 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-02-02 17:45
While doing a clinic with some high schoolers this week, I broached the subject of adjusting between the upper and lower joints to keep from yanking the tuning barrel too far out.
But the students informed me that another clinician (who has real credentials that far exceed my own) had told them NOT to adjust in the middle. Only at the barrel and at the bell.
I am well aware that kids latch onto all sorts things out of context. But this group of kids is serious about what they're doing, and I respect the clinician who gave them this advice. No one professes to have a mechanical problem, so I'm scratching my head.
Has something shifted?
If not, I really wish that teachers and clinicians who give situational advice, would put more emphasis on its situational nature.
Allen Cole
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-02 19:30
Its ok to pull the center joint. It affects notes in the right hand (and left pinkies) without changing those in the left hand.
The effectivness of pulling the barrel diminishes as more tone holes are covered, and the effective length of the tube gets longer, so it doesn't affect the longer notes as much as it does the short notes and the throat tones.
you can even pull the middle joint a bit with an articulated G# where the tonehole passes through the middle tenon.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-02-02 19:50
You do whatever you need to to play in tune.
For a clinician to make such a blanket statement is doing no favours for the students.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-02-02 19:54
I have a buffet tunnig ring in my middle joint of my R13 B flat and it is always there to help lower the right hand clarion notes like D and E which are always sharp on this instrument. It is perfectly normal and sometimes required to pull a little at the middle joint. Caution should be used if a student is pulling the middle joint to lower the pitch of notes other than the right hand notes or if pulling the middle joint creates joint wobble. Otherwise, I don't see any problem with it at all.
I think there is only one firm rule when it comes to intonation and that is:
Play in tune;)
Post Edited (2007-02-02 23:27)
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-02-03 00:38
Perhaps the clinician was refering to problems you could have with the bridge key if you pull in the middle and the cork isn't just right. When I have my instruments adjusted, I usually tell the repair tech that I need to pull just a bit in the middle so that adjustment can be made with the bridge key.
Some clarinets can get wobbly with the middle pulled, too.
john
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-02-03 01:48
I always ask myself in situations like this: Why not?
I personally find it ridiculous that someone would say it isn't right to pull at the middle - It seems like an almost essential aspect of playing in tune.
I wrote a big long rant here just now about instructors saying "this is how it is", and how as long is it sounds good, why would you make a rule against it. I could probably rant for an hour about something like that, but I'll keep it simple:
If it sounds good, do it. Why would you make a rule against something that could make someone sound so much better?
I guess my biggest problem is that I wish you could ask the clinician "Why not?" about the joint, so we really have a better idea of the situation and what he/she meant.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-03 11:34
WHY NOT.......
I am not the clinician but I agree whole heartedly.
After years of pulling out at the middle ....... ok let's all admit that we do this to avoid having to listen to, and adjust, the chalameau B........ I find that you sacrifice too much in the clarion (B and C) and most definitely sacrifice your low E and F.
Think about it. The horn was meticulously cut to play notes in tune at a given length with a given length in between each and every note (your "A" clarinet has more wood between notes than your "Bb" and that's only a half step overall difference in pitch). Or to put in another way, try that with your pricey Rossi clarinets.
.......DON'T PULL OUT EVER............
Smart clinician.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2007-02-03 12:36
Paul,
Good theory. But when playing with others, you just HAVE to pull out sometimes. Other's intonation changes, as well as ours once our horns get warm. if one has to tune to A440, and they are at A438, but when warmed up are at 443, what are they supposed to do? Sacrifice tone and lip every note up or down? I wouldn't say that's very practical for that much of an intonation difference.
Also, if the horn was "meticulously cut to play notes in tune at a certain length and with a given length in between each and every note", then why are there things on the market like tuning rings? Why should we have to tape our holes? Why is one note on MY horn different than yours? I don't believe that the clarinet is meticulously cut by it's maker to play notes in tune, because if it did, we wouldn't have this post going at all. We wouldn't have to try out 4 different horns and compare the intonation of them with a tuner. We'd just tell everyone to shut up and go practice. So simple! But it's just not that easy. (practicing IS an essential part of learning how your instrument works in order to play in tune...ie learning which notes are out on YOUR horn and figuring out how to play them in tune with a good sound consistantly).
I agree with everyone else who said "just make it in tune". Do what you have to do, but make it sound good. He had to have a reason for his telling the STUDENTS that it was a bad idea for pulling out in the middle. Perhaps he thought that they would go overboard with that technique and play out of tune by pulling out only in the center. Do you know who this clinician is? Send him an email!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-02-03 13:30
I have a feeling that Paul was being sarcastic...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-03 19:31
I meant to say....don't pull out at the center. And no, I was not being sarcastic.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-02-03 22:37
Well....ooops. Sorry Paul!
Since I regularly find that my students (and myself) are high on the clarion B and C there is no conflict with adjustment from the middle.
The low F and E are sacrificed...however they already have been by some clarinet makers. The standard R13 is already quite low here...and on some clarinets (Like some E11's) not at all.
Everyone, their instrument, their fundamentals, and their circumstances are individual.
Although blanket statements are easy to make and can be usefull guidelines it comes down to individual circumstance. The disadvantages of making such statements to young people is that some->many of them will not have the benefit of expert help to realize the invalidity of a statement in relation to their own playing.
In the context of this discussion we also do not know what caveats were given in conjunction with this advice. If there were none this would be a mistake.
I pull from and teach others to pull from the middle joint because their intonation is improved.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-02-04 01:14)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-04 22:08
Dear Gnothi,
And saying that pulling out in the middle improves intonation is NOT a blanket statement (even though the E and F are admittedly made worse)?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-02-04 22:45
I have found that in some situations, pulling out in the middle can be very useful. I often have to do it to adjust when playing in the wind section of an orchestra because I tend to be a little bit sharp throughout the range of the instrument. I've remedied this (mostly) with a longer barrel, a Fobes 67mm, which fixes intonation in the upper joint, but the difference it makes as we get physically further from the barrel is smaller and smaller. If I pull out the barrel enough to get the clarion B and C to speak perfectly in tune, my throat tones a very flat. If I leave the barrel pushed in and pull the lower and upper joints apart just a hair, it can make all the difference in the world. I can (and often do) get by without pulling out the bottom joint, but it's nice to have that option. This is what my teacher does, and he has a master's degree from Julliard and has played professionally for many years.
I'm not going to say that everyone should pull out the bottom joint or that nobody should pull out the bottom joint. Everybody should just do what they have to do to sound good and play in tune.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-02-05 02:53
Paul...if their intonation is not improved I do not teach them to pull the middle joint. There is no blanket statement here.
There is no master tuning joint on the clarinet. No place that solves all issues. It is a combination of adjustments that suits an individual's tendencies.
James
For clarifications sake Gnothi Seauton means "know thyself".
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-02-05 04:06
Okay, so I don't have a screw loose. Just checking.
I was a bit taken aback to hear that this advice had been given, even though I was annoyed by my own wobbly connection for 20+ years.
And, as so many have pointed out, I feel sure that the advice must have been situational--although I have not been able to determine yet what the situation was.
To further clarify, the students were advised to tune at the bell rather than the middle--although I'm skeptical of how that's going to help notes like D and E.
Another lesson in the dangers of oversimplification when dealing with an audience that ALREADY tends to oversimplify.
Allen Cole
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