 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2007-03-29 21:21
All of this talk of hard rubber has gotten me to remember a piece of wisdom that Richard Hawkins shared with our studio during his recent visit.
When asked whether or not swabbing a mouthpiece would ultimately change its dimensions, Hawkins responded that he had never in all of his years of work seen a mouthpiece that had been noticably altered by swabbing, and that swabbing your mouthpiece was OK to do.
Nevertheless the thought of running my swab through my mouthpiece makes me very uncomfortable...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-03-29 21:42
Hard rubber has been used for mps for many years because it is relatively "easy" to work with. As such it doesn't "wear like iron". In addition the geometry of mps is very sensitive to changes. Personally I believe the best maintainence routine is to rinse with plain water and "blow dry" with one's mouth and an occasional rinse in soapy hand soap water. I liken them to fine china or crystalware. The term "swab" means different things to different people. Chances are that most people change mps before they alter their dimensions by "swabbing".
Bob Draznik
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-29 21:48
Aaron wrote:
> Nevertheless the thought of running my swab
> through my mouthpiece makes me very uncomfortable...
Especially if your swab has a metal weight on the end of it...GBK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-29 22:34
GBK wrote:
> Especially if your swab has a metal weight on the end of
> it...GBK
Because it might be magnetic? (Mine's shrouded in the pull cord so it shouldn't do any damage).
Common sense would dictate not to pull too fast (heat from friction) nor going berserk with too big a swab. I don't see any other potential problems, but what do I know.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-29 23:47
I've seen a plastic mouthpiece (Buffet) that has been cleaned using the pullthrough, and it has raised a burr at the base of the window causing air to leak between the reed and the side rails.
As it was a cheapo Buffet plastic mouthpiece I trimmed the burr off with a scalpel which sorted things out - and it's not as if the player will be using this mouthpiece for too long anyway when they're most likely to upgrade to a Vandoren.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-03-30 01:00
I have seen a Vandoren with even more severe damage.
the clarinetist in question always dropped the weight through the bell and pulled the swab with one quick, violent tug. this person's mouthpiece had large circles worn away in the corners of the base of the window a year after they bought the mouthpiece.
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2007-03-30 05:20
Do you think that there would be a difference in durability between a Zinner Blank and whatever Vandoren uses?
Aaron
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-03-30 06:05
Yeah. One might be harder than the other, but it would still be bad for both.
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-03-30 13:10
I just slide in a corner of the swab to mop up...
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-03-30 13:20
"and it has raised a burr at the base of the window "
Many new plastic mps have such molding flash in the window.
Bob Draznik
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-03-30 13:30
Back in high school, I owned a Gigliotti mouthpiece which I used to swab after each use. Eventually, a chip came out of the lower corner of the window. I don't know whether the mouthpiece was defective to begin with or if it was caused by swabbing, but since then I have not swabbed mouthpieces, just clean them once in a while with soap and water.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-03-30 17:38
It may or may not hurt it . . . but why chance it? We know that NOT swabbing won't wear it down, so if you like your mouthpiece, don't take the chance.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-03-30 18:14
"won't wear it down" au contrare. it will build it up, usually in a layer of skin or some sort of white deposit which also distorts the sound. lose lose situation. best receipe is to just wash and soap it every once in a while.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: massa
Date: 2007-03-30 18:41
GBK wrote:
>
>> Aaron wrote:
>>
>> Nevertheless the thought of running my swab
>> through my mouthpiece makes me very uncomfortable...
>
>
> Especially if your swab has a metal weight on the end of it...
> GBK
>
I've never understood how could any sensible music stores
sell such an item. The swab with an exposed metal weight
has to be eradicated.
- m
Post Edited (2007-03-30 18:43)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-30 18:55
. . . along with the fabric mop swab with the exposed twisted metal handle and tip. Eu
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Author: William
Date: 2007-03-30 21:19
No only do I swab my Kaspar & Bay vintage mpcs, but I also use Lime a Way to clean the calcium that builds up on the beak and interior. Just soak them in a shot glass of straight LAW for about two minutes and that white "stuff" comes right off. Been playing them for 30 yrs and they still look like new--and the sound isnt bad either.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-03-31 17:19
My teacher is strongly against swabbing. Over time it WILL change the dimensions...even if its a minicule amount, the smallest change will make a huge difference.
I compared a B45 which I had swabbed for nearly 7 years and compared to a new one. There was a very noticeble difference.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-31 17:33
kev182 wrote:
> I compared a B45 which I had swabbed for nearly 7 years and
> compared to a new one. There was a very noticeble difference.
Compare two new B45s coming from two different batches...
--
Ben
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2007-03-31 18:31
Take care when swabbing a buffet clarinet, it might become a wide bore instrument ;-)
Honestly I don't think there can be any serious scientific evidence of a change in dimensions after swabbing 7 x 365 times a mouthpiece !! unless sandpaper is used.
I can accept the idea that some swabs take more oil out of the instrument than other, but material ... not after so few swabs.
Dropping the mp when swabbing ofcourse is a different story ...
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-31 20:13
What are you guys using to swab your mouthpieces? It's hard for me to understand how swabing with a soft silk cloth or swab that correctly fits a mouthpiece (important!) can affect a mouthpiece....of course, providing that care is taken in doing the swabing. If one uses a swab that is too large then it might be a problem.
Post Edited (2007-04-01 13:48)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2007-04-01 15:51
We might be missing the point in this thread.
Do mouthpieces *need* to be swabbed at all?
There is an argument against swabbing mouthpieces.
I remember a few years ago someone wrote to the klarinetlist about a squeak that had developed in his mouthpiece. He took it to a mouthpiece refacer who was surprised at how thin the tip rail was. The refacer said to the student, "Let me guess. You swab your mouthpiece!" The refacer said that he saw this thing quite a bit - where the tip rail got worn down and thinned over time from having a swab pulled through it regularly, to the point where the mouthpiece started chirping or squeaking. The refacer advised him not to swab the mouthpiece because the swab erodes the mouthpiece at the abrasion points.
The mouthpiece's window is a lot smaller than the clarinet's bore so there is more friction caused when swabbing a mouthpiece.
Swabbing mouthpieces is something I see students do all the time but professionals never.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
Buffet-Crampon Artist/Clinician
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-04-01 18:24
Isn't anyone concerned about the potential damage the moputhpiece might be doing to your swab? Is it really worth ruining an eight dollar square of silk?
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-04-01 18:39
The fact of the matter is that mouthpieces are made of rubber and don't need constant cleaning like the wood of the clarinet does. I don't swab my mouthpiece, I agree that it's simply just not worth the chance of alteration.
I just don't get one thing - even I just said "not worth the chance", like there's some real reason and urge to swab the mouthpiece. Who cares? Use some lemon juice for the calcium deposits and clean with water every now and then. Is that really more work than it's worth?
CA
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2007-04-01 19:18
How are we sure that the 'chemical treatment' with e.g. lemon juice doesn"t arm the mp more than swapping, we're talking about micrometer changes (?). I've seen mp's changing colour !
Also are the deposits (calcium) in between two chemo-clears not worse than the mechanical ware (= spelling ?) by swapping ?
Maybe we should just do a test : full measurement on mp dimensions, then a 10 000 swaps and measure again ;-)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-01 19:32
I have a feeling that the whole 'how many swipes will it take to ruin a mouthpiece' question will end up with the same answer as the famous, 'how many licks to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop'
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-04-02 11:40
It seems to me that there are differences between drying a soprano clarinet mouthpiece and larger mouthpieces such as bass clarinet or tenor saxophone.
I use a SMALLER swab for my tenor and BC mouthpieces than what I use for the body of the instrument. That is, I use a clarinet swab for those mouthpieces. When I run a soft silk swab of this size through a tenor sax or BC mouthpiece it comes through very easily. This seems safe to me. It's a given that I'm careful with the swab and the mouthpiece.
On the other hand, it's clear to me that a clarinet swab has entirely too much material for running through a soprano clarinet mouthpiece. Unlike what I described above for my tenor and BC mouthpieces, it takes effort to pull a swab through a clarinet mouthpiece. This implies more friction.
One thing I've tried is to take a smaller amount of material -- such as a silk cloth used to dry a flute -- and gently push it through my clarinet mouthpiece. This appears to be much better than using a swab. However, I'm still experimenting. I'd like to have an even smaller amount of material. Given the small interior space of a clarinet mouthpiece not much material is needed.
Perhaps this is a personal quirk, but I don't feel right putting a wet mouthpiece in my case.
Post Edited (2007-04-02 11:41)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-02 13:36
Swabbing can also change the bore, theoretically. The swab creates some friction and if you pull the swab very quickly and hard, like my friend did, it will change things- it's friction. IF one swabs the mouthpiece (I do it once a month or less) it should be done s.l.o.w.l.y. to avoid friction/heat.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-04-02 15:07
Responding to Simon Aldrich's post:
Yes, I seem to remember my old Gigliotti mouthpiece developing a chirp before the chip in the window came out. That was back when I had a bulky cotton swab instead of a silk one. Guess I ruined that one. I don't have it anymore, so I can't examine the tip rail to see if it is very thin. I loaned it to somebody a long time ago who "lost" it.
Sometimes we learn things the hard way, I guess. ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2007-04-02 18:26
Needed experiment:
The only way to definitively put this issue to rest is to run a "Consumer Reports" type experiment.
1) Start with a quality hard rubber mouthpiece.
2) Measure very accurately the internal volume. Should be able to use water at a known temperature/pressure for this.
3) Swab with appropriate swab the equivalent of 5 years.
4) Measure very accurately the internal volume.
5) Any differences are due to swabbing.
Options:
1a) Silk swab only
1b) Cotton swab only
2a) Swab from tenon end only
2b) Swab from beak end only
3) Plastic mouthpiece
Anyone here with the abilities to do this.
I expect the measurements will need to be accurate in the uL range but that's just my guess.
Other thoughts?
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-04-02 19:02
A project for Mythbusters?
Talking about wearing things down - what about the effect on a religious icon of many years of visitors kissing the statue's toe? It gets pretty smooth even after all those soft lips.
We went through a museum where we had to put on these ridiculous booties over our shoes before entering so the floors don't get damaged. Still, shoe bottoms would be rougher than lips, I'd think.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-04-02 19:30
My first mouthpiece(which I have NO clue what it was) chipped and I now realize it was from swabbing. I got a new one later (Vito II) and I swabbed that all the time. The rails and the tip on that one are horrible too. I haven't swabbed my Selmer C85 because I don't want to ruin it either. I rinse it out with water every 2-3 weeks.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-04-03 20:37
Here's a possible solution:
The GEM oboe swab (1-piece body swab). It's soft silk and, importantly, it has a minimal amount of material. It's the smallest silk swab I can find. It easly slides through my mouthpiece. There's absolutely NO FRICTION. It has the appearance of floating through the mouthpiece. Yet, my mouthpiece is dried. I honestly don't see how this oboe swab could affect a mouthpiece...assuming the swabing is done slowly and carefully.
I also figured out an improvement....
There's no reason to have a weight going through the mouthpiece. So, I cut off most of the cord -- leaving about 4 inches from the body of the swab -- then made a small single knot, and trimmed off the fuzz. This remainder of the cord easily goes through the mouthpiece and I use it as a handle to pull the swab through the mouthpiece. Couldn't be any easier!
I really think I'm on to something with this modified GEM silk oboe swab!
PS....
I saw something yesterday that reminded me of this discussion. I purchased a new Yamaha bass clarinet and was going through the users manual. It shows the mouthpiece being swabed out. However, the manual warns against pulling the swab all the way through the mouthpiece. It warns that the mouthpiece can be damaged. It shows only part of the swab being used to dry the mouthpiece interior.
Roger
Post Edited (2007-04-03 23:23)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-26 08:15
How about those 'pad savers' that sometimes come with clarinets? Wouldn't it be a lot safer to just take a pad saver or something like that material, gently swipe it around the bore and mouthpiece (being careful not to put so much pressure that the metal touches the mouthpiece in any way)? I think that would be a pretty safe way to dry out a mouthpiece after using it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-26 12:55
padsavers are ok as a concept, so long as you don't leave it in the clarinet/mouthpiece. additionally- as I remember from when I stopped using them- they molt and leave lint everyplace.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-04-26 13:11
(Disclaimer - I sell a mouthpiece cleaner and mouthpiece bag - haven’t gotten into selling water yet)
The only problem with most brushes, including the pad savers (which I feel serve no earthly purpose and are harmful) is that the tufts or bristles are formed by intertwining them with a metal wire. Most often they are then just snipped off to the proper length and the sharp end of the metal is at the tip of the brush and can greatly harm a mouthpiece or the bore of your instrument if not inserted exactly parallel. The mouthpiece baffle is especially vulnerable to scraping with this sharp metal end.
A dual purpose approach is to rinse out your mouthpiece with cool water after use - which removes most of the potential for both organic and mineral build up and then by firmly grasping the mouthpiece with your thumb on the flat table just blow out the residual water from the bottom end (after a couple of close calls with nearly dropping a wet and slippery mouthpiece the thumb on the table gives you a secure grip on the MP) A couple strong puffs of air removes most of the moisture inside. You can dry the outside further and remove any residual water with a little microfiber or silk cloth. I then put the mouthpiece into a mouthpiece bag that is "breathable" and any residual moisture inside will evaporate before the next use.
This approach both cleans the mouthpiece but also nothing is ever put into the mouthpiece to potentially cause a problem or wear.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-26 13:47
If I swab my mouthpiece with a bench grinder, will it create any problems?
Thanks,
Clueless in Virginia
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-04-26 14:05
David if you continue these outlandish outbursts we are going to send you to the time-out corner with the dunce cap. I assume that you think that most of the bad practices are obvious and anyone with common sense would avoid them - hey, I work with genius people all day that have a zero common sense IQ.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-04-26 14:19
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
> hey, I
> work with genius people all day that have a zero common sense
> IQ.
Same here. Or people have the expectation that sharp edges aren't exposed ... he says as he watches blood dripping off his finger after running his finger along a rain gutter on a Toyota (it happens ...).
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-04-26 14:30
...ummmmmmm.......If one doesn't swab will the buildup of deposits reduce the bore of the mouthpiece?
...Jim
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-04-26 14:58
Jim, I sell a mouthpiece cleaner that I never have to use because I rinse out my mouthpieces after every use with cool water. Minerals and food (and other organics like skin lip cell flotsam) rinse out almost completely but dry and concentrate into difficult to remove substances if left alone. I have seen mouthpieces at shows where I offer free MP cleaning that have severe deposits inside the mouthpiece that certainly might alter the MP playing characteristics. Some people are "depositors" with higher concentrations of minerals in their saliva and other people snack before or during playing but, again (bad habit but a Snickers bar may be necessary for a long concert), most minerals and organics can be easily rinsed away almost completely if rinsed immediately after every use.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2007-04-26 15:02)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-04-26 17:45
Since I don't want either the damage or the grunge buildup, after every practice, I take off the reed and rinse the reed and the mouthpiece separately in plain water. I blot the reed on a towel and store it separately. I blot the outside of the mouthpiece with the towel and blot the inside with a pad-saver, take the pad-saver out (because leaving it in would trap moisture in the mouthpiece, defeating the purpose of rinsing), then leave the mouthpiece to dry completely in a small box with a screen inset in the cover.
After the soft plastic tabs fell off the wire ends of the pad saver several times, exposing wires that could damage the mouthpiece, I replaced the tabs with blobs of hot-melt glue. I can't leave a mousepiece out in the open to dry, btw, because Shadow Cat's eagerly waiting for me to make that mistake.... Michael's and other craft shops sell the boxes, made of pine. I painted mine black and lined the inside with a layer of padding covered with washable cotton velours. The box has a clasp. The combination of the clasp and the padding should give the mouthpiece some protection in case I get careless and knock the box off the table, or Shadow Cat decides the box looks fun to swat.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2007-04-26 17:47)
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-04-27 01:54
I'm sure rising after every practice is a good thing for your mouthpiece.
My question: Who has the time to do that after every practice?
I guess it varies for the pros, music majors, and hobbiests.
CA
Edit: PS - I never have that time ;-)
Post Edited (2007-04-27 01:55)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-27 07:08
ChrisArcand wrote:
> I'm sure rising after every practice is a good thing for your
> mouthpiece.
>
> My question: Who has the time to do that after every practice?
>
>
> I guess it varies for the pros, music majors, and hobbiests.
>
> CA
>
> Edit: PS - I never have that time ;-)
>
>
> Post Edited (2007-04-27 01:55)
And you need the facilities too (running water and a drainage system). Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a good idea, but some circumstances wouldn't allow it.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-04-27 10:36
As with all suggestions, prescriptions given on the BB you must filter the information thorough your own common sense filter and apply it to your set of circumstances. Our playing conditions, available time, and facilities are varied and one set of practices will not work for all. As I tell my own children - I try to supply them with information from my knowledge and experience base but you must weigh it and apply what works for you, but gaining the most information is your greatest tool for ultimately making the best decision possible in your own situation. Often there is not one right answer but several that may apply to your situation. If you do not remove moisture and the other elements discussed you will end up referring to the many threads on how to clean a mouthpiece with build up - another possible answer!
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-04-27 12:33
I doubt that I spend more than two minutes, total, on rinsing, blotting and stowing. We're not talking about scrubbing a sink full of crusty pots and pans here. If there's no running water available at a rehearsal or performance (what, no restrooms?--that must get interesting...), then it's a simple matter to rinse and dry the equipment at home or in a hotel room later. Does anybody with access to this BB on a computer really have no access to running water?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2007-04-27 14:31
I swab my mouthpiece from time to time. I have never had a problem.
I don’t wash my mouthpiece after playing. Finding a sink at the hall is an inconvenience. When practicing at home, I am too lazy to wash my mouthpiece. Instead, I store my mouthpiece by putting the ligature back on, and placing a plastic cap over it. I then put it all away in my clarinet case. I have never had a problem.
When the time comes to actually clean my mouthpiece (once every three or four months), I soak it in lemon juice concentrate for a few minutes and then gently wipe off the residue with a cloth. I have never had a problem.
All that is necessary is care.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-28 07:21
Lelia, you'd be surprised. Sometimes I'm at gigs where all I have available are porto-potties with some handsanitizer stuck to the outside of them.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Neil
Date: 2007-04-28 13:38
I use a Q-tip on mine. I'm not really worried about erosion, the Q-tip just seems to work better.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-28 14:53
After rehearsal I can't rinse my mouthpiece because there's no faucet nearby. So I just swab it. I will use it within 24 hours again anyway so I don't worry.
At home I rinse it, kitchen-towel it on the outside and blow out the bore. By the time I'm done with the rest of the instrument, it's dry, and so is the reed.
Sometimes I play twice without proper aftercare. But so far, the clarinet deities haven't unleashed their wrath on me. <crosses fingers>
BTW, I sparingly apply cork grease after playing. No residue on my pinky when playing, and less goo in the sockets. (Is the slowly expanding cork absorbing the grease better?)
--
Ben
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-04-28 18:32
Well, Hawkins says that it doesn't make any difference, and he's been making mouthpieces for eons, but you say it "WILL change the dimensions."
Please provide the before-and-after measurements.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-04-30 22:49
So I guess a Brillo pad is out?
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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