 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-10 17:39
Ok. I know that looks like a retarted question, but so far all I have found is the continuing affermation, "the low F and E ARE flat". However I have not found the reason it is so. Being well aware that we all have this problem I can't really figure out how it can be that all the other notes are quite well in tune, but only those lowest notes are flat. It would make sence if the notes got progressivly flatter as one went down the scale- logic and such. But the B is good, the A is good, the G is good, and the F is not.
I have heard the "it is a compromise for the middle C" answer- but I ask, why is there no compromise needed for D, E, F, G? - which are all nicely pitched.
What is it in the design that causes this? And, How can we fix it?
-S
PS. Since so many companies seem to be unable to make a clarinet that has those notes in tune (except if you have the extra holes), then maybe it is a stupid question.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-10 17:40
PPS. Maybe a better question is, "Why is the sky blue?" (no jokes about my name)
-Sky
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-10 17:49
The only real fix which won't compromise the tuning of the upper B and C is to have a similar mechanism as fitted to Oehler system clarinets whereby a single thumb key (for the rigt thumb) opens a vent above the lowest tonehole to bring the F up to pitch, and another vent key on the bell to bring the low E up to pitch - the vent for F being closed automatically when you play low E (where the bell vent remains open).
Here's the clearest image I can find of this mechanism, which is standard on full Oehler system clarinets:
http://www2.musik-meyer.net/Anwendungen/WNews/jpnews.nsf/0/225E348FD9601414C125720D0049DFE1
And there's no such thing as the perfect clarinet - many companies can get near to perfection, but it's the small imperfections that makes it a musical instrument, and we as humans have to deal with them.
Here's a Japanese woodwind specialists with German clarinets:
http://www.ishimori-co.com/inst/clatop.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-12-10 17:56)
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Author: Aures22
Date: 2006-12-10 18:33
That's the type of thinking that has booged down the technical improvements and innovation in general for clarinets in my view. The idea that some improvements in the clarinet are not possible or people should be satified with an instrument that has obvious problems- in the case a tuning of a particular note.
I see too much imitation and copying of ideas from different clarinet manufacturers. This has led to instruments that are similar in the type of problems that they have. Even expensive new prof models that claim some or dramatic improvements and changes are in my experience, not felt to be the case. Most of it is remaking a similar insturment with problems still intact. I don't want to blame a particular company for this. And there are too many models to choose from that do not really solve these problems. What you have is diversity yet a lack of innovation nor perfection.
Some customers feel that if a clarinet sounds a certain way that they like, it might be worth purchasing and paying thousands of dollars for this reason. I personally think that this is a waste in many respects. The way an instrument sounds should not be the first thing to look for since your conception of sound is likely to change over time or situation.
I have found a relatively inexpensive instrument- the Selmer CL300- that does not have the flat low F-in tune C problem. The 12th is not spread at all with the Vandoren B45 mouthpiece and the low F is in tune.
Post Edited (2006-12-10 18:41)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-12-10 19:18
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
The position, size and undercutting of tone holes is a compromise on clarinets due to their effects on adjacent tone holes. The bore size and dimensions also contribute to the tuning of a given tone hole. In order to get the clarion B & C correct many manufacturers will sacrifice the tuning of the low E & F. As has been noted there can be another tone hole with various actuation mechanisms near or on the bell to get these low notes up in pitch. Another fix is the passive tone hole in the bell and/or the tuning groove - TRAC - incised into the interior of the bell which has a couple of effects including raising the low E & F. There is no excuse for these notes being flat in a modern clarinet but many manufacturers continue to make clarinets - except their upper tier - that are similar to their older models (excuse - "People still buy them") which have flat E & F with most other notes in tune.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-12-10 22:21
?? Can this "flatness" be somewhat compensated-for by better venting [increased rising] of the [co-ordinated] low F and E pads. Perhaps that might also help the speaking of the G/D notes ?? Comments? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-12-11 02:13
Does anyone know if Mr. Tom Ridenour has solved this problem with his new RCP 576 bc model Lyrique Bb clarinet.
jmsa
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-12-11 05:49
I've played on a number of clarinets that play better in tune than mine but with a sound that I didn't like as much. I find it easier to adjust the pitch than I do to change the sound, so I go for sound first and foremost and deal with the pitch.
I'm going to guess that vent hole locations have as much to do with resonance and sound quality as they do with tuning. As a consequence, the manufacturers have to compromise. So take your pick: do you want good pitch w/ sound that requires fixing or a good sound with pitch that requires fixing? It's personal - good thing there are many different clarinets out there! One day I'll find the one that does it all...
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-11 09:57
rgames- "I've played on a number of clarinets that play better in tune than mine but with a sound that I didn't like as much."
That reminds me a little something several people have told me.
1. A professional oboist once said to me, "good oboes have bad pitch and good tone. You have to fix the pitch with crazy fingerings, but if you play an oboe that has really good pitch, the tone is always bad."
2. I also heard a bit about sax design history- most of us know about the high/low pitch designs in the first half of the 20thC. When A=440 was decided, the high pitch instruments were useless for sax, but the low pitch were useful. Pushing in the mouthpiece was about enough, but the intonation of the sax with itself was destroyed. Then, in the 50's and 60's some makers tried making saxophones that were truly in-tune. Most of the pros that sampled the instruments had been playing on the bad intonation sax for so long that they had gotten used to it- ie. they didn't like the saxes that where made with good pitch. The result, those makes continued to make saxes with pitch problems because everyone had "learned to love it". They only fixed the notes that were exceptionally out of tune, but they purposely left many pitch problems alone.
3. There is also something that Karl Leister said at a masterclass I went to. "Some notes are out of tune on clarinet, but if you have 4 clarinets in an orchestra and they are all out of tune in the same way, then they are not out of tune- they are in tune."--ie. don't stress your life over bad pitch. I suppose that if one player has a new clarinet with good pitch it would be a problem for them if they are the only "in tune" person in the section.
Any comment?
Post Edited (2008-10-11 09:21)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-11 10:15
to add to Skygardner....
4. when you're playing with good people they will cut you some slack, and meet you in the middle if need be
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2006-12-11 11:11
In response to jmsa: The low E and F are in tune on my Lyrique B flat.
D.O.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-12-11 14:13
What's interesting is that the problem has been addressed with both Full Boehm instruments, and the Buffet Elite, but people haven't been abandoning their traditional instruments to get in tune low Fs and Gs. Elites are gone, and only one company is producing new FBs, which aren't high end professional models. It is interesting to observe how folks comment on overall intonation within a couple cents, but don't seem bothered by low F & G being 10-20 cents flat.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-11 14:28
The low E and F are very flat on my full Boehm Series 9 clarinets (both A and Bb), as well as the low Eb.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-12-11 14:53
I play a Selmer Series 10, circa 1970.
I have just about come to the conclusion that the low F is the worst note on the instrument.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-12-11 15:39
On my Selmer 30's BASS cl, the low G, F, and E are three of its best notes ! To some degree I attribute them to the "doubled" F/C pads and the low Eb pad [on bell] which provide additional venting for these notes [IMHO]. I believe I've seen a sop, cl with the "doubled" pads [anyone else?], which might be a solution, but the ?additional cost? and the coordinated seating required would discourage the faint-hearted . Mon. morn. thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-11 15:46
German clarinets have the "doppel-klappen" for the F/C key. There is not much change in the pitch that I can recall from the time I played them- I actually think that the pitch on French clarinets is generally better than German, unless you have the top of the line with all these extra keys that always fall out of regulation.
Don- On your bass with the good low notes- how many register tubes does it have?
-s
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-12-11 16:17
Hi Sky [as in Guys & Dolls ??] - My bass [essentially a 32 U J, and replaced 33 L J] is "Double-Register-Keyed" with the upper vent at the bottom of the neck and the lower vent which is an enlarged, "bossed" tone hole-tube about 1" below the U J socket, which it shares with the "pinch" Bb [which is OK, but could be better]. The activating mechanisms are quite well "worked out" , but I give mine an every-playing "check-up" and may make an occasional adjustment, usually just some recorking of the "bridges". Hope I made this clear-enough. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-12-11 17:40
The double low F pads were popular for a while, I think in the 50s. I've seen them on a Leblanc "pre-Classic", a Couesnon Monopole (which also had rolers on the F-G# combination) and once owned a Moening Artist with this feature. It's hard to get both pads to close simultaneously, since the only adjustments are pad thickness and pad arm bending.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-11 18:20
I saw a Leblanc with both the double C key and throat Bb mechanism (with a link from the A key as on the pro Leblanc alto, basset horn and bass clarinets) - and I was too late to bid on it! Maybe you can still hear the echo when I vented my disappointment in some far off land.
Woulda beena good'un I reckon!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2006-12-11 19:48
Tom Ridenour has solved the low F problem as is mentioned above. Any Ridenour clarinet has those low notes in tune.
The Recital by Selmer had a notoriously low low f so they added a kind of resonance key which made it terrific, but was an option.
The solution for the ordinary low low f is to play it pianissimo, which can lose you a job if you are playing Mother Goose, Peter and the Wolf ,etc.\
"Sorry Sir Big mouth, that is as loud as I can play."
"Oh, then get out"!
Yamaha Clarinets in the high end do a marvelous job on the low F, and the high e and f.
The problem has been soved by more than one manufacturer, without an Oehler mechanism.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-11 23:36
sherman wrote:
>> The problem has been soved by more than one manufacturer, without an Oehler mechanism.>>
It's a question of what you mean by 'solved'. That the F/C twelfth is in tune doesn't mean that compromises haven't been made elsewhere -- on a single register key instrument, that is.
The sound of a clarinet note is always 'harmonic' -- meaning that the frequencies of the overtones are whole number multiples of the fundamental frequency. This is a consequence of the steady state repeating waveform that results from a 'driven' oscillation -- as opposed to a piano note, say, which is struck and thereafter vibrates freely.
The nonlinearity of the reed vibration at reasonably strong dynamics guarantees the presence of higher partials. Then, the normal modes of vibration of the tube for a given fingering (plus the open lattice fingerholes below the fingering) usually aren't so far away from the harmonic series appropriate to the length of tube for that fingering, so the resonances corresponding to these normal modes amplify the higher partials. The upshot is that the partials that 'sit' well in the peaks of these resonances are more amplified than the ones that don't. A 'good' clarinet sound has a rich, well-balanced harmonic spectrum, so this 'sitting well' is desirable.
But, you can hear that the sequence of normal modes of vibration of a 'well in tune' clarinet -- the sequence of notes you get if you 'overblow' a chalumeau note -- differ fairly appreciably from harmonicity. This is a result of the divergences of the bore from cylindricality that are essential to guarantee that when you open the register key, the twelfths are sufficiently well in tune. (Overblowing without the register key, corresponding to the normal modes, is flat at the bottom and the top of the instrument, and true only around B flat / F.)
So a 'well in tune' clarinet has its resonance peaks in the 'wrong' place for resonant sound in the lower register! There is a trade-off, and you can't 'have it all'.
Furthermore, because of the nonharmonicity of the modes of resonance of the instrument (not the nonharmonicity of the resultant *sound*), the perceived pitch in the steady state may be different from the fundamental corresponding to the length of tube. According to Benade (Physics of wind instrument tone and response, 1971) the fundamental frequency locks into position in such a way as to maximise the weighted average height of all resonance values R1, R2, R3,.... corresponding to the harmonics f1, 2f1, 3f1,....
This is a bit arcane, I know, but the message is that the pitch of a note on a clarinet that has been organised to be 'well in tune' by bore modification can depend on the dynamic -- which obviously you don't want to happen too much either.
Tony
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-12-12 01:40
It might seem elementary, but whenever I have to go that low, I tighten up a great amount. Usually E is really good in tune when I do this, F on the other hand tends to change. *Sigh* :The wishes of owning a recital:
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-12 03:59
To Sherman- the Ridenour clarinets have a good low end. As Mr. Pay raised the question- Are there any other notes that are now really bad??
-Sky
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 05:03
skygardener wrote:
>> To Sherman- the Ridenour clarinets have a good low end. As Mr. Pay raised the question- Are there any other notes that are now really bad??>>
Well, to clarify -- Mr Pay didn't say that any other notes would be 'really bad'.
It depends on where you like your problems -- including whether or not you are sensitive to them AS problems. Some people prefer an instrument that responds pretty equally over the whole range, but that feels rather characterless and bland. I've certainly played instruments of that nature.
From time to time, I've also encountered 'idiosyncrasies' that I felt were worth living with for the sake of other qualities of the instruments involved.
With regard to Ridenour's clarinets, since I've never played them, I don't know whether I would feel that they lacked character to the extent that I didn't want to have to compensate for that problem. (Notice that a player COMPENSATES for the deficiencies of an instrument -- it's what being a serious performer is all about.)
However, what I said in my previous post is just something that has to be true to some extent, for the reasons I gave. You can't 'have it all' in an instrument, rave reviews in this Forum notwithstanding.
Tony
Post Edited (2006-12-12 05:28)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 13:08
BTW, I see that originally skygardener wrote:
>> I can't really figure out how it can be that all the other notes are quite well in tune, but only those lowest notes are flat. It would make sence if the notes got progressivly flatter as one went down the scale- logic and such. But the B is good, the A is good, the G is good, and the F is not.>>
In fact, B and A have a tendency to sharpness -- but the answer to your question is that both E and F, though the latter to a lesser extent, are 'untypical' notes, because unlike all other notes on the instrument they don't have an extensive tonehole lattice beneath their first open hole. They also have to have the twelfths above at least tractable for the player. Thus, on an extended instrument, E and F can be better for the first reason, and all notes lower than that don't have to worry about the twelfths above.
The main component of the fix on a standard instrument is a flare in the lower joint, and the problem with that is that the 'clarinetty' quality of the whole instrument is somewhat compromised, as I wrote previously. (A flare affects higher notes than just the E and F, it turns out.) German makers refuse to give up that clarinetty quality, hence the necessity for a corrective key on their instruments.
The best players can produce a flexible and rich sound on the French style instrument; but anyone accustomed to both sorts of instrument will agree with me that the German style instrument, whilst not without its own problems, produces very naturally a sound that is a lovely musical tool for the player.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 13:38
skygardener further wrote:
>> 3. There is also somthing that Karl Leister said at a masterclass I went to. "Some notes are out of tune on clarinet, but if you have 4 clarinets in an orchestra and they are all out of tune in the same way, then they are not out of tune- they are in tune.">>
What Leister meant here was that if you and other clarinettists have a complicated something to play in unison, it helps the overall effect if the sorts of error you tend to make are the same sorts of error that others tend to make. But this is only true in passages where fine correction isn't required -- say, if the passage is fast.
YOUR deduction:
>> ie. don't stress your life over bad pitch.>>
...isn't sustainable. It cannot have been what he meant. Bad pitch is exactly what you should stress your life over, until correcting for it becomes automatic, and therefore not stressful:-)
>>I suppose that if one player has a new clarinet with good pitch it would be a problem for them if they are the only "in tune" person in the section.>>
Only in the sorts of passage I mentioned above -- and those are (relatively) infrequent.
In other sorts of passage, if the section is any good at all, then they'll play in tune. The one with the new clarinet, if (S)HE's any good, will do the same -- perhaps with less effort than the others.
Tony
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-12-12 14:12
Sky seems to imply that every clarinet has very low E and F.
My R13 and Eaton clarinet have good low E and F!
(within the deviations of other notes.)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 14:34
Koo Young Chung wrote:
>> Sky seems to imply that every clarinet has very low E and F.
>> My R13 and Eaton clarinet have good low E and F! (within the deviations of other notes.)>>
What I'd want to say about the clarinets I play (there are quite a few) is that quite generally, the low F has a tendency to flatness for which I compensate, and the A a tendency to sharpness, for which I compensate.
So, do I say that my clarinets have good low F? In one sense yes, so I can see what you mean.
But I can see what he means, too, particularly if he's not an expert player (we don't know).
Tony
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-12-12 15:14
I have to agree with Mr. Pay on this one - the most important aspect of playing in tune isn't the instrument - it's the player. I had two well respected teachers in my youth - both symphony players of the highest caliber. One of them taught me fingerings in the throat tones and altissimo that sounded the best and rang the best, and said it was my job to make sure they were always in tune, regardless of the passage. His exceptions to these fingerings were very few and far between - only if the passage were virually impossible to play with the "standard" fingerings. The other teacher had a different fingering for each excerpt - play the long F here, the Bb f# here, etc. Somehow it seemed to take me out of the music, concentrating more on fingerings than on the phrases - I dunno, maybe that's a weakness on my part, I always just gravitated to the "play it in tune" philosophy.
Once you know the tendencies of your instrument, there's no reason to play out of tune, IMHO. I'm sure there are horns out there that will not play in tune no matter what. For God's sake, don't buy them!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 15:25
I wrote:
>> So, do I say that my clarinets have good low F? In one sense yes, so I can see what you mean.>>
I seem to be spending rather too much time on this, but there's something else to say that more advanced players will appreciate.
My clarinets in an important sense DON'T have a good low F, because it's almost impossible to play a SHARP low F when one is required. (Fortunately, that occurs very seldom in the literature -- has anyone got a good example?)
What do I mean, that it's a defect that I can't produce an 'out-of-tune' note?
Well, the fact is that playing in tune requires much more than reproducing on a clarinet the same pitches as those on an accurately tuned equal-tempered piano. (Indeed, playing in tune WITH JUST SUCH A PIANO requires much more than that!)
For example, it requires us to play major thirds and minor sevenths FLATTER than equal temperament in order to be in tune with other players in simple chords, and therefore -- this isn't always realised -- the roots of those chords SHARPER than equal temperament to be in tune with fixed pitch instruments if they happen to be playing thirds and sevenths.
A striking example of this sort of consideration is the first Eb chord in Mozart 39. The second violins have an open G string which is if anything sharp even to equal temperament, and the clarinets have G and Bb two octaves above. To have the Eb/G interval correctly small throughout the orchestra, the prevailing Eb has to be on the sharp side, and therefore the first clarinet has to play the Bb (written C) on the sharp side too, rather counterintuitively. The second clarinet's written A is a note that you'd instinctively flatten as a third in F major (sounding G in Eb major), but you don't want to do that too much because of the second violin G. All this has to be organised rather consciously, particularly if natural horns are being used, because the second horn G is then on the flat side! The player has to have the slide pushed in for the Introduction.
So, a good example of a sharp low F being needed would be one that had to be in tune with a piano chord containing a prominent G natural an octave and a third higher. I can't think of one right now -- though the analogy with the 'tricky' last chord of the 2nd movement of the Brahms F minor sonata springs to mind: THAT requires a delicately placed throat Bb, but fortunately throat Bb is fairly labile.
Tony
Post Edited (2006-12-12 15:43)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-12 17:28
Sorry, Mr. Pay. I have a few things to clarify since perhaps I wasn’t clear on some points. First, I am not a seasoned professional. I will soon have my masters degree in Clarinet performance. My playing contexts are mostly solo and in smaller ensembles. So, that is my experience- NOT 20 years playing in orchestras and freelancing.
I am playing a pair of Festivals, first purchased in 1986. My barrels are from South Korea. My mouthpiece is my design- if I play Vandoren the pitch is fair, and if I play Zinner much of the low register is really flat. If I use more normal barrels and mouthpieces, etc the pitch is worse than my current setup. Having said that, my current pitch situation is quite good (except for the notes we’ve been discussing)- all those other “tendencies” that you were speaking of don’t exist in any real significant sense on these horns. There are a few slight tendencies, but none that can’t be changed with the mouth or slightly different fingerings. I am lucky in that I really don’t have to worry too much about pitch compared with other clarinets (new and old) that I try from time to time.
I do understand that the player has more control than the instrument, but as many have noted in this topic, that low F is often unbendably flat on a lot of clarinets. When we play musical instruments we are playing with the laws of physics and we are bound by them. So Mr. Pay, you can compensate for these tendencies in your instruments, but as you know on many clarinets, the difference in pitch is far too great to overcome. I thought it was a good topic to start since I couldn’t find the answer to “Why?”. I am sure I am not the only one bothered by it.
As for my quote of Mr. Leister- I didn’t mean to say that he said “pitch is not important”. He made point in the lessons to play in tune and always having the best pitch possible (even changing the fingering after you breathe). But one of the big things I got from him (maybe I made a mistake and this was not his philosophy at all) was this- practice a lot, work on everything that you can, always try to play beautifully, always try to improve, but don’t waste time on the things that are impossible for everyone. I think that is very Dali-lama-esque.
So my next question, even though it is really the same question from a different angle. For those of you that have clarinets with good (or at least reasonable) low Fs- what is it in the design that allows it to happen? And what are the brands? Maybe the tone of those clarinets is “less interesting” for some. I have never played one that has a good low F myself so I really don’t know my opinion. Although someone said that Yamahas are really good. And I actually tried the newest Yamaha designs recently, I didn’t have a tuner with me. To be honest, I couldn’t put my finger on it, but there was something in the color that was kind of uninteresting.
-s
Post Edited (2008-10-11 09:27)
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-12-12 17:58
Not trying to derail this most interesting conversation which BTW I plan to point to from my blog. From a doubler's perspective EVERY instrument and even those in the same make/model have intonation challenges. The sax is worse than the clarinet by far.
As a late bloomer returning to performance music I've decided that the musician who can't adjust on the fly, probably won't go very far or be very happy with this hobby/avocation. I had four instruments in a theater pit crew for a gig last month and trying memorize each instruments foibles doesn't always work. Having a great ear and exercising lipping down/up or fingering alternatives will pay great dividends.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-12 19:27
i spend a lot of time playing the clarinet, and one of my major goals is good intonation (i really wish i'd been more aware of this in my 20s). When i play my Yamaha tenor sax (mostly orchestra and solo classical-ish stuff) i am amazed at how easily i can play in tune with minimal adjustment.
thanks for you brilliant postings MR Pay
you've pretty much said all there is to say as far as i can tell
donald
Post Edited (2006-12-12 20:10)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-12-12 20:56
A very good sop. cl playing f[r]iend, who has inherited a Leblanc ser. # 3763 [it seems to be much newer], has had it pro-repaired and it is loaned to me for several weeks, for my investigation of its "extras" . As shown in Debbi Reeves [Hist. Spk] pics, ICA Journal Sept. 2006 pg 20, it has the Leb's improved Bb pinch mechanisms [sim. to Stubbins ??], a 7th ring for fork Eb/Bb, BUT without the small ?tuning? pad/key !, AND the ''doubled" F/C pads, as I said I'd seen [above]. Bill R and I will really welcome comments as to its dating/value, as its quite similar to Shackleton's cl in D R's ICA article [above]. I plan to check out its playability, intonation, etc to the best of my ability, and to seek pro evaluations. All info will be appreciated, I will report later in a new thread. HELP, please, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-12 21:36
skygardener wrote:
>> I am playing a pair of Festivals, first purchased in 1986. My barrels are from South Korea. My mouthpiece is my design- if I play Vandoren the pitch is fair, and if I play Zinner much of the low register is really flat. If I use more normal barrels and mouthpieces, etc the pitch is worse than my current setup. Having said that, my current pitch situation is quite good (except for the notes we’ve been discussing).>>
Buffet Festivals should have the 'tractable tendencies' I mentioned. If the tendencies AREN'T tractable, I suggest you have the bores of your instruments checked by a Buffet dealer. It's perfectly possible for the wood to have moved away from the design specification over the period you have owned them.
If it has moved, you can have it put back, at some expense if you have to reline with ebonite the part of the bore that has expanded -- I had that done to an instrument of mine.
Alan Hacker tells me that he's done it himself by painting on layers of the substance they use to caulk the outside of boats, being careful to keep the holes clean with Qtips the while; but I've never tried that.
The opposite process -- rereaming a bore that has contracted -- is much easier, of course. Talk to a Buffet person.
Tony
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Author: sherman
Date: 2006-12-12 22:30
Tony Pay wrote:
"pitch of a note on a clarinet that has been organised to be 'well in tune' by bore modification can depend on the dynamic -- which obviously you don't want to happen too much either".
I have found as Tony Pay that the dynamic is all important, especially in the register of which we speak.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-12-12 23:13
To Sky: Barrel from South Korea?
Can you tell us more about the barrel/ maker?
I never heard anyone making barrel from S.Korea.
(I'm from S.Korea.)
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-12-13 01:46
Attachment: IMGP0615.JPG (460k)
The low F, especially on the A clarinet, is a note that has always bothered me. It seems to me that clarinet makers tune this F/C 12th even a little lower on the A clarinet. Recently, I asked a terrific repairman (Tomoji from NY) to fix help me fix this problem. We came up with the solution you see in the photo. It not only fixes the flatness, but the note itself is clearer and more powerful. My only regret is that I didn't have this idea sooner.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-13 03:50
tiger trainer- what you've got is your own version of the venting keys used for nearly a century on German clarinets. The extra key on the Tosca pretty much does the same thing, and the key on the Selmer Recital is one step better- it's automatically open whenever the register key isn't open. All these options were discussed above (hang on, maybe no one mentioned the Tosca?)
However your key looks beautifully done! Congratulations, i hope you now have a clarinet that you will keep and play for years to come.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-13 06:47
Dr. O'Dell and Donald,
Tomoji can make the Recital style mechanism now. I went to his shop a few years ago when he was first tinkering with it. He's gotten so great now.
-Sky
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-12-13 13:23
When I wanted to solve the problem, I didn't want a German style fix or the Selmer Recital solution either. I wanted something very simple and not automatic. I also wanted one that works better than the one on the Tosca. Has anyone noticed that the Tosca correction doesn't really do anything? It just seems to raise the F to the normal level of flatness.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-13 14:18
so you mean that with out using the key the pitch is even flatter than normal?
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-12-13 14:25
I haven't spent a lot of time with Toscas, but it seems to me that the design of the instrument ended up lowering the low F further, necessitating the addition of a correction mechanism. On the occasions that played them, the instruments I tried didn't really raise the low f that much. On a German clarinet for example, the pitch difference can be dramatic. My mechanism isn't quite so much, but it pretty much does the trick.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: Aures22
Date: 2006-12-13 18:00
To tigertrainer, do you have a problem of condensation running out of the lower joint vent-hole and effecting the sound and response of the low notes? It seems like it is located at a place where they run. Also, can you tell how much that procedure cost from the tech?
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2006-12-13 18:13
Tigertrainer...
Hmmm, not so sure about what you say about Toscas. The 'normal' low F on my Toscas is no flatter than any other clarinet I have played, however the alternate low F is extremely useful when playing at loud dynamics to create a 'better' low F.
I would say that if the Tosca's design had a particularly low low F, it wouldn't be an alternative fingering, the vent would always open.
(It's also extremely useful for resonance fingerings, helps to create some fantastic multiphonics and can be used to colour different notes as you would with extra Eb, B, C etc. keys.)
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-12-13 21:50
When I first got it back, I thought there might be a condensation problem because of its placement. So far, it has not happened. Even if there were to be condensation in that vent hole, I wouldn't think it would gurgle because it's not an actual tone hole. It would probably just not vent fully. To answer your question about price, I am not sure what Tomoji is charging these days. I think this kind of addition is starting to become more common. If you know of a top repairman, he could probably do it. For example, I think I heard Tim Clark say he has done it before, too.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
Post Edited (2006-12-13 21:52)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-14 05:30
I remember talking to Tomoji about having it done on mine a few years ago. I remember him saying that it would be about $500 for the automatic version.
-s
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-24 14:37
Hi again- sorry to bring back this topic. But I have a question.
Mr.Pay and a few others said that they are able adjust the low F to be in tune. I wondered how this is possible as I can only bring it up 10 cents- leaving it still 10 cents flat. I have heard that those in the UK use short barrels. Is this the case? If so then I see how adjustment is easier- everything is higher so the lows are close enough to bend up and the higher notes that are sharp are not at all difficult to lower.
also, if I understand correctly, making the flare in the bottom joint a bit larger will raise the F but not so much the C?
still thinking...
happy holidays,
S
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2006-12-24 14:50
Define 'short' barrel, I have no idea what your average US player plays on.
I'm in the UK and normally play on a 66, carry a 65 in the case and also own a 64 and a 67.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-24 15:21
The only players I know of in the UK that use short barrels (62mm or less!) on an otherwise standard clarinet are some sax players that have taken up clarinet later on, but play with a wide mouthpiece tip opening, a soft reed and the same embouchure they use on sax so they have an otherwise perfect barrel butchered to counteract for their flatness, but it only creates more intonation problems than it cures as the proportions and scale have been altered in the wrong manner - and they still play flat. And then they teach clarinet and shorten their pupils' barrels because they find 'all these new student clarinets play flat'!
Even though the Yamaha CSG has a short barrel in comparison to their other Boehm systems, it has a longer top joint in a similar fashion to German clarinets, so no intonation problems there.
I play mostly on a 67mm barrel, and use a 68mm one in the summer so I don't have to pull out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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