 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-11 21:51
I need some good advice, so please plough through this post despite its length.
I have been playing clarinet (a Ridenour Arioso) only since July of this year. but I have played the piano for fifty years.
My clarinet tones begin to sound "strangled" at B6. I can often play B through altissimo G in tune with my Korg tuner, but I continue to sound just awful in those higher notes in spite of the heavy reading I've done in this board's forum postings about embouchure, breath control, intonation, voicing, etc. I have also had a one hour lesson from an Instructor at Oakland University on how to produce a better sound.
I practice long tones from ppp to forte, playing 12ths, and I try very hard to keep my throat open and my tongue high. I blow from deep in my abdomen, and I have had my clarinet play tested by the University guy. The horn performs very well; any tone production problems come from me, not the horn.
It's been one week since I had my lesson at the University. I won't be able to see the instructor again until the 3rd week in January. I still sound lousy. So lousy, in fact, that I am becoming disheartened.
Here's my question: should all my study and practice produce a sudden sudden burst of understanding as soon as I "get it," or must the better tone result from long hours trying to "get it right?"
Thanks for your patience. -- Old Dave, Still Trying After All These Years
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 22:01
Ok, this sucks, but you sound better from just playing alot. So, you can totally understand the concept and try it a zillion times before it works for you. My suggestion is to keep trying everything you've seen on this list and don't abandon anything until you are CERTAIN that it simply does NOT work for you. Trying everything will produce a massive amount of practice which will, in turn, improve your tone by default.
As for the altissimo, you have to allow the notes to speak(in other, don't strain to play them) and you may need to poke around with different fingerings that may work better for you but are not necessarily the "standard" fingerings. I would suggest using "hot" air the higher you get on your instrument. Think of it this way: if you hold your hand in front of you and form a small aperture and blow the air comes out fast and cold. If you do the same test but open your mouth and almost yawn then the air is slower and hotter. Sometimes that hotter air allows your throat to open and produces much more relaxed altissimo pitches. At this point, you'll never know til you try.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-12-11 22:20
(Edit: I assume when you say B6 you mean B5. Clarion B, thumb and one finger. B6 is an octave higher, where most of us never go!)
You are probably trying too hard. And you are probably trying to make progress too fast. The UK music exam system sets eight graded examinations, of which the last is conservatory entrance level, and it is only for the last that G6 is a required part of the range.
Take it one note at a time. Make sure you are happy (within reason) with each note before you start work on the next. There's absolutely no point practicing G6 if you aren't happy with B5.
Often these notes come more easily if treated gently than if hit too hard. They are easier to approach slurred than tongued. I've been playing about ten times longer than you (so not so very long....) and I am not confident about hitting a tongued C6 cleanly, every time, without fail.
Finally, don't practice obsessively. Try to end your practice with a success. If it's going well, and you've produced several beautiful D6s or whatever, turn your attention to something else. Don't keep on banging away at the D6 to make quite sure you've really learnt it - if you do you'll get tired and unlearn it again.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2005-12-11 22:27)
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Author: christian_comeau
Date: 2005-12-11 22:34
Are you sure you didn't mean B5 (just over the staff)?
Because if you really meant B6(way up the staff), I propose that you forget it for at least a year!
I don't mean that you shouldn't try to explore new things, but you haven't done a year yet!
Let the time to your mouth to familiarize with the good embouchure position.
If still, you are learning (incredibly) fast, they are a lot of posts on high notes in this great forum, I'm sure you'll find out something that helps you...
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Author: bookron ★2017
Date: 2005-12-11 22:45
I started playing clarinet again after a 35 year layoff, and I ran into difficulties at that spot as well, even though it had not seemed a problem at all when I had played before. The advice to take one note at a time seems accurate to me. I would find that it took 2-4 weeks to add each note, but within a few months, I was where I wanted to be. If you try to attack them all at once, you'll be changing all sorts of things and may end up jeopardizing what you have already accomplished. Good luck
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-12-11 22:48
which mouthpiece are you using, and what brand and strength of reed?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-12-11 22:52
Wonderful phrase - "strangled altissimo."
I find it impossible to play altissimo without first "hearing" inside my head what the tone is. To reinforce this, I play two octaves below (da - da - DAH) to more accurate "hit" my altissimo note, sort of like running up to a high jump. If I have a measure of music set in the altissimo, I first play it in clarion (or below) to get to "know" it. Then I set it into the altissimo range.
I've read alot, too. No matter what they say, the clarinet is three times harder to play in altissimo than in clarion or chal. Each overblown range is harder to humor than the one below it.
Bill.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 23:17
Bill,
My only comment regarding the difficulty altissimo would have to be "It's only as hard as you make it for yourself."
I don't approach the altissimo from the perspective of "it's really hard". That just creates too much undue stress.
I will agree with your work in octaves. That's a nice way to work through hearing the notes.
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:04
Yes. I did mean the B just above the staff. Thanks for your post, -- Old Dave
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:11
Bass9396:
Hot air sounds like a good thing for me to try. I am a former expert in hot air!
Seriously, though, my University teacher tells me that the sides of my tongue should touch the sides of my molars at all times. In other words, use cold air ALL the time.
I will try your suggestion tomorrow, because the cold air method ain't cutting it for me. -- Old Dave
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:16
Christian:
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure that, in the long run, I will catch on. The problem is that "In the long run we are all dead." This has extra meaning to me because I'm already 68. But I will heed your good advice to make haste slowly. -- Old Dave
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-12 01:20
Dave,
I've recently changed mpc, reed, embochure, support, ...
AND, I'm having the altissimo problems you are experiencing. My teacher gave me a plate full of things to try. I seriously work on exercises involving the altissimo ---but quit when it gets frustrating.
And go off and play something fun.
PS:
Its slowly coming back, but it is not reliable. Fortunately I don't have any performances for a couple of weeks.
Bob Phillips
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:32
Pewd:
I have purchased a number of mouthpieces trying to find the magic pill which will make me sound like Benny Goodman. In addition to the Arioso mouthpiece which came with my horn, I have tried Vandorens with different facings. I have the M13, the B45 Dot, and the 5JB. I've tested different reeds and strengths to "fit" those mouthpieces. So I've tried Blue Box Vandorens from 1 1/2 to 3 1/2, and LaVoz from soft to medium hard. I bought some Mitchel Lurie #3s also. I have some #3 Gonzolez on order along with a Hite student mouthpiece, too.
The one I like best (so far!) is the Fobes Debut, with a Vandoren 2 1/2.
In retrospect I think trying all these mouthpiece/reed choices all at once was a stupid thing to do: there are just too many variables for me to handle. -- Old Dave, Wiser But Sadder
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:37
Bill:
Getting to know how the tune sounds music before you play it is a very good idea. And your idea of hearing the note before you hit it is also a good idea which I am trying to practice. -- Old Dave
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-12 01:37
I think we're all experts in hot air at some point or another ;o)
Tongue position, for me, is maybe 99 on a list of the top 100 things to do while playing. Most people play Soprano with a high tongue position......I don't and I can still play up into the stratosphere and sound good over the entire horn, so you don't have to live and die by tongue position...do what feels right for you. Some experimentation may be warranted in this tongue "area".
Don't overcomplicate your embouchure...it's already complex enough. In fact, you may want to try dropping the flat chin so you can manipulate the reed with your bottom lip. This technique is much more useful on Bass, but it may help you on Soprano. As long as the corners are firm when you maintain your embouchure you should be fine. It can't hurt to give it a shot.
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 01:48
Bass9396:
Yeah, Tony Pay referenced a scientific study of tongue positions in this forum which concluded (on the bases of Xray or flouoroscope images) that tongue position is more of a clarinet myth than hard truth. Thanks for your post. I will try a less-than-perfect embouchure and see what happens. -- Old Dave, Who is Ready to Throw Caution to the Wind!
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Author: clarispark
Date: 2005-12-12 02:06
Relaxation is key too. Don't get too worked up about it yet--I've been playing clarinet for eight years and am still working on fixing my strangled altissimo range.
"I look at my clarinet sometimes and I think, I wonder what's going to come out of there tonight? You never know." --Acker Bilk
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-12-12 02:07
put a vandoren #3 on the fobes and quit messing with your setup - stick with that for a year or so
then forget the altissimo for now - you've been playing for what, 6 months?
stay down lower, concentrate on long tones with a tuner. add a note to your range each week. dont change reeds/ligatures/mouthpieces until you're much more experienced
there is only one magic pill - its called practice. dedicated, sustained practice over a number of years. forget all the mouthpieces - stick with one for at least a year.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-12-12 14:12
Davedmg,
Voicing is perhaps the most difficult aspect of clarinet mastery. Long after rhythm, alternate fingerings, and breath support are mastered, tone quality, especially the alitssimo, remains unconquered.
Two comments:
David Peacham suggested progressing one note at a time in your acquisition of the altissimo notes. I prefer a different approach. I think the fingerings are much easier to learn than the quality of the note. Therefore i consider it more important to learn fingerings of the altissimo, so you can top off your scales, and play more music. The tone won't be pleasing, but at least you'll be building muscle memory of those notes. A good upper limit is g.
Also some altissimo notes come out crystal clear and easily while others are more reluctant. So why waste time on high C when the notes beyond them are much easier to get out.
Good luck,
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 17:08)
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 14:30
Ron Jr.:
I will take your advice regarding finding the sweet spot: I had not tried that yet. And your comment about whistling intrigues me, because I have been a whistler since I was a very young boy. Thanks for your advice. -- Old Dave, Whistler in the Wind
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-12-12 17:41
These all are very interesting posts which I'll pay close attention to. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is something that Abe Galper ALWAYS insisted on: playing the low notes very well with good tone and good support. He taught that all the high notes are only based on the foundation of these low notes. You'll see these brief notations above many of the exercises in his Method books.
With one of my students who was having the dickens of a time with the clarion register, not to mention the altissimo, I had to demonstrate to him that he was making way too much work out of it. After warning him of what I'd do, I asked him to play one of the low notes and then I reached over and pressed the octave key - the corresponding note came sailing out with no embouchure change at all. But when he tried to get that upper note he couldn't do it - the word "strangled" was the same word we used to decribe his efforts. When working with the grade 7s and 8s I noticed the same thing, they worked too hard.
Now maybe the other variables mentioned above have a part to play in the problem, that'll be for you and your teacher to discover, but perhaps you don't want to overlook the matter of trying not to care when approaching the higher notes. After all they're just squeaks that are in tune, and we all do that pretty easily, don't we?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-12-12 18:34
The exercise Brenda describes is, of course, easily attempted without external help.
Play a low A, mezzoforte or forte. Get the best sound you can. It must be clear and steady. If it is fuzzy, the reed is too hard. If the pitch wobbles, the reed is too soft.
When you are happy with the low A, open the register key. The sound should break upwards to clarion E with virtually no input from you at all. Practice this until you are happy with the clarion E.
(You'll find that the downward slur from E to A is not so simple - the E will tend to persist when you shut the register key. Don't worry about this.)
Now for the altissimo. Play the clarion E. When you are happy with the sound, lift your left first finger. You should get an altissimo C#. You probably won't get it with no input at all, you'll need to increase lip pressure and/or airstream a wee bit. But the point is, it should not be a huge effort. If the E is good, the C# should come sailing out with very little extra effort.
Don't concentrate too much. Don't worry about your diaphragm, your support, your tongue. Don't even worry too much about intonation. Just think about the purity of sound and the pitch you are going for. And keep the air moving steadily. Don't huff and puff, don't tense up.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tims
Date: 2005-12-12 20:50
I have long encouraged my students to begin working in the altissimo registers as soon as possible. I believe learning to play in the high register with ease and confidence makes playing, in general, a much easier task. The altissimo register is much more restricive and unforgiving and this forces the student to develop a strong and correct embouchure early.
Be careful not to assume that the altissimo register requires a substantially different embouchure than the rest of the range. Basically what works for the most difficult of notes, works well for the rest. Don't assume that because you get a relatively good sound in a particular register that you are using an optimal embouchure for that register. If you find you are changing your embouchure significantly for different notes, assume you are doing something wrong. In this respect I am probably at odds with the post regarding Abe Galper who suggests that you build a foundation on the low register. Unfortunately the low register is very forgiving of weak embouchures and bad habits can be encouraged to persist. But don't equate the unforgiving nature of the altissimo register with difficulty. Playing in the altissimo register should not present undue effort.
I have found that playing with just the mouthpiece (or mouthpiece and barrel) tends to be useful only when teaching initial tone production to beginners when it is important to eleminate the distractions of holding and fingering the instrument. The ability to deal with the resistance to the air column presented by the whole horn is essential to understanding tone production in the upper registers. But the idea of finding a "Sweat Spot" (Ron Jr.) is not a bad idea, I would just encourage you to use the whole horn. The main thing is to not be afraid to making significant changes to the position of your embouchure, while at the same time understand that even the tiniest changes can be significant.
You have said you have practiced playing pianissimo in the altissimo registers. This is important, but you should try to follow these rules:
1) Learn to start a note at ppp, not simply sustain a ppp. Do this by developing "embouchure memory." Start by playing an altissimo note at ppp. Then while sustaining it, concentrate on your embouchure, in particular the position and pressure of the lip and the pressure of your air column. Stop and then place your horn on your lap for a count of 10, then return the horn to playing position and attempt to preset your embouchure and breath support to what you remmember. You should then attempt to play that note again at a ppp without any noticeable attack. Do this until it becomes effortless.
2) Work on controlled decrescendos where a listener will have difficulty determining when you go from ppp to silence.
Be aware of pitch. If you are having to work hard to bring the pitch up or down using the standard fingerings, your embouchure is probably off. If your pitches tend high, try a softer reed and/or take in a little more mouthpiece (lip pressure lower on the reed). If your pitch tend low, move your lip pressure higher on the reed. A harder reed may be in order, but try moving the embouchure first. Do not assume a harder reed solves problems in the altissimo register.
Do not attempt to change too many variables a once. You probably have a decent mouthpiece, so don't change mouthpieces. Concentrate on reed strength alone, not brand (assuming you are using a quality major brand) but make sure the reed is properly balanced. Don't over work your reeds, but if you are not comfortable adjusting reeds, simply toss any reeds that are difficult to play or produces poor tone quality.
I've often found that most student's tone problems in the altissimo registers are due to a too relaxed embouchure. This is not the same a too little pressure. Likewise a firm embouchure is not the same as a tight embouchure (high reed pressure). Think of this as similar to applying pressure with a spring and with a screw. It is possible to apply the same pressure with both, but the spring will "give" and something held down with a spring can easily be dislodged. The screw, on the other hand, does not easily "give" and will hold it pressure. Your jaw should act more like a screw than a spring.
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-12-12 21:51
Brenda, David Peacham, and Tims:
Thank you very much for your kind help. It is very gratifying to discover that nice, kindly, and generous people can still be found today; especially on the Internet, which is surely the world's best hope for Tomorrow.
The value of this forum is priceless. I have learned more about clarinet playing in a few months from its ongoing posts and archives than I have in the last 50+ years. And IT'S ALL FREE!
I will never be able to repay all the Forum members who have helped me. But many of its novice players may also find this site to be of enormous value in learning how to practice:
http://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html
This incredible opus (by Chuan C. Chang) was written for serious piano students, but its sections on how to practice difficult music are worthwhile for any musician. It, too, is FREE! -- Old Dave Still Trying After All These Years, and Making Some Progress, Thanks to the Internet.
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