 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-10-10 23:00
I expect to be badly grilled for this topic but I have been wondering over this for a long time: Why is there such a specific difference between American and European conductors?
American conductors are usually extremely skilled and professional. They have all the tools in the box and know all the mechanics to deliver a superb result from the orchestra usually with a lot of energy. But I never get the hairs standing up because I miss something; maybe it’s the poetry inside the music.
European conductors on the other hand are often more unpredictable. They have often developed a very personal style that can take some time to come to terms with for the musicians. They usually have a very close personal relation to the music that they want to come across and sometimes it doesn’t. But when the communication is on top it’s usually pure magic.
In two weeks time we’re doing Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony with Leonard Slatkin who I admire a lot. I played it a few years ago with a maybe less famous Russian conductor but who as a young boy was sent by train from Leningrad shortly before the Germans arrived. The train broke and he had to walk back to Leningrad only to find the city in flames. Shostakovich always wanted him to tell that story every time they met. His performance of this piece was as you may understand extremely emotional. It shall be interesting to see if there are any major differences in approach.
Alphie
Post Edited (2006-10-10 23:39)
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-10-10 23:47
Alphie ... I think you're making sweeping generalisations. Conducting is a skill that is personal, not driven by race (that's my two cent's worth).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-10-11 00:25
Alphie:
Can you tell if the conductor is American or European by listening to CD or radio? Or even live performance? If not,what you're saying is non-sense.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-10-11 01:01
I see the point. For many, MANY years I had been very disappointed with the quality of "home grown" conductors prefering to listen to anything conducted by Herbert von Karajan. I went as far as to write off our continent for the dirth of truly inspiring music making that was happening here. Of course I never made it to Germany and this made me become a little more humble and pragmatic about the whole thing.
I do feel, however, that music is something that Europeans live and breathe in a way that few outside of the milieu could ever understand. There are professional orchestras all over Germany to include Radio orchestras and Theatre orchestras. Nothing like that here. Just listen to a Vienna Philharmonic rendition of Johann Strauss and nothing else could ever compare.
There are also SO many imported conductors (or those who have conducted) who conduct our orchestras, Rostapovich, Abbado, Blomstedt, Masur, Muti...... Was that all just to soothe our taste for the chic?
Now, we have our own horn to toot such as Bernstein.......and then there is always...........um ........well............hmmmmmm.
Alphie, I'm sorry the majority would rather do the easy thing and criticize you on prejudicial grounds rather than look at this objectively. I wonder what all their record collections look like.....all John Williams perhaps.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-10-11 01:53
Paul states:
"Alphie, I'm sorry the majority would rather do the easy thing and criticize you on prejudicial grounds rather than look at this objectively. I wonder what all their record collections look like.....all John Williams perhaps."
... and your comment is more valid because you cleared what point exactly?
As to my collection ... has absolutely no Karajan in it because I don't personally like his interpretations, nor does it have any Michael Tilson Thomas for the same reason.
As to the Vienna Philharmonic, a GREAT orchestra that I heard live last week. I did NOT leave either of the two concerts floating on cloud nine, nor with the hairs on the back of my neck aroused. Unlike, when I heard the New York Phil under Bernstein in the 70s.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-10-11 10:05
Guess I don't have the same perception about conductors.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-10-11 13:09
Alphie -
Every European town has an opera house. That's where conductors cut their teeth.
Opera isn't about civilization. It's about love, rage, crude jokes and huge egos. It begins where instrumental music leaves off.
When you listen to instrumental music, every phrase makes a difference. In opera, the time frame is much longer. There are no interesting phrases in the first five minutes of Das Reingold, just the precursor of minimalism. If you listen to it the way you listen to a Mozart symphony, you'll go nuts, or fall asleep.
An opera conductor has to pay attention to dozens of things in addition to the orchestra -- acting, lighting, stage machinery, costume malfunctions, singers 100 feet away, the prompter shouting out the words and fat singers trumpeting like elephants, thinking of "la voce" first and music tenth, if at all.
When people are in the mood for control, refinement and virtuosity, they go to an orchestra concert. When they want blood, gore and guts, they to to the opera.
To the extent that European conductors are, as you say, unpredictable, it's because they've grown up in an unredictable environment.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-10-11 15:53
My husband and I when listening to the radio and hearing a slow pendantic interpertation of what should be a dance like piece by a symphony always turn to each other and say: British.
I cannot recall being wrong.
Other than that I don't hear a national style on the radio. My experience locally here in California is that the Russian immigrants, particularly those I've met trained in Moscow, play with great passion compared to the Asian and other immigrants or the locals. My son's primary piano teacher was a Russian immigrant and he can make me cry when he practices and not from pain as happens when I practice sometimes. I have suspected that a greater level of romanticism survived in Russia in particular. I had not noted it in the playing of other Europeans however.
I will note that this is just the people I've happened to meet and may not really generalise into the whole of the world.
Post Edited (2006-10-11 15:56)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-11 16:23
ginny, I would counter that 'slow' does not always imply 'pedantic'. Some of my all-time favorite recordings are those of Sir Adrian Boult, who often took his tempi on the deliberate side but whose interpretations, in my opinion, are some of the deepest, most thoughtful and most passionate of any conductor of any nationality. He has made recordings of the Shostakovich 6th and Vaughan Williams 7th ("Sinfonia Antarctica"), to take two examples, that still give me goosebumps even after many listenings. His slower tempi often bring out details that are lost in many of the more typical 'crash-boom-rush' interpretations by other conductors. Same applies to the recordings of Thomas Beecham.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-10-11 18:59
I've often heard the same said about instrumentalists on opposite sides of the pond. Americans are supposedly primarlily concerned with "nailing it" while Europeans are supposed to be more individual. I've come across far too many exceptions to this theory to regard it as being true.
Alphie- you've obviously never worked with William Christie?
Generalisations by definition are over-simplifications. Alphie, I think this is the first time I've disageed with something you've posted!! Do you think your views on this topic may not be completely objective?
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-10-11 19:02
Slatkin is notorious among musicians I've talked to for being technically perfect (he has a photographic memory, I believe) and emotionally aloof. While I'd agree generally with what you are saying about the difference between American/European conductors (especially with regards to the opera houses in Europe being great training grounds), Slatkin is not the best example, because even for American conductors, he is thought of as stiff. There are a few Americans who can add that extra something special- like Thomas Schippers (no more, of course) and James Levine. I think, especially with the relatively new conducting program at Aspen (with David Zinman, another example in my opinion) and more young conductors recognizing that they need to go Europe and conduct opera, this will improve in the next twenty years at the top level of conducting. Of course, there are plently of bad conductors everywhere!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-10-12 07:45
Liquorice wrote:
“I've often heard the same said about instrumentalists on opposite sides of the pond. Americans are supposedly primarily concerned with "nailing it" while Europeans are supposed to be more individual. I've come across far too many exceptions to this theory to regard it as being true.”
I generalized slightly on purpose to raise the question and to open up for various arguments. I’m of cause not objective and I didn’t make a statement, but the question about American/European conductors and the general differences between them have often been discussed in my orchestra over a beer in the bar after concerts.
We have had an American chief conductor for seven years now with a fantastic development for the orchestra. The collaboration has been a great success with tours all over Europe, Japan and the US with further invitations in the future. Over this period we have also had several American guest conductors; most of them have been highly ranked with chief positions in other orchestras. What they all have in common is the strive for a tight, well balanced orchestral sound with ultimate precision and maintained control by the conductor. We have had great concerts with most of them. What we notice is just that the general approach to the score is different to most European conductors.
From my observations over the years, again very general and subjective, I feel that American conductors are very faithful to the score without adding so much personality or interpretation. The score is more like an instruction to be followed as it’s written, a more intellectual approach. The result is usually very solid and untouchable but often pale and a bit too safe to be really exciting but very professional.
The European tradition is more risky. European conductors often have an approach based on a tradition that can be good or bad but always a reason for discussions. Generally they don’t interfere in individual solos and if the orchestra is on track they often drop out nicely and leave it until they are needed again. If everything works as intended, the music feels created at the moment and less of a “product”. But there is often a fine line between a bad and an excellent performance, less safe but often exciting musically.
These are just my personal general reflections and there are of cause many exceptions.
Alphie
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-10-12 08:15
Alphie
I am sure at some level you have a point but it is more varied than the generalisation says (as you have said yourself, of course). You only have to think of Bernstein to see that the US culture can bring forward people who let it all hang out. We British recently have had the benefit of fine US conductors coming here to work and making great successes. I for one admire Slatkin's qualities though I do understand some people may think he is not as up beat now as he was once. Marin Alsop is having greaty reviews though I have yet to have the chance to attend one of her concerts. Then there is the other one whose name I can't remember but might now be with the Dallas (he was with Bournemouth over here). These are really excelent conductors who creagte something more than technically competent performance.
A word on Adrian Boult (which might apply to others). He is the ideal recording conductor because you are not wowed by the first listening but become progressively more entranced by the performance as it is repeated. This is because he understands how to get the most out of a particular musical structure without pulling out all the obvious emotional stops. Nor was he always slow. In many pieces he went much faster than average (note his Brahms Serenades). Even when going medium pace the metre is always well sprung (hear Schubert 9th). All Boult needs is your patience and then you will be impressed. That may true of many conductors whether US or European, who may not impress first time round but are still doing something special.
All this is from the perspective of the listener. The musical desires of the professional performer may not be quite the same, but in that case I can bet performers won't all agree. Though they do agree that an arrogant conductor is indeed no good.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-10-12 08:24
If there is an 'American' approach and a 'European' approach then I think that this is a good thing. Often, we have discussed here whether the fact that performers perform across the world and recordings of any major artist are available in most countries mean that national (or individual) identities are getting lost, resulting in a homogenising of style. Conductors are among the most important and influential interpeters of music, and as far as I am concerned, the more difference, the better. Whether you like an individual or not is purely your choice, but variety is definitely the spice of life (unless you play your clarinet after eating pizza. Then your reeds taste of garlic!)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-10-12 11:16
The observation that there is an analytical tendency in American music is an excellent point. I recall a rehearsal were a particularly awkward articulation was rehearsed to death until we got it right, only to later learn that it was a typo.
The inner workings of the music need to help define the performance more than every little printed bit. This should not be an American thing or a European thing but a musical thing.
I also agree that Marin Alsop is a phenomenal conductor (can't believe that I forgot her wonderful performances in Atlanta). There is also the recent recordings of James Levine with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. The ones I've heard of Wagner Overtures and Tchaikowski's Sleeping Beauty are indeed electric.......let's have more of THAT !!!!
........Paul Aviles
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