 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-15 11:52
You gentlemen and women were excellent resourses when I purchased a new clarinet 2 years ago. I followed your advice and got a great horn. I've recently become lead alto in a community college big (jazz) band and decided it may be time for a new alto. I'm playing a 50+ year old Buescher Aristocrat (great sounding horn with orange case).
The help I need is what variation can I expect between altos of the same brand and model? Do I need to play 8 or 10 to find that one really great horn like you recommended with the clarinet? Or would one or two be enough? When deciding between brands should I play more than one of each? I plan a couple of days at WWBW (or Muncy's which is closer). It will depend on their inventory.
At the moment my sentimental favorite is one of the Selmer pro horns. I need help.
Thanks in advance, BB
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2006-06-15 12:26
Maybe this is a dumb question, but what's wrong with a great-sounding Buescher Aristocrat? They were among the finest saxophones ever made, have excellent tuning tendencies, pretty comfortable keywork, and can slug it out with anything made today.
Even if your Aristocrat could use an overhaul, doing so would seem to get you more bang for the buck than shelling out thousands of dollars for a new Selmer, Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Keilwerth, etc. I doubt they'd really play significantly better than your Aristocrat - that's a great saxophone.
(FWIW, I have a 1950 Aristocrat baritone that plays exceptionally well. Much better, in my opinion, than my buddy's 1964 Selmer Mark VI.)
There are also less expensive new horns that play really well, such as Cannonball, P. Mauriat, Jupiter and so on.
Best of luck.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-15 12:54
Wicked, nothing wrong with the Buescher. Had it overhauled about 3 years ago when I started playing again. Like all clarinet players I'm looking for some magic that will make me sound better, and maybe, even play that strange minor progression jazz lick for me.
I don't know, maybe I just feel like a new horn. It's kind of like golf. Every couple of years you need a new driver or putter or whatever in hopes that it makes you better. It usually doesn't.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-06-15 13:23
There are a few (less expensive) Taiwan-made horns of merit; including both Antigua Winds and P. Mauriat.
None of these seem to hold residual value - so you had best LOOOVee it.
FYI - If you're after a value player with little following, and a big bore sound, the B&S saxophones are undervalued.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-06-15 13:40
For my 2 cents worth [less?], while some of the "golden oldies" play "with much nostalgia", the great improvements made by Selmer [the Supers and Mark 6's +] particularly as regards the left little finger plateau keying [also the rt hand L F "pair"], influences me to avoid recommending the G O's, and even recommending the lesser-expensive, but modern !, Bundy/Vito/Yammies, etc which have copied Selmer's significant advantages, once their patents ran out !! I have a beautiful Leblanc Model 100, L's competition to the Mark 6's of the 50's +, which "handcuffs" my ability to play the bottom notes, so I always play my M 6 alto, I gave my M 6 tenor to our elder son, who loves it ! Sorry for long sentences, I did a lot of "patent-writing" in my youth . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-15 13:53
Buster,
If you don't mind, could you give us the serial number of your Buescher Aristocrat (ie, like 2806xx). If you do that I can determine it's year of manufacture. This will help to give me a better idea about the quality of your Aristocrat.
I'm in COMPLETE AGREEMENT with the message from Wicked. Buescher Aristocrats -- especially, the ones made in the 1930's to around 1951 or 52 -- are absolutely superb horns. I, personally, would chose a 30's Buescher over any new saxophone on the market today. I've had Selmer MK VIs. Definitely fine horns. However, the Bueschers that I've played have much better intonation than the MK VIs that I owned. I also prefer the sound of a Buescher over a Selmer's. (A Buescher's low range is so powerful that it's like a force of nature!) Part of this is personal preference and part is an understanding that vintage Bueschers were made with a level of craftsmanship, design, and quality of materials that are difficult to duplicate today.
It's my recommendation that you keep your Aristocrat and explore how you might be able to fine-tune your mouthpiece, reed, ligature set up so that you can get the best possible sound, response, and projection from your vintage horn. What are you currently using?
Just to throw out a suggestion, I've found Ralph Morgan L (large chamber jazz) model mouthpieces to be a GREAT match for Bueschers. I use a 6L (.090) on my 1934 Buescher tenor. What a sound! It's dark, fat, robust, and extremely resonant. Plus, it has a remarkable level of projection. I have no problem with my Buescher being heard in the back of a hall through a roaring big band. I cannot help but think that a Morgan L will bring your Aristocrat to life in a way that will make you feel like you're playing a different horn. Really, it's that good.
Good luck to you!
Roger
Post Edited (2006-06-15 14:13)
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-15 14:26
Roger, serial number 336677 on top with a 140 under that. I believe I purchased the horn in 1951. As far as mouthpiece is concerned, my primary mouthpiece is a Selmer C* with a VD Java 3 or 3-1/2 reed. I also occassionally use a Selmer Larry Teal and my old mouthpiece is a Runyun (can't read the number on it any more). The Buescher overhaul was with snap in pads. Plays in tune. I've never had a problem with that. Projection is good. I can be heard.
What do you think? Need a Morgan?
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-15 15:52
Buster,
Your 336xxx Buescher -- probably late 1950 or early 1951 -- should be a perfectly fine horn. There are some hard-core Buescher fanatics that have a "340 line" in not using Bueschers that came after the 340xxx serial number. So, your horn has a desired serial number. I'm especially happy that your horn retains the snap-in pads. It's my personal opinion that you'd be crazy to swap this horn for a new saxophone of lesser quality.
Selmer C* and Larry Teal mouthpieces are mostly used for classical or concert band. They are not going to give you the power and more vibrant sound you need for playing lead alto in a big band. There are any number of modern mouthpieces that can work well on a 1951 Buescher. My general advice would be to take your horn to a local music shop that has a good selection of mouthpieces and try a bunch of them to see if you find something that you like better than your Selmer C*. Also, be sure to check your horn's intonation against a tuner to make sure the mouthpieces you're trying are a good acoustical match for your Buescher. One thing to remember is that the way that you sound in a music shop or at home might be different than how you sound playing in a big band in a larger performance space.
One bit of advice about alto sax mouthpieces... Some music shops might automatically stear you to a Meyer and tell you that many of the great alto players used a Meyer. It's true. But, most of those guys (like Phil Woods, Cannonball, etc) used an OLD Meyer that was made before Meyer mouthpieces started to be made by the Babbitt company in the 70's. Simply put, a new Meyer is nothing like the old ones. Many of the alto guys I know who play a new Meyer had the mouthpiece refaced by a professional refacer so the piece has measurements closer to an old Meyer.
As an aside, do you know how old your C* is? The Selmer C* has gone through, I think, somewhere around 7 versions in its history. The old C* pieces are quite good. Never the less, it's still not a good big band mouthpiece.
If you can find a Morgan L I think that you'll really like it. I'm very picky about my sound. I've tried a lot of saxophone mouthpieces over the years and I've never been as happy with a mouthpiece as I am with a Morgan 6L on my '34 Buescher. The sound rings!
Java reeds are a good selection. I'd suggest that you stick with them. The two saxophone reeds that Ralph Morgan personally recommends are Java and Alexander.
What type of Ligature are you using? In my experience, a silver Francois Louis ligature or a Vandoren Master's can help to open up your sound and give you a better level of response and projection than a traditional two-screw metal lig. Above all, I've found that fabric ligs (Rovner clones) have a muffling effect on my sound. I'm currently using a Vandoren Master's and get excellent results with it. Tweaking your set up with a more responsive ligature can help to get more out of your sound. It's a lot cheaper than getting a new horn! ha ha ha
Hope this helps.
Roger
Post Edited (2006-06-15 16:08)
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-15 16:28
Thanks, Roger (and the rest of you). It sounds like I should just use my old Buesher and get a new mouthpiece and maybe a ligature. It's certainly less money than the $3500 - $4000 I'd spend on a new horn. I'd get a new case, but my wife likes theorange one. She says it has character.
BB
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-06-15 23:48
Everything important has pretty much been said. You have a good horn. If you're looking for something a bit different, no biggie. Just keep the Buescher and save to expand your 'collection'.
-JfW
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-16 02:08
How well a sax goes, for ANY respectable brand, is hugely dependent on its state, not just the adjustment, but also the foundation of reliability, the 'engineering' infrastructure. Because there are so many linkages involved, and the issue of metal flexing in the larger mechanism is significant, and because the instrument is fundamentally flimsy, this is a far greater issue for saxes than for clarinets.
If it is very old, and has had significant use, and has not had a very major overhaul, then there will almost certainly be sufficient wear in pivots, non-level tone holes, non-resilient pads, inappropriate (by modern standards) linkage silencers, leaking neck tenon, etc, which will introduce a large number of small leaks. These interfere severely with performance and reliability.
If you are looking at a new sax, then it almost certainly also needs attention to deal with leaks.
The best chance you have of getting excellent engineering, good setting up, and excellent reliability, IMO, is to go for Yanagisawa.
Yamaha higher models are good too. Yamaha student instruments are great in that they are robust (very important for a sax!) and have excellent acoustic design. However the stack key pivots are usually sloppy, the tone holes are not quite level, and the pads are hard (although very long lasting) and hence unaccommodating. This combination introduces small leaks, but Yamaha's acoustic design is so good that the sax plays well in spite of them.
Many cheaper ones are available now, but unless you know the track record test of time of such a brand, and know that the imports all come from the same factory (rather than just the same exporter), and have it well checked by a good technician prior to purchase, you run a considerable risk of buying a heap of very expensive future problems. For example, some cheap pads look fantastic, but are do not have a leather surface, and cut through within a year or two. Or they have a synthetic felt that is springy instead of having the right accommodation properties of wool felt. Or they are incredibly sticky. Repadding a sax is a much bigger job than repadding a clarinet. If your cheap sax needs repadding after two years, and the cost is more than the cost of a new cheap sax, then the sax clearly has zero value after those two years. And there are far more issues than just the pads. I recently saw pivot rods that looked like nails that had been hammered to death on an anvil - grossly bruised and distorted..... brand new!!!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-06-16 15:32
Hi,
I will referenece 1950s instruments only in the following.
As a young player in that period , the Selmer Paris was the sought after instrument. I had a Balanced Action Tenor and my sister had a Mark VI alto that I still play today (only one repad has taken place). These were exceptional instruments. There were two other brands that were top models about that time, the King Super 20 and the Buescher 400 Top Hat & Cane.
However, I am sorry to say that the Aristocrat was the second-level of the Buescher instruments (like the Martin Indiana). Although a loyal following has developed, IMHO the Aristocrat was not as good as the 400 (I'm sure I will get blasted). The Martin Tenor and Alto were great instruments and sought after but they were also second-level; I did not know a lot about Conn saxophones at the time.
What's my point? Well, although the Artistocrat in question is a nice instrument, it will never be a Selmer, King Super 20, or Buescher 400 no matter what you do (MPs, reeds, ligature). Why put a lot of money into an overhaul if you are going to only have a good second-level instrument. Also, the ergonomics of "better" saxes are what I really enjoy.
If you have read my posts about acquiring a backup alto and tenor, you will know that Yamaha really gives up little to the Mark VIs I now play. Why not get a model YAS 62 alto as the new instrument (my backup tenor is a YTS 475 and it is fantastic). I did get a NOS Super 80 alto on a well-known auction site for about the same as a new YAS 62II; it plays great and was considerably less than the $3,500-4,000 mentioned for a new instrument.
I'll probably never see it but in 30 years, I'll bet we will be talking about those fantastic Yamaha YAS 62IIs that came out just after the turn of teh century. Why not buy a future legend now at 2006 prices?
HRL
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-16 17:06
Hank,
Here's my understanding of the Buescher models in the early 50's.
The 400 Top Hat & Cane went into production around 1942 (295xxx) and was marketed along with the Aristocrat into the 1950's. Prior to the 400, Buescher produced one model at a time -- ie, the True Tone through the early years and 1920's, the New Aristocrat in 1932 to 1934, and then the Aristocrat in 1935. Around 1940 (291xxx) a new version of the Aristocrat called the Big B came out and continued to around 1955. Thus, it was a change in strategy for Buescher to market the 400 and Aristocrat together as top-of-the-line horns in the 40's and 50's.
The Aristocrat should not be considered to be a "second-level" instrument in comparing it with the 400 TH&C. Both models are of equal quality and craftsmanship. Rather, they reflected two different approaches to the saxophone. The Aristocrat followed the earlier Buescher tradition in having a darker and more complex sound. (The TT and NA were darker and more focused than the Aristocrat) On the other hand, the 400 has a brighter sound that fit the changing tonal conceptions of the saxophone in the 40's and 50's.
Over the years I've played all of the Buescher models. The 400 TH&C is a great horn. No question about it. The Aristocrat is also a great horn. Choosing between them comes down to personal preference and one's tonal conception. Personally, I prefer the darker and more complex sound of a 30's Aristocrat. In fact, my saxophone of choice is a '34 New Aristocrat as I prefer it's darker sound over a later model Aristocrat.
All of the saxophones that you mentioned -- Martin, Selmer, King, etc -- are high quality instruments. It's a wonderful thing to have a gathering of saxophone buddies and we get to try out each other's vintage horns. If I wasn't so deeply into Buescher (it's a perfect match for what I want in a saxophone) I could be perfectly happy playing a Martin or a King Super 20.
One reason why I suggested to Buster that he keep his Aristocrat is that it had been overhauled not that long ago and it sounds like Buster is not having any problems with it. Reading Buster's original message between the lines it seemed to me that he might be having a G.A.S. (gear acquisition syndrome) attack....as we all have now and then.
I cannot help but think that if there's no over-riding reason to get a new horn then why spend the money on one? It's been my experience that if I have an instrument that is in good mechanical condition, has good intonation, and a sound that fits my tonal conception then I'm about 90% home free. I can then experiment with and fine-tune my mouthpiece, reed, and ligature set up to get to the remaining 10%. It's my feeling that if I have a killer mouthpiece, reed, and ligature set up I can sound good on just about any brand and model of saxophone....as I do when I get together with my sax buddies and we try out different horns.
PS, One thing that we need to be careful about is the hype and myth that can build up around certain makes and models of instruments. I've owned several Selmer Mk VIs and they were wonderful instruments. However, I've also played on some VIs that were terrible. Sometimes it comes down to an individual instrument within a serial number range being a truly exceptional horn. I've learned that blanket statements about saxophone brands and models sometimes need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Roger
Post Edited (2006-06-16 17:56)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-06-16 17:30
Great comments Roger et al, its a "pay your money, take your choice" situation, IMHO. My first sax, bot [in 1935 at $135] by grocery store working at 25 C/hour, was a Buescher Aristocrat, silver plated with "gold "bell, played it thru MSU and WWII. Just learning, I vaguely recall lipping it into tune on some notes. I then got a Martin "gold", was a "weekend warrier" for years, also borrowed a Martin Zephyr bari [lots of lipping !]. Then FOUND a Mark 6 tenor [cheap] in a pawn shop, poor cond, but limped along, great !, had it overhauled for son. Then I found a M6 alto [reasonable] and never looked back. My sax history briefly. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-06-16 17:52
Hi Roger,
Can't argue with your logic at all as for some people, the Aristocrat is the best choice. I have played Mark VIs as well as R13s that played at both extremes of the range. However, I still keep coming back to the Yamaha line as a wonderful sax for the money and quite consistent from model to model. But then, we know a whole lot more about manufacturing these days than we did 50 years ago.
HRL
PS I would like to drive a Yamaha if they made an auto.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-16 18:16
Hank,
I, too, agree with your thoughts about Yamaha saxophones. Excellent horns!
If I had the where-with-all to do it, I would take the best parts of various makes and models and put them into one totally fantastic horn. I'd take aspects of Buescher, Martin, Selmer, King, Yamaha, etc. But, I have yet to find such an instrument. So, we simply play whatever horn we're most comfortable with.
I have a great story about a saxophone buddy of mine who plays Yani saxes. Yani is certainly a high quality horn. Several years ago I had a 1920 Buescher True Tone tenor that had been recently overhauled. It had a HUGE sound. So, my friend is trying out this old Buescher. Without a doubt, it must have felt like going from a hot sports car (his Yani) to driving a farm tractor (the old Buescher) in respect to the keywork and overall feel. Never the less, when he discovered what a powerful sound the Buescher TT has -- especially in the lower range -- his eyes got all big and he said "Wow!". The huge sound of the old horn came as a revelation to him. His Yani couldn't match it.
If we could combine the great sound and special tonal qualities of the best vintage saxes with the improved keywork and other benefits of a modern saxophone we'd have a seriously killer horn on our hands!
It's been great talking with you and the others!
Roger
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-16 18:27
G.A.S. is probably what I have. Spending money appears the only way to cure it. I've ordered some mouthpieces to try from WWBW and will see if this makes me happier. If it does, I'll hold off spending money on a new sax. In any case, the next time I go north to visit my grandchildren, I'll stop in South Bend and try some new saxophones. I'll take Hank's advice and even try a Yamaha. I'm reluctant to buy an old vintage sax since I have one. New things apeal to me; cars, golf clubs, etc.
Incidentally, Hank, I just returned from a round on Pinehurst #2. Greens are at least as tough as Winged Foot. Shot a lucky 85 which is really great for me on #2.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-06-16 20:02
BB,
I'm sure the 85 at Pinehurst #2 was not a fluke (as is the quality of the newer saxes). But how about getting that new putter as well (instead of the trusty Bullseye or Ping you already own). In golf as well as in saxes/clarinets, GAS is still a major problem.
You are in an enviable position with the Aristocrat. A new MP or other accessories might get that extra percentage that you are looking for. I do like the combo sax that Roger spoke about. We can call it a Selamahanniacrat Super Mark 62SX Vintage or something very similar.
HRL
PS My pal Dave S. is probably reading every word written here. He is the consummate vintage guy!
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-16 21:31
I just bought a new Oddesey (spelling) 2 ball putter (also a new high launch driver). I love them. I guess I do have GAS. As far as the Selamahanniacrat is concerned, do you think one of the many excellent technicians we read about could put one together from a couple of E-bay saxes. I'll supply the Buescher if one of the Mark VI guys will supply one, and guess the Yamaha could come from you.
Might be a market for something like that.
BB
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-06-16 21:39
Have any of you guys ever played an Oleg sax? That's what I have. I know there aren't a whole lot of them out there, as they are custom made to order (and they ain't cheap either), but they are NICE. There is usually about a 6 month waiting list for them, sometimes longer. You have to order them direct from Oleg Garbuzov in L.A. so it's kind of hard to try one out unless you happen to be in the neighborhood, and I don't know if he will ship them out on a trail basis. He is real busy just keeping up with orders anyway.
But I am really curious if anyone else on the board has one, or has tried one out, as I have not seen them mentioned here.
Post Edited (2006-06-16 21:52)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-06-16 21:58
Hi SusieRay,
Man, the Oleg is way cool. Here is the link for the website. I'll bet those babies are not cheap. Susie, maybe you can email me the price.
http://www.olegproducts.com/about-oleg-products.asp
BB members, be sure to take the audio test that has a link at the top. That's a great test for your ears (I picked the Yamaha Custom). On the tenor, they did not disclose which sax you picked.
HRL
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Author: MikeH
Date: 2006-06-16 23:26
Years ago when I was a kid in 1957 I went to see Duke Ellington in Worcester Mass. It turned out that the band stand was very low with the soloist's mike so close to the edge of the bandstand that if you desired you could literally get right up next to anybody soloing. When Johnny Hodges was soloing I took the opportunity to take a peek at the engraving on his alto to see what brand he was playing: you guessed it, a Buescher Aristocrat, to my ears, when played by Hodges, the most beatifuol sound ever to come out of an alto saxophone.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2006-06-17 01:46
I have a Spencer Alto Sax, made in Taiwan, with a Yanigasawa mouthpiece. This sax is very light and plays well. I have frail wrists so can't hold anything really heavy. I've been very happy with the sax. I think I've had it for about 10 years now.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-06-17 02:00
As far as I understand it, Roger is right concerning the 400 and Aristocrat. Hank's version probably came about from the conventional wisdom dictating that the Aristocrat, during Buescher's waning years prior to the Selmer buyout, was the first and the more abrupt to begin it's "decline".
-JfW
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2006-06-17 06:04
As I remember it, the Aristocrat was the regular top line horn, the 400 was the deluxe model, and the second line or student line Buescher sax was called the "Elkhart". They had an engraving either of an elk or an elk's head on the bell.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-17 11:35
I just did the Oleg audio test. Interesting, I thought it sounded the best, but not by alot. I wonder what the price is?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-06-17 14:42
The Aristocrat and the 400 were both pro level saxes - and were extremely different from each other. The 400 made a great lead alto (or whatever) sax, but wasn't necessarily what you wanted in an ensemble. It had a big bell and projected like crazy. The Aristocrat was more versatile, perhaps, and was better competition for a Selmer. So while both were pro level instruments, the 400 should not be seen as an "upgrade" from the Aristocrat. They were two very different designs.
PS: I love my '49 Aristocrat!
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-06-17 19:23
Hank wrote:
"That's a great test for your ears (I picked the Yamaha Custom). On the tenor, they did not disclose which sax you picked."
I picked the Yamaha alto too. On the tenor test, I picked #1. As Hank says, they don't tell you which tenor is winning. A cynic might suppose that implies that the unmodified Selmer is way ahead.....
So what, my opinion is worthless. I was listening on a laptop on dialup, and I hate saxes anyway.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-18 00:19
Hank,
You're right! I intended to only give a simple overview of the Buescher models. The actual history, of course, is more involved.
If you really want to mess up your mind, do some research into the Buescher models that were marketed in 1955. At that time Buescher introduced a "Super 400". I played one in elementary and high school. It had many of the features of the earlier 400s; however, it's quality wasn't as good. Then, there was the "Big B" Aristocrat and the non-Big B Aristocrat. The difference between them? From everything that I've been able to learn, the only difference is in the ENGRAVING. Yet, some guys will pay more money for a Big B. It appears that in 1955 Buescher was marketing 4 pro-level models. Ouch!
Saxpics is a GREAT resource. I have a lot of respect for Pete (saxpics). Not withstanding, several Buescher experts I've gotten to know and also respect are of the opinion that Saxpics at times overly complicates the classification of some Buescher models. So, I guess it comes down to one's point of view about these things.
Roger
Post Edited (2006-06-18 01:18)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-06-18 03:46
Buster, I mostly play a Larry Teal using a Vandoren 2.5 or 3 and an Optimum lig. Quite frankly, that's not a very standard combination for an alto sax set-up, and I wouldn't suggest anyone rush out and follow my lead. I really enjoy sax(es), but I have a devil of a time shaking the rigid clarinet embouchure, so I tend to compensate by using closed-tip mouthpieces and softer reeds. It's crazy, and really doesn't make good sense, but as a card-carrying member of AARP, I'm allowed to be a bit eccentric. I take full advantage of that, I can assure you.
I recently acquired a wonderful Selmer C* metal mouthpiece from the '60's that I intend to work into my playing. I really enjoy variety, but the Aristocrat is truly a keeper.
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Author: Radjammin
Date: 2006-06-19 19:54
@ Bob aka Buster Brown,
I caught your thread a little late but as soon as you said you were doing lead work on a C* and a Larry Teal, a little flag went off,
Alert Alert - Legit Player playing Jazz --- Alert Alert!!!
Hahaha.
Seriously though, you do need to get a Lead Alto style mouthpiece before you go crazy and replace your horn. I am not saying you shouldn't replace your horn but you should at least get a better mouthpiece for Jazz first.
The C* tip opening is just way to closed for Lead Alto, and I suspect the Larry Teal has too small a chamber. There are both great mouthpieces for their Genre, just not for Jazz work, esp not lead work. I have used my C* at home for doing some recordings just so I can get a warmer tone at lower volumes but it's projection will not work for a live performance.
So get your Mothpiece setup working first, play on it for 2 months and then decide if you still need to replace the horn.
Your horn is pretty good like many have already said, but I can understanding wanting modern keywork. I recently sold my 6M for a Cannonball because I felt even if I had the horn overhauded I still wanted modern Keyworkings. I do miss the tone of my 6M, but I don't miss the mechianics.
Sax/Trumpet player
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-19 20:49
This is probably a matter of personal preference; but, for me, a horn's sound and intonation are the most important things that I look for in a saxophone. Keywork is secondary. If I'm playing a horn that has extraordinarily beautiful tonal qualities and older keywork I'll take the sound over the keywork any day of the week.
I can't help but think that keywork concerns may largely be a matter of what one becomes used to. Several years ago I borrowed a friend's new Selmer Series III and it felt terribly akward to me. It wasn't just the differences in the style of keywork. The angle of the neck and the placement of the neck strap ring (ie, the horn's center of gravity) also felt strange to me. The Series III is an excellent saxophone but I couldn't get used to it. Then, when I went back to my vintage horns I felt right at home.
Post Edited (2006-06-19 21:12)
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Author: Radjammin
Date: 2006-06-19 21:06
I have a great tone, no matter what horn I play. I always get completments. What I needed was to grow technically. For me I have allways learned better on a modern horns. Saxes, esp. the Spatula is an area that works better on modern horns. I actually liked my Palm keys and Front E better on my 6M, but there's no comparison on the action responce. My 49 conn showed it's age in action. I am sure an overhaul would have helped but with 10% lauquer left and my hands allways turning green it was $1200 for the full overhaul or $1400 for the 1 year old cannonball with the modern spatula.
I knew the horn well, played it for 8 years. Now it's in Austraila, hahaha. Got a good value for it on ebay. $650. It didn't have Rolled Tone holes.
Sax/Trumpet player
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-06-19 23:52
Radjammin, you may have gotten your posters mixed up. I'm the one with the Larry Teal and the metal C*, but I never mentioned anything about lead alto. I said "Follow my lead", as in, "go out and duplicate my setup." I play in an ensemble where those mp's work fine and are appropriate for my skill level. I've got Morgans, Brilharts, Vandorens etc sitting there waiting on me, but I still sound better on the tamer mp's.
Wish it twertn't so, but it is . . .
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2006-06-20 00:23
i agree with gordon -yani is best alto sax value. i have owned around 50 altos and the yani has them all beat . i own a large vintage collection now but the yani still is the one i take on most jobs. the 880 model is still my favorite despite being a n older desighn (mk6 copy)
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Author: Radjammin
Date: 2006-06-20 01:48
@Fred,
read the post
----------------------------- --
Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-15 14:26
-----------------------------------------
That's the post I was replying to. That should clear things up.
After reading your post Fred, I think we like different Sax tones.
I play a Jumbo Java MPC A55 with 2.5 Java reeds, about as open tip as you can get on Hard Rubber with Vandorean Masters Lig.
Feel free to listen to me on my site, www.vintagehorn.com. Listen to the MP3 player on the main page on the right.
I play a B45 Vandoren MPC on my clarinet, I have a great doublers tone, as my teacher said but my fingers are sloppy. mainly because I get hand cramps from clarient, esp. my right hand. It took years of playing to get less tense playing sax and I can't shake it on the Black Stick of Pain. Right now I got no braggin rights on Clarinet, only have played student models.
Been trying to buy a Conn 424N,444N, or 464N on Ebay. I like the Big bore Clarinets and they go on the cheap side. Hard to fine one with no cracks though. While I have a captive audience, should be looking for anything other then no cracks and no rust? Where are cracks the worst? Top Joint or Bottom?
Thanks for playin,
Radjammin
Sax/Trumpet player
Post Edited (2006-06-20 01:52)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-06-20 02:42
My apologies. I missed (or didn't remember) that earlier post. Uncanny about the similarities. Thanks for setting that straight.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-20 11:40
Radjammin,
You are right, of course, in that the lion's share of our sound comes from within us as players. Therefore, my core sound is present on just about any horn that I play. However, that's not really what I was talking about when I wrote about sound. Simply put, not all saxophones sound exactly the same. If that was the case there would be no reason to have so many brands. For example, it's been my experience that a late 20's Buescher has different tonal qualities from a late 20's Conn. With modern horns a Keilwerth will have a different kind of sound from a Selmer Series III.
When one tries a selection of saxophones it's possible that you'll come across one that has such exceptional tonal and performance qualities that it clearly stands out from the others and you're blown away by it. It's very much like love at first sight. That is what I was trying to describe. Whenever I've found such an exceptional horn I would be so impressed with its sound that if it had an older style of keywork I didn't care.
I had this experience when I first tried my New Aristocrat tenor. It has a quality of sound -- I describe it as "ringing" -- that I've never experienced before in another horn....and I've played on quite a few saxophones over the years.
As I mentioned before, all of this is a matter of personal preference as to what particular things are most important to us as players and what we look for in an instrument.
Post Edited (2006-06-21 01:02)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-06-21 16:45
Buster, from what I've read and heard from friends who play alto, you have the perfect horn right now. I agree with the suggestions that you spend some time and money on finding a different mouthpiece. You've had your horn overhauled, so you should be set for a while. Sometimes newer isn't better.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2006-06-24 11:48
I bought a new mouthpiece for the Aristocrat. I tried the Morgan's M,L and EL, EM as Roger suggested; they didn't work for me. For whatever reason the high E's, F's didn't sing. They were thin regardless of reed. Must be me.
At the same time I tried the Myers M, L. What a pleasant surpise. Both mouthpieces were super. More power, good tone, just what the doctor ordered for me and the lead sax part (soloing or emsemble). I ended buying a 6L. For now I'm using the ligature that came with it and a Java 3 reed. I'll be trying other ligatures soon.
Thanks for all the advice. I really appreciate it.
PS. My GAS is still pretty bad and I expect to try some altos next visit to Chicago.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-06-24 14:11
Buster,
Great! If you need help with GAS there are some folks on the SOTW Forum who can suggest treatment plans. ha ha ha
PS, If you are insistant on spending your money on a new modern horn I'd suggest a hand-made Borgani...in either silver or 24K gold. That will set you back a chunk but it's as good as it gets. It will leave any Selmer in its dust. If I was going to play a modern horn I'd be tempted to go with a Borgani. Oh yeah, then -- if you have any money left -- get a great looking Italian suit and some hip Italian leather shoes to go with your horn. That should take care of your GAS for a while!
Best Regards, Roger
Post Edited (2006-06-25 13:27)
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The Clarinet Pages
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