 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-03-17 03:54
Normally we all talk about the many great recordings that are available. I would like to discuss the other side of the coin, when players you usually admire reveal they are human and pull out a "shocker".
Here are some of my favourites:
1) Sabine Meyer "A Homage to Benny Goodman". This brilliant player swings with the subtlety of Spohr when playing transcriptions. The Goodman related Concertos are very good though.
2) Benny Goodman "Mozart Concerto". The king of swing performs quite a good Mozart quintet but his Concerto recording must have been done on a bad day.
3) Gervase de Payer "Brahms Sonatas". Loved his Rossini variations and Weber, Spohr Concertos but this Brahms leaves me cold.
4) Eddie Daniels "The five seasons". The jazz parts are brilliant the classical parts I thought why....?
I would be interested if others have some they could add. Note that the list is about players you actually like but are having an "off" day.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2006-03-17 08:10
Sabine Meyer, well, what more can be said, right?
When she performed the Copland here in Melbourne a few years ago, she squeaked! Sabine Meyer, squeaked!
AHEM, anyway... I also squeak, so, yeah...
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-03-17 10:01
Her Mendelssohn, Baermann and Weber recording was fabulous....well mistakes are a part of performance i guess?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-17 10:23
I prefer not to mention names, but one of my favorite classical players tried to play some jazz arrangments - good sound, excellent technique, but a total lack of swing ruined it....
Probably my favorite modern jazz clarinetist had some electronic on their new CD. The level of the electronic music on that CD is like someone who just learned how to use a computer.... His playing is still amazing and the electronic was actually done by someone else.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-03-17 14:49
Louis Cahuzac recorded in the days of direct-to-master 78s, with no splicing, and he didn't worry about the odd fluff, or even a squeak. His Mozart Concerto has a doozy, and there are several in his Nielsen Concerto.
Benny Goodman made some unfortunate recordings with Morton Gould and the Chicago Symphony. His Weber Concertos are not up to professional standards, and his Nielsen Concerto is a laughingstock. He took it at about half speed and still barely got through, and the snare drum part was reduced to a jazz drummer's light background accompaniment. There's a live LP of the Mozart Concerto and the premiere of the Malcolm Arnold Second Concerto that's best passed over in silence. However, I rather like his Mozart Concerto and Quintet recordings from the 1950s with the Boston Symphony players at Tanglewood, his first (mono LP) recording of the Copland Concerto and, of course, his Bartok Contrasts with Szigeti and Bartok.
Anyone can have an off day. There's no better player than David Shifrin, but I heard a live broadcast from the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center in which he got gobbled up by the Bartok Contrasts. He couldn't get the high altissimo notes out at all, he came to a dead stop in the cadenza, and things went down from there.
Ken Shaw
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-03-17 15:11
I no longer care if you play Buffet or Leblanc. But do yourself a favor and get an Apple computer!
Should I drive a Ford or a Chevy? 500,000 v. 500,000 other NASCAR fans would surely want to know.  )
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-03-18 08:07
Morrigan said:
"When she performed the Copland here in Melbourne a few years ago, she squeaked! Sabine Meyer, squeaked!"
By most accounts it was still a very good performance though, so perhaps it doesn't fall into the "shocker" category. Still it is comforting to hear that even Sabine Meyer squeakes, so thanks for that.
Ken, your info is pure gold. I remember as a student being quite intimidated by the Nielsen(still am now). I had heard Stanley Druckers immortal recording, the articulation was scary. If I had heard Benny's relaxed version maybe I would have worked harder on the piece. Must get hold of this recording.
I have a recording of David Shifrin playing the Weber quintet with other Weber works. Unfortunately this performance (for me) is but a pale shadow of my Antony Pay recording with the Nash Ensemble. Shifrin's vibrato, though musical, is a bit of a turn off (prob me being narrow minded). However, I have no problem with his finger technique which is great. Anyway thanks for the info.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-18 17:06
I guess it's a case of grasping at straws for things to post about. I just don't get the point of concentrating on such things.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-03-19 11:57
One must remember that these people are performers, and they get paid to play - often frequently. The demands on musicians rival those of professional athletes (who are also entertainers) - without benefit of trainers, and personal staff to keep the gear in top form.
Frankly, this line of reasoning stinks of schadenfreude and envy.
It's the same sort of drivel that generates circulation of the National Enquirer
or Gerry Springer.
Now go practice so we can pick apart your professional performances.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-03-19 14:57
I went to hear Sabine and she was great. I went to hear Eddie Daniels and he was fantastic. I went to hear to Mr Perfect and he was perfect. One should have open ears every time you listen to music. Everything comes in bad and good. Just because Sabine Meyer will do better than me every time she comes to "bat" she might not always be up to her standards. As long as we treat people with respect I see nothing wrong with poking fun at their brief encounters with mediocrity. The bad post would be.....I went to hear Sabine Meyer play last night. She squeaked....I take it she squeaks at every concert. How good can she be?
"If you haven't got something nice to say about Benny Goodman don't say anything" Where that might be a good tactic in life, it isn't good in the field of music criticism. We have to examine the perfection and blemishes. Benny isn't great because we ignore his weaknesses. He is great because of the total package. ....motivated, ground breaking, disciplined, inspired.
As long as the blemishes are not blown out proportion bring on the negative.
There is a new book out there called "Crimes Against Logic" and I think that one chapter is relevant here. It debunks the idea that people have a right to their opinion. Basically it suggests that although you might have a right to a vote in a democratic society you don't have a right to your own opinion. I think he sees " free speech to be distinct from" right to your own opinion." He suggests that opinions have built in obligations. Opinions according to the author must have something to back it up. With this reasoning or whatever, your opinion is then validated. Without reasoning or documentation your opinion is meaningless. My paraphrasing is poor but I thought I would mention this good book. I won't back up the "good" due to time constraints so let's just say it's a book.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: MD1032
Date: 2006-03-19 22:26
Sabine Meyer made probably my favorite recording of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto. The woman can simply tongue like no other human I've ever heard.
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2006-03-19 22:33
Michel Portal put out the most distasteful recording of the Brahms sonatas I have ever come across.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-19 22:39
Holy cats! I doubt I'll read the book.
Bob Draznik
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-03-20 00:21
Sabine Meyer is a fantastic artist...we all know reeds behave erratically at times especially with changes in weather etc. ...her recording with Abbaddo of the Mozart Concerto is the finest on bassett clarinet....it certainly beats out Tony Pay and a number of others!!!
David Dow
Post Edited (2006-03-20 00:21)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-03-20 14:36
John, perhaps you didn't paraphrase Whyte's book accurately. A quick review on Google prompts me to consider reading it. I don't know that the author's reported comments on opions has merit, however. Personally, I am of the opinion that everyone has a right to his opinion(s) . It's up to "us" to determine whether those opinions have merit and that seems to be what Whyte attempts to help us with.
Bob Draznik
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-20 05:47
"Basically it suggests that although you might have a right to a vote in a democratic society you don't have a right to your own opinion. I think he sees " free speech to be distinct from" right to your own opinion." He suggests that opinions have built in obligations. Opinions according to the author must have something to back it up. With this reasoning or whatever, your opinion is then validated. Without reasoning or documentation your opinion is meaningless. My paraphrasing is poor but I thought I would mention this good book. I won't back up the "good" due to time constraints so let's just say it's a book."
So what do you back it up with? Opinions from other people? -__-;
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Author: William
Date: 2007-02-20 14:16
And remember that the legendary NY Yankee's "Sultun of Swat" and home run king (not on steroids) Babe Ruth, held the world record for most............strike outs.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-02-20 14:39
Listening to live performances and old, live recordings can help students understand that perfection, though worth striving for, is too much to expect in real life. I've heard some local and family anecdotes about kids quitting their instruments for failure to measure up. That's sad. I think if I had a child studying an instrument right now, I'd be sure to stock up on some recordings with obvious technical errors in them (I'm talking about clearcut mistakes, such as squeaks and intonation whoopsies, more than arguable choices of interpretation), just to let the kid know that even the best players sometimes goof up (and not always through carelessness--something to talk about) and that a mistake can be a learning experience instead of the end of the world.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-02-21 12:38
Artistry is playing it with a squeak and still being brilliant.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-02-22 10:17
When this was first posted I must admit to being a bit embarrassed at how this was interpreted.
Here are the less favourable responses:
"I guess it's a case of grasping at straws for things to post about. I just don't get the point of concentrating on such things."
Bob Draznik
I suppose I am grasping at straws...It just gets boring talking about the latest ligature etc. If a performance is put up for sale we should be able to comment critically or favourable on it. If we can't we are reduced to simply praising in a lukewarm manner every performance.
The other point I would make is that the players I listed are all players I admire. My comments on Sabine Meyers jazz Clarinet do not mean that I think she is a bad player. If I did I would not buy so many of her recordings. I do however think she is a poor jazz player. This might not tell you much about Sabine but it does reveal some of my thoughts on jazz. Namely that the precision and clarity that great Classical players attain can have a detrimental effect when playing jazz. I think this type of thought process might have some value.
Similarly, the relax phrasing that Benny Goodman brings to jazz could be unsuitable for playing Mozart. If you agree/disagree with this statement it might bring some clarity to your thoughts on Mozart performance practice.
“One must remember that these people are performers, and they get paid to play - often frequently. The demands on musicians rival those of professional athletes (who are also entertainers) - without benefit of trainers, and personal staff to keep the gear in top form.
Frankly, this line of reasoning stinks of schadenfreude and envy.
It's the same sort of drivel that generates circulation of the National Enquirer
or Gerry Springer.
Now go practice so we can pick apart your professional performances.”
Synonymous Botch.
Harsh words. But I’m not sure that Mr Botch actually read what I said. I am not listing players that I despise and then picking them apart. However I can see the danger that every narrow minded Clarinet player could start venting their rage, jealousy etc…and for that reason I did not bother any further responses.
Chris
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-02-22 11:39
Zutty Singleton dropped his drum stick in the middle of Louis' brilliant solo on Squeeze Me!!!
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-26 15:03
1. I disagree with David Dow about Sabine Meyer's Mozart Concerto recording with Claudio Abbado and Berlin Phil. I thought her tempo in the first movement was out of control and the rhythms were sloppy. I guess the 2nd and 3rd movements were a little better. I much preferred her performances of the Debussy Rhapsodie and a piece by Takemitsu on the same recording. David Shifrin has a much better recording of the Mozart Concerto on an extended range clarinet.
2. Anyone heard Richard Stoltzman's Worldbeat Bach? It's like karaoke clarinet. A bunch of Bach favorites are played with different styles of beat while the clarinet plays the melody. Egregious!
3. I once saw Yo-Yo Ma fall off his chair during a performance of Beethoven's Triple Concerto. I think the other artists were Itzhak Perlman and Emmanuel Ax. The man bows vigorously! Good performance, though, if I recall.
Lori
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2007-02-27 19:31
Yes, I remember watching that performance of Yo-Yo Ma falling out of his chair. As I recall he was getting so into the music that he was sort of half standing and the chair fell off of the riser he, Perlman, and Ax were on. He continued playing standing up. It was still a remarkable performance. The principal violinist stopped and picked up his chair after a few seconds and they resumed. It was the grand opening concert at the new hall in Philadelphia if I recall correctly.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-02-28 15:25
Sabine Meyer has two very different Mozart concertos. The 1999 recording with the Berlin Philharmonic is incredible. The other one I have is not nearly as good... In my opinion. not sure of the date of that recording.
But what can I say, Both recording are still brilliant.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-03-04 01:20
In regards to my earlier tangential post about opinions kev182 's post is a good example. On reflection I guess he has the right to this opinion.....one recording is incredible and the other not so much. Where does that leave us? Kevin no doubt knows something about what he speaks but he doesn't indicate why he likes it. Without this framing of the opinion I feel it lacks "teeth". Perhaps there are some things that can't be put into words but I doubt it here. Furthermore maybe it isn't necessary to "frame" every opinion we have. It's like unsolicited reasoning. We might not want that information all the time. So I in fact retract or revise my initial post. I think everyone has a right to his or her opinion but if you want to sway people in your direction of thought then including reasoning or framework might help. ps This is only my opinion about opinions.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-03-04 15:08
<The other one I have is not nearly as good... >
You mean the one with the Dresden orchestra?
-jane
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