues have no patience with... :-(
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-05-06 15:41
I never said "Idiots" . I implied, extremely immature, (as in pre-reschool) of which is the regular run of commentary. with exceptions, of this site. These exceptions it seems to me, prove the rule.
Some of the brightest children attend pre-school, as do my two grand daughters.
If you wish to infer idiot, Mr Charette, you may, but it is not what I said, nor what I meant.
"Sometimes people fall into traps that never were set"
Antonio Salieri
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-05-06 15:52
Sherman, regarding the person who didn't come up to the pitch of the section, I'm assuming this was after they won an audition and during some sort of trial? In any event, you still haven't offered anything about the situation to indicate that it was personal, and not just a situation where this young player couldn't or wouldn't play in tune. The fact that they cried on your shoulder doesn't mean anything to us, if that's as specific as you're going to get. I'm confused, do you disagree that she should have been fired?
And if you need further clarification on what I said to Mags, what I'm saying is that it is wrong, yes wrong, to draw upon such old examples and present them in a way that indicates that auditions are not fair today. Whether or not she added in a line about how "maybe they are blind today, the thrust of what she was saying is that the screen meant nothing back then. The implication, then, is that it means little now. And, of course, that is entirely untrue.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-05-06 16:54
In the Israel Conservatory in Tel Aviv there is a very unusual situation;
about 25% of the teachers are around age 70-80. The tradition that this group of founders established is that you leave only when you die.
Few years ago the clarinet teacher retierd (at 70) and after I got the job he asked to come back (and he is teaching again, and even called all my students and told them that its much better for them to work with him).
The biggest problem is that they have an agreement that they will be paid for 8 hours, no matter how many students they have. Because of that ,
the consrvatory can not pay the pension for the young teachers.
Three years ago, there was a director who tried to stop it, and she was kicked out!
Discrimination is sometimes againt young people too!
Sarah
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Author: Chris22311
Date: 2007-05-06 17:46
GBK wrote:
"So, I assume if Stanley Drucker suddenly decided to leave the NY Phil and audition for your orchestra, he wouldn't be allowed to play."
With all due respect, Stanley Drucker is way past his prime. There is probably a good reason other countries have obligatory retirement ages.
Chris
Chris
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-07 03:02
Discrimination may be practiced against young folks, or it may not. However, the law here in the United States has a floor age of forty years of age or older. If you are under that age and allege discrimination, your claim will not make it past the initial screening.
One additional "fun fact" about discrimination: people of Hispanic descent are a recognized minority group, but people of Portuguese descent (including those from Brazil, who may also be partly of African descent) are not. A fine point, and somewhat reflective of which group has the ear of our government, but one that has to be made.
(I investigated discrimination stuff for the US Department of Labor for quite a few years back in the 1980's, and I still supervise a number of folks from time to time who currently do this sort of investigation. While we don't handle the EEOC issues associated with age discrimination, we do need to keep up on them.)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-05-07 04:24
Yeah, I can remember feeling that older musicans were automatically poor players, certainly not nearly as wonderful as my 20 or so year old self. I was a grand player and those old folks should just get out of my way because they were simply washed up and I wasn't. Boy, was I full of myself.
Discrimination aside, what I find insulting in many of these messages is the assumption that past age, what is it, 63 or 60 you just can't perform up to very high standards any more. It's like it is some proven fact that should be applied to an entire class or cohort.
Felonious Baloney-eous.
Take it from me, it isn't something you can just assume. The proof is in the playing, not the age.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-05-07 07:20
johng,
No one said that older people are not good. Some of them are great! its the same with young people, some are good and some are not good.
In the case of the Conservatory: the older group (and most of them are older then 75!) is terrorising everyone else. And the "young" people are not in their 20's. They are 40-50.
My father is 75 and working. I know how important it is to him and to the family. But he is working because schools in the city are begging him to work.
Sarah
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