 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-09-14 03:30
For single lip players, it is very important to engage the upper lip downwards to counteract the force of the jaw. One can read stories about Marcellus discussing the moment he "figured it out" in regards to upper lip. Is it possible to use too much upper lip pressure?
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-09-14 04:07
I am experimenting with a new embouchure myself - just to diverge from your original query - if I may.
Due to a type of ''fatigue'' recently affecting my upper lip - on the right side only - I find it difficult and uncomfortable to use my (former) double lip embouchure. I know of a trombone playing colleague who has been forced in to early retirement due to chronic lip fatigue too, so I am taking some preventive measures, so that I, hopefully, don't succumb to a similar condition.
I have tried reverting to the standard single lip, but find it uncomfortable as well, so now I believe I am having some initial success with what you might call a ''no teeth'' embouchure.
If this sounds weird or totally unbelievable, I can vouch for it - so far anyway. To understand what I'm attempting here, try to play with the mouthpiece in the normal position, but held in place with the lips only - it's akin to a ''power pucker''!! The lips are of course, positioned beside the teeth, but not engaged in holding them in place and the teeth are not actually in contact with the mouthpiece.
It remains to be seen if this will be sustainable over the longer term.
(ps) I play a Vandoren JB5 & Rico 3+1/2 Royals, so my chops are fairly robust.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-14 07:16
To vin:
Your upper lip pressure is always same amount and opposite direction to the jaw pressure.
Otherwise your mouthpiece will start to move downwards.
In physics, it's called action and reaction (3rd law of Newton's).
Former physicist
Post Edited (2006-09-14 07:18)
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-09-14 09:39
''The lips are of course, positioned beside the teeth, but not engaged in holding them in place and the teeth are not actually in contact with the mouthpiece.''
This is somewhat misleading upon reflection - sorry - a correction is required.
The top lip IS curled under the top lip and the bottom slightly over as well. A better description possibly is that, it's a ''no pressure'' embouchure, as I am exerting no pressure with the teeth but holding the mouthpiece by lip pressure.
The experiment continues...................
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-09-14 13:42
Note to Ned:
If you are suffering "lip fatigue" as you call it, not engaging the upper teeth will only advance the fatigue. Think about it; with the single-lip embouchure appropriate reed pressure is the result of 1)the lower lip curled back over the lower incisors, and 2) the upper incisors. The upper lip has then only to essentially complete the closure.
Granted, it still takes some effort on the part of the upper part of the orbicularis oris but not anywhere near as much as when we use both upper and lower lips alone (whether they're curled back over top and bottom incisors or not, although this latter is obviously easier on the O. oris than a straight two-lip embouchure).
Fatigue of the chops is a very real problem. Freddie Hubbard had to practically abandon his career. At last report (I may not be up to date here) he was surviving on record royalties, and not too well, according to him.
Being an older guy I worry about this too.
BTW, no charge for the consultation.
Doc b/
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-14 15:08
Many great players used the double-lip embouchure. Ralph McLane advocated the use of very little lip pressure and said "The mouthpiece rests in a bed of roses." On the other hand, he said that nobody had built up his upper lip muscles as much has he had, so what seemed to be light lip pressure to him was probably more than most people could exert even for a few seconds.
I was at an Anthony Gigliotti master class when he was asked about double lip. He said he wished he could use it, but he played on extremely hard reeds and could never build up a thick enough callus on his upper lip to be able to play without pain. He said he compensated by building up his upper lip muscles so that he could press down hard enough that his teeth barely touched the mouthpiece.
Guy Chadash, who plays single lip, says that the clarinet should be held almost vertical, so that the upper teeth touch the mouthpiece almost at the tip, while the lower lip is well down the reed (at the point where the reed separates from the rails).
On the other hand, anatomy is destiny. Players who hold the clarinet vertical tend to have receding chins -- Ralph McLane, Robert Marcellus, Bernard Portnoy, Daniel Bonade, Guy Chadash, etc. You do what works.
Finally, I play double lip and have worked hard to build up my upper lip muscles. I think you can never build up your upper lip to the point where you put too much downward pressure on the mouthpiece.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-09-14 15:42
I agree with Mr. Shaw.
There are great double-lip players, there are great single-lip players. There's no one-size-fits-all solution. When I began playing many years ago, double-lip was in vogue. Nobody questioned it. We all just played that way. I subsequently learned to play single-lip and can do it with ease but still prefer the double-lip feel. I have no problem with cutting of the lips, either the upper lip or the lower lip. I practice standing up and never support the instrument on my knees when sitting in a chamber music situation.
Who's to say which is better? Not me. In fact, I think that proper tone production -- which is to say good control, a rich and vibrant tone, clean articulation, good intonation and all the rest -- is possible using either method. What might be helpful, however, is for people who can only play single lip to at least give double lip a serious try before pronouncing it outmoded. Speaking only for myself, I find that it does make certain things much more natural.
Paul Globus
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-14 17:31
One way to combat fatigue is to play out of different sides of your mouth by moving the clarinet over a little bit to one side or the other. The are natural "stops" driven by your teeth as to where you can play. Although this sounds weird (and feels weird at first) it actually helps me, particularly if I'm playing for long periods after a period when I haven't practiced much (no, not me!).
-Randy
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-09-15 03:22
Everybody talks about the double lip embouchure but nobody ever explains in detail exactly how to get started, from A to B to C. They say, "try it for a while, etc." Most treatises in print lack a plan as well. They all tell us how wonderful it is and that so-and-so plays it and look where he/she is!
We're idiots! We need someone to tell us, "Put the horn in your mouth between both lips. Do not touch the teeth on the mouthpiece, play open G for 2 minutes, play clarion C for two minutes, play low F for two minutes and stop. Play no more that day", or "play then on your regular chops", or "stop for an hour and re-commence with the double lip," Or whatever!
Now I just made this up. I have NO idea how to get started and advance the skill. I do know that whenever I've tried it it hurt like hell and my upper teeth bit into my upper lip and i stopped after 30 seconds or if I didn't bite down my orbicularis oris was a basket case and my tone was verstunckt and the horn wanted to fall on the floor because I couldn't figure a way to support it other than placing the bell on my knee, and who wants to play that way? If your dog bites your ankle you might jerk your leg and drive the mouthpiece through your hard palate.
Besides, that's where my girlfriend sits.
b/
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-15 04:23
Ken,
I've heard that, but I've also found through experience that if you practice the technique enough it works quite well. As long as the ear knows what a good tone is and the mouth produces it the results will speak for themselves.
I know that many fine players and educators advocate a set position, but I've found that the ability to play with slightly different oral set-ups gives you the ability to adapt. For example, if your lip is sore, you can roll the lip in or out to prevent from wearing a hole. The ability to play left- or right-of-center is invaluable when the canker sore pops up right in the middle of your lip or your lip splits and refuses to heal after bad chapping.
I used this technique quite often when playing what felt like hundreds of hours non-stop during national holidays when I was with the Navy Band...kept me from biting a hole through my lips.
I do have a caveat...this technique has to be used with care by a good enough instrumentalist to know what a good sound is.
-Randy
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-09-15 04:25
I thank everyone for their input, and it certainly enough to think about, but only one person has really answered my question- can you use too much upper lip pressure, so as either to cause fatigue quickly or moving the mouthpiece out of position, or any other reason?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-09-15 12:38
Vin, perhaps there is no answer. I learned clarinet playing double lip and never even thought to question if anyone played single lip. And...I didn't question the pain, rawness,bleeding that it caused but simply played through it and eventually those discomforts ceased after several months.
For the life of me,however, I still can't figure out why most sax players play single lip when, it seems, sax players play with weaker embouchures than clarinet players.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-09-15 13:18
This for Bruno and his desire for a good explanation of double lip embouchure. The best I have ever read is in Tom Ridenour's book, The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet. He explains basic tone production quite well, in my opinion. He shows that the principles of a correct embouchure are essentially the same, whether you play single lip or double lip. I would say that the whole business is a lot simpler than we tend to think. But I certainly understand Bruno's frustration in not quite understanding the mechanics. Tom's book is a good solution. And there's a lot more in those pages that clarinet players will find interesting.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-15 14:56
Vin -
Where does Marcellus discuss how he "figured it out"? Is it available on-line?
Ken Shaw
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-09-15 16:23
"Author: Koo Young Chung (---.hsd1.il.comcast.net - ISP in Des Plaines, IL United States)
Date: 2006-09-14 07:16
To vin:
Your upper lip pressure is always same amount and opposite direction to the jaw pressure."
Gravity!!!!! friction on the sides if you hold those. You didn't set that problem up well.
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-09-15 17:14
Ken-
The story is in an old post. It's a Greg Smith story (of course- what a resource!). That's what got me wondering- given it's importance, can you have too much of a good thing?
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=64366&t=64339
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-09-15 20:47
"Can listener tell if a clar player uses double lip or single?"
If listener keeps his eyes open maybe yes.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-16 00:11
To qinny:
Gravity is already balanced by your facial muscles whether you hold the mp
in your mouth or not.
And when it's not moving,there's no friction involved.
from physicist
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