 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2006-04-19 13:10
I am wondering what are the characteristics of a mouthpiece with a long facing? I ask because I have been experimenting with a number of B40's and B40 Lyres. I found one of each model that I like, and my prerference is the Lyre in terms of sound production and ease of blowing. What is bothering me is that on the B40 which has a Medium-Long facing, I find it easier to smoothly go from say clarion A up to altissimo F# (1st page of Copland Concerto as an example). On the Lyre which has a Long facing, it is much more difficult to get a smoother transition and often a sort of undertone comes out. Is this something to get used to on Longer facings? Or is it just this mouthpiece? Or worse, is it me hahaha..
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-04-19 14:08
I would expect that mere length of facing is just one factor in a very much more complex mix such as rate of curvature, and ultimate tip opening. Whether anyone has arrived at some meaningful theory on the point would be interesting but I bet that it would incorporate more than mere length.
Have you tried short facings? They are very out of vogue but you never know what revelations they may produce (though I know you are trying to apply teacher guidance so too much experimentation may not be a good thing).
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-19 14:21
It depends on the facing curve but basically:
Long facing favors the low register of the clarinet but it's a lot harder to get a good response from the altissimo.
Short facing favors the high register but the chalumeau sounds somewhat dull.
Medium facing is the best of both worlds. IMO
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-04-19 17:06)
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2006-04-19 14:25
I've noticed that a really long facing gives a lot of vibrational resonance, which is especially noticable in chalumeau e, f, and g. I think perhaps because the reed vibrates from a much lower point it adds to the resonance.
The other thing that I like about long facing mouthpieces is that the tip openings are generally more open and less moisture collects between the reed and mouthpiece opening.
Granted I play on a mouthpiece that uses white master reeds, which are smaller than French moutpieces. So the sound of an open mouthpiece with a long facing doesn't get too airy. Like it does on french mouthpieces.
Bart de Jong
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-19 14:33
I agree with Vytas about the medium facing. It seems to work with all ranges and is more reed-friendly.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-19 14:35
Long facing length also require the player to put more of the mouthpiece in their mouth - more than I am personally comfortable with.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-19 14:41
Think of the facing curve as the fulcrum on a springboard... the reed being the flexible board. If you watch top divers in action, you will note that each has a preferred position for the fulcrum.
It's about optimizing the point of flexion for your chosen reed.
Go with the one that lets you play with least hassle - you'll get in more practice time. When reaching the topmost portions of the instrument, you may find that reed adjustments get you the most gains.
Ben Amato wrote a wonderful text on just that subject.
Amazing really, what a few judicious swipes of sand paper can do...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-19 15:15
I do like the analogy of the reed being like a diving board. But I think the fulcrum is the anchor point of the board nearest the "tip" which the diver has no control over. "Springboard divers" choose a "next to last" takeoff position whch could be likened to lower lip position on a reed...I guess. But doesn't the lip dampen the reed vibration? lPerhaps Benade has the answer.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-19 15:38
I'm using a Vandoren M30/13 88 Beak (enough identifying digits?).
Fred's right about having to take a whole lot of mouthpiece into your mouth to get your lower lip on the fulcrum. Recent advice from this BB suggests stuffing the horn into your mouth until open G squeaks to find out how much mouthpiece you should be playing. I stop often and do that because I have a tendency to revert to my familiar "shallow" bite. If I don't have enough mouthpiece in my mouth, the altissimo is very difficult.
While the jury is still out (I'm not very competent), I have trouble reaching cleanly into the altissimo register, and my alti notes stick out relative to their clarion neighbors (Kroepsch exercises).
I'm amazed that the altissimo tone color don't sound that much different (using my new recorder/mic); but they make every crossing of the upper break intimidating.
I am seriously considering having an M30 re-layed by someone who thinks that s/he can make one of these respond easier.
Bob Phillips
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-04-19 18:54
Dear Aussie Nick
I tend to prefer the long facings far more over the medium long or medium facings because of the warmth of sound in the lower register...however, the timbre in the upper register has to be worked on a bit more and on top of this finding a reed that gives just the right resistance may be the problem you are facing....rather than giving up give a bit time over to searching out a reed which will allow your sound to speak in both registers...also as usual make sure you have plenty of support for the tone as well.
David Dow
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2006-04-19 21:37
A major problem with these terms (close, medium, long) is that we lack general agreement as to their meaning.
Today's design preferences have changed somewhat from those of ~ 50 years ago.
For example, what was then considered a "medium French" facing would now probably be called a "short close" facing.
I seem to recall that one of the frequent posters on this BB set out guidelines for these terms but I can't find them.
A further problem is that we lack a standard method of measuring either tip openings or lay lengths.
Here is my take on what most of today's players mean when they use these terms.
The categories overlap because I do not intend to start WW III over whether a certain mpc is properly characterized as "medium close" or "medium".
This is just my way of getting a discussion started; I don't claim that these distinctions are necessarily the best ones:
tip opening in mm:
< 0.95 very close
0.95 -- 1.05 close
1.00 -- 1.10 medium close
1.05 -- 1.15 medium
1.10 -- 1.20 medium open
1.15 -- 1.25 open
> 1.25 very open
length of lay in mm:
< 16 short
16 -- 17 medium short
17 -- 18 medium
18 -- 19 medium long
> 19 long
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-20 12:20
The point of contact, where the unplayed reed LAST contacts the table of the mouthpiece would be the "unflexed" point.
The point of contact, where the reed is held by the embouchure would be the fulcrum in my analogy. That's the point most critical in my choice of a mouthpiece... if it is in the wrong place, for me, the mouthpiece is tiring and I feel the reed fighting my feeble attempts.
****
BobD is on the right track about the tip of the reed providing a tremendous amount of variation in response and tone color (particularly at moderate dynamic markings)... Ben Amato has a tremendous text that discusses this area of reed adjustment, at length.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-20 13:15
My best sounding and most comfortable mouthpiece has this measreuments:
tip opening - 1.21mm, facing length - 21.25mm
What would characterize a mouthpiece with these measurements?
I'm interested because I didn't know the measurements or even if the mouthpiece was open/close or long/short before I tried it and it was just comfortable and very good to me.
Actually just a few months of playing it I found out the tip and facing.
Thanks.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-04-21 18:44
Interesting topic! I'm reminded of an analysis that Ralph Morgan did in comparing an old Meyer brothers mouthpiece with a new (Babbitt Company) Meyer and noting the significant differences between them. In this article he describes how there is an optimal relationship between the tip opening, facing length, and reed strength range. In addition, there is a fairly narrow facing length range that is correct for the instrument's reed: 19mm - 21mm for alto sax reeds and close to 24mm or 25 mm for tenor. What I gather from this is if, as an example, an alto sax mouthpiece has a 25mm facing length it's going to be problematic as 25mm is ideal length for a TENOR reed....not an alto reed.
I wish that Ralph Morgan had a similar article about clarinet mouthpieces!
Never the less, it seems to me that clarinet mouthpieces with either extremely short or extremely long facing lengths are going to be problematic in the same way that Ralph noted in his article about saxophone mouthpieces with facing lengths that are outside of the ideal measurement for their reed.
http://www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/meyer.pdf
Roger
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-04-22 03:38
John S,
The problem with your chart is that there is no clear center point where the particular tip opening begins and where it ends. In this chart 1.10 mm tip opening can be medium close, medium or medium open. So it is very confusing.
Legit clarinet mouthpiece tip openings in US are in between 0.97 and 1.20 millimeters. Less than 0.97 mm tip opening is rarely used these days. Some German players still prefer very close tip with a long facing but in US it would be hard to find a player who use this type of facing. Tip opening around 1.20 mm is very popular in Europe. Some jazz or ethnic music players use very open mouthpieces with a tip opening sometimes reaching 1.60 mm. For classical music tip opening above 1.20 mm is rarely used.
USA (other counties might have different preferences)
tip opening in mm:
0.95 – very close
1.00 - close
1.05 - medium close
1.10 - medium
1.15 - medium open
1.20 – open
1.25 - very open
1.30&up – extremely open
_____________________
facing length in mm:
15 - short
16 - medium short
17 - medium
18 - medium long
19 – long
20&up – very long
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-04-22 03:42)
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2006-04-23 06:47
Vytas --
I personally agree with your table. In fact, I started out to post with those exact same numbers and descriptors.
The reason that the numbers associated with the descriptors overlapped was in recognition of the fact that different people use different descriptors for the exact same tip opening.
For example, the popular Vandoren B45 (~1.20mm tip) is a mpc both you and I would characterize as "open", although I have seen it variously described as "medium", "medium open" and "open".
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-23 07:00
Quote:
I tend to prefer the long facings far more over the medium long or medium facings because of the warmth of sound in the lower register...however, the timbre in the upper register has to be worked on a bit more and on top of this finding a reed that gives just the right resistance may be the problem you are facing.... I've found the same from the longer facing mouthpieces I've had. I loved the lower register, but the upper clarion and altissimo tend to need work. I have since switched to some "medium" all-around mouthpieces, but for a long time my main mpc of choice was a gigliotti P.
As said above, make sure you have a well-balanced reed and it's a proper strength. I find a quick balance of a reed side to side does wonders for my sound and response. And check where your lower lip contacts the reed. I constantly 'roll' my lip depending on where on the clarinet I'm playing. the higher I go, it gets a little looser and moves down the reed a bit. For the lower notes, my embouchure tightens up a bit and my lip moves up the reed a bit.
See if you can figure out exactly where your lip needs to be to overblow a clarion G# to an altissimo F without lifting your forefinger off the tonehole. If you can consistently overblow those clarion notes to the altissimo notes (granted they'll be out of tune, but you'll know when you have successfully overblown them and not just "squeaked"), then when you make that embouchure adjustment WHILE lifting your finger off the tonehole, it'll speak immediately.
Alexi
PS - as far as the undertone comes, that could probably be fixed with air support. Make sure you have a good column of air going through the clarinet.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2006-04-23 07:01)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2013-01-14 20:17
Many thanks to Alexi, whose post above (about establishing where your bite area needs to be based on overblowing G#) has helpd me considerably just now.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2013-01-20 23:55
If you play a long facing mouthpiece with the the right amount in your mouth they sound better and high notes come out really easily. I play a 1.06 with a 36 length. I don't have any problem with volume or high notes, and I get a nice resonant tone. Of course that could be the top lip too.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: annev
Date: 2013-01-21 02:39
My thanks to Bill Fogle for pulling up this thread from the past. Alexi's suggestion of initially overblowing (voicing) from clarion to altissimo to find the "feel" of the altissimo notes has been very helpful. Up until now I've been able to "run" up into the altissimo but have always had trouble with interval jumps into that register. This was really helpful and I'm finding the jumps consistently in my studies now. Thank you!
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Author: annev
Date: 2013-01-21 20:43
When you overblow a note, it produces the corresponding note for that fingering in the next register. So if you play clarion G, for example, and then "overblow", you will hear altissimo E, while still holding the clarion G fingering. I'm not sure what exactly I do for the note to overblow, but it may be a subtle change in embouchure, or the shape within my mouth. I just know that the sound suddenly "jumps" to the next register.
The surprise for me is that the altissimo notes E and F seem to be relatively free-blowing - certainly much more then I had thought. When I keep that feel and play the correct altissimo fingering, the notes speak easily.
Perhaps some one else will have a more technical understanding and explanation!
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