 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 01:21
OK, so how important is a high tongue position? Does everyone need to have it or can some people be fine with a low tongue position?
I have a very small mouth, small/medium teeth, and HUGE tonsils (my dentist said that if my tonsils were football players then they'd definitely be in the NFL, lol). I noticed that I keep a high tongue position when I tongue (I can feel the middle of my tongue hitting the middle of my top teeth). When I slur, I notice that my tongue drops and it's really hard for me to get a high tongue position. Is this because of my big tonsils? How can I work on this? Is the tongue supposed to be high when slurring?
Any comments will be very much appreciated! Thank you!
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-06-04 02:18
stop the violence!
[I'm pretty sure she meant constructive comments, not non-sequiturs. Mark C. ]
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 02:38
Omar, I really need help not silly comments! lol!
So, I just practiced and it is possible for me to put my tongue high for everything, but I think I may be tensing some of my muscles. Any advice?
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-04 02:39
Carrie,
Tongue should be at the same position no matter you play articulation or slurr.
You can work on playing long tone and observe where your tongue are located. My teacher used to tell me to say "She" or "Sea" and play clarinet with the tongue position of these words.
Hope this helps. Good Luck!
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 02:56
thanks! I'll try that tomorrow, I'm giving my mouth a rest. I've been experimenting w/ double lip embouchure too.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-04 03:00
You're welcome. As you are trying double lip, you might easily get soar lip on upper lip. However, from my experience with double lip embouchure, it helps not biting into the mouthpiece.
Good Luck!!
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 03:04
Thanks, I only do double lip for about 2 minutes at a time and then I play normally for about 5 minutes and I go back and forth. My mouth doesn't hurt from the double lip, my neck muscle hurts slightly from improperly trying to acheive a high tongue position-not a good thing!
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-04 03:10
I think you are doing fine with your playing. A clarinetist said to me, "Keep practicing." This is the best thing we can do.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-04 12:59
One of my teachers was very into this. The high tongue position is used to speed to the air and aid in projection. There is a possibility of excessive tension in the throat. The solution is to think of eeee with the tongue for height, and ooooo with the throat (quote from Daniel Bonade) to avoid constricting. You mentioned double lip, and I discovered that for me it is much easier to play this way with double lip.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-06-04 14:19
Another way of saying it: the arch of your tongue should be similar to imitating a cats hiss. The objective is to focus and accelorate the air stream toward the reed. Good luck.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-06-04 20:00
"Clarinetgirl06" lol-- (my colleague/friend)
If you read the responses to my post about voicing inconsistency (from a few days ago), you will see that many people suggest to just relax and not think about it too much; just don't try to open your throat by saying "ahh". My private teacher tells me to 'focus forward and up in the head'. Sometimes she'll say 'get it out of your throat and up in your nasal cavity'. If you think about a part of your body too much, it can and usually DOES tense up. Often your tongue is in the 'high' position while you are relaxed and not playing. From this position simply open your mouth and set your embouchure around the mouthpiece. This becomes more of an "ewh" syllable rather than "eeh" which can lead to tension and a pinched sound.
Hope this helped! Good luck. See you next week at WOF. !!!
-Tyler
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-04 20:17
Tyler wrote:
>
> If you read the responses to my post about voicing
> inconsistency (from a few days ago), you will see that many
> people suggest to just relax and not think about it too much;
> just don't try to open your throat by saying "ahh". My private
> teacher tells me to 'focus forward and up in the head'.
> Sometimes she'll say 'get it out of your throat and up in your
> nasal cavity'.
> -Tyler
Actually, if the problem is throat tension, learning how to relax the throat through "aahhh" or yawning is a good technique. I studied as a vocalist for some time and everytime my voice became pinched, my teacher had me "practice yawn". Stopping to "yawn" every once in a while is a good way to remind yourself what a relaxed throat feels like. This works just as well for clarinetists with throat tension or voicing problems. Attempting to physically form certain vowels, as opposed to just "thinking" about saying a vowel, can cause all kinds of undo tension in the throat and tongue by overcomensating.
As far as what vowel to or not to think: Personally, I prefer to think "aaahhh" as opposed to "ooo", but everyones anatomy is different. Try both ways, ...record yourself and play for your teacher. Whether your anatomy creates the best sound from thinking "ooo" or "ahhh" should be apparent to the listener. I have found however, that thinking "eee" usually doesn't work for anyone.
I do agree with Tyler's suggestion about thinking "up and out"...the throat is a pipe and the tongue is a trap door which only stops the vibration of the reed...and there should be no funny business with the throat or tongue in dictating tone color.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 20:20
Thanks everyone!
OK, so I started this high tongue position when I was practicing this morning. I didn't do intense practicing in a technical way, I just played through some Disney songs and concentrated on a high tongue position (which was in a way intense). I noticed that this position will sometimes make me bend my pitch down (I already know how to bend it by the way) and I'm starting to squeak a little more. Will this get better? Am I subconciously sacrificing another aspect to get this high tongue position and it's making me do weird things? I noticed that the tension went away this morning, which is good!
Also, I'd be fine with the tongue position most of the time, but then it'd come back down, so I'd stop and get everything in place and start again. Rosewood, I tried saying "she" and "sea" and it seemed to work. William, I'll try the cat hissing too and "sea" what works better. Man I'm so punny! lol.
crnichols- I'm trying double lip just to build up my lip muscles (especially corners) I don't think that I will seriously be using double lip.
Tyler-I'll try the relaxing thing and think about the illustrations you said. My teacher complains to me around All-State time "Carrie, you know your music and you've got it great. JUST RELAX! You seem like all this tense energy is just going to explode. You're so tense that I can feel it." So relaxing is probably a great thing for me to do and it'll probably help me live longer, lol.
Sue- Thanks for the reply. I'll try lots of shapes/vowels and see what works the best. I noticed that the tension was well this is the only way I can think of describing it "where someone would have a hanging chicken chin/neck thing" close to the neck, but not the neck or jaw or chin. I don't know if I'm making sense.
OK! That's all I have to say for now! I'm going to try this in a few minutes (I got to practice before the weather gets bad and the tornados come!)
Post Edited (2005-06-04 20:24)
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-04 21:20
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
>
> Sue- Thanks for the reply. I'll try lots of shapes/vowels and
> see what works the best. I noticed that the tension was well
> this is the only way I can think of describing it "where
> someone would have a hanging chicken chin/neck thing" close to
> the neck, but not the neck or jaw or chin. I don't know if I'm
> making sense.
>
Carrie,
I understand the area you are talking about...and I wonder if this is just feeling tense because you are "playing around" with positioning your tongue. Try this experiment...without clarinet. First, relax everything above the neck - your jaw position, tongue...etc. - just as you would if you were just sitting there watching TV. Go to a mirror, take your left hand and feel how your entire neck feels. Notice how it looks. Then, form double lip embouchure...repeat the above step. Now, with the double lip embouchure in place, move your tongue to how you were creating voicing...see how manipulating the tongue too much creates tension in that "chicken neck" area. In fact, I bet you can see that area bulge out a bit or a lot. Regardless of internal anatomy, there should not be much of a visible clue in the "chicken neck" section to tongue position. Another clue that you are creating too much tension by overcomensating your tongue position is that this "chicken neck" area will move during articulation. There should be little to no visible movement during articulation if your tongue is in a correct position.
To keep relaxed, make sure your shoulders are down...and don't raise up when you breath or play. Just sit in front of the mirror and sit as if you would when playing. Take the same breath as if you would before playing...watch for signs of tension (Tension in the shoulders leads to tension in the neck, tongue and embouchure)
Now, get your clarinet and a play open G as you would normally (before working on voicing) - keeping your left hand available to feel your neck. Notice if you see this "chicken neck" area dropping as soon as you begin playing. If it does, this could be caused by not supporting the air properly and using the throat and tongue to direct the air. If there is not a change in this area...you probably had your tongue position just fine. You can practice the voicing technique's/syllables offered by people on the board. If you notice this "chicken neck" area bulging or moving during a specific technique...that one is not working for you...and when you start working on articulation you will notice this much more!
I talk a lot about anatomy dictating what works for the individual, but in this area of tension - it is counter productive to all individuals. Try tensing the muscles of your upper arm...tight as you can...now try to bend and straighten your arm while doing this. It is quite difficult...and you can not move your arm fast at all. In fact, this tension affects your shoulder and back muscles ability to move effortlessly as well. When you release tension in your arm...you are able to move the muscles in your arm much more effectively.
This same idea can be translated to tension in your neck, embouchure or tongue. Tension in one will create tension in the other two...and will adversly affect all three.
Edited to add: I just had a thought...in the past, was your tongue too far back in your throat? (Which can happen with a recessed jaw and single lip embouchure) Your previous comments about "collapsed jaw" made me experiment on myself...and I found that doing single lip with the jaw back made my tongue fall back into my throat. If you have just started double lip...it might automatically bring your jaw and tongue naturally into a proper position. Thus, trying to keep the tongue in a "high" position with using double lip embouchure may be counterproductive. Have you played double lip in a lesson yet? If not, perhaps just switching to double lip has resolved most of your voicing issues....
Again, just a thought.
Post Edited (2005-06-04 21:34)
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-04 21:53
I just practiced and I didn't notice ANY tension that time.
In times past, my tongue was simply low. Like pouring water into a bowl, the water is just sitting on the bottom-it wasn't exerting any pressure back, it was just low.
Now, when I try the high tongue position, I almost feel like I could gag myself sometimes (the huge tonsil issue and I think I may be putting too much pressure back or something). When I'm tonguing in this position I'm fine, it's just when I'm slurring does it want to go really far back and up. I think I'm afraid to touch the reed or something when slurring.
With high tongue I think it is improving my staccato a lot (don't know if it's because of the tongue position or if I'm subconsiously doing something else). But now it seems harder to get the altissimo out, especially when slurring. Tonguing altissimo isn't too bad.
I haven't played double lip in a lesson and am not pursuing it full on. I am merely experimenting with it a few minutes every practice sesson because I think my lip muscles are rather weak and so I'm trying to strengthen them. And I also realized that I don't think that I have a biting problem-I'm just pushing my jaw forward to create the "flat and pointed" look, which in turn makes my jaw go into my lip some because my embouchure used to be loosy goosy.
Thanks for the help!
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Author: clarisax
Date: 2005-06-05 04:08
over the past couple of years i have spent time with a few different teachers who taught me different techniques and have had their own different thoughts on pretty much every aspect of clarinet playing. while all of them told me different things to "think about" while i was playing, i learned on my own what really worked. the best and correct tongue position for ME was the high tongue position...such as the "eh" or "hissing cat." it allows me to slur over large intervals and makes hitting the high notes much, much easier.
before i used this tongue position i had been puffing out my cheeks in order to play certain notes. fixing my tongue position totally cleared up the puffing because i no longer was forced to distort my embouchure to make the notes speak. it also has cleared up problems with staccato notes sounding clean. some say the high tongue position makes the air speed faster, but i think it probably just has more to do with the direction the air is actually going. when i had my tongue flat the air had no direction and was just kind of being forced through the mouthpiece. with a higher tongue position i feel as though the air is actually traveling in a steady stream instead of just kind of sitting there in my mouth.
before i changed my tongue position i was always told that my neck was strained and i had too much tension while playing. if you are tense in your throat and neck while you are playing you are probably also very tense in your hands. this was a problem i had until i chose to do something about it. unless you constantly think about loosening your grip on the clarinet you will always stay tense. it takes a long time but eventually you get used to the softer grip. if you do have a death grip on your clarinet like i did this would add to the tension everywhere else.
i would advise that you do what allows you to play every note clearly and accurately without any distortions of your embouchure. i was changing mine to hit some notes before i realized that my tongue position was wrong. everything should stay constant from note to note and if you are changing something, whether it is puffing out your cheeks or bighting your mouthpiece or whatever else you could be doing, odds are it is because your tongue position isnt allowing the air to flow properly through your mouthpiece. good luck and dont give up!!!
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2005-06-05 14:28
The "high and forward" tongue position is generally favored. Think "eee" or "hee", kind of like a cat hissing. This is because we want a fast flow of air and according to the Venturi effect (a physics law), as the area decreases, the speed must increase. Thus, a low tongue position would have leave a larger area inside the mouth and not allow the fastest air speed.
(This is taken from my own knowledge from physics, as well as Larry Guy's "Embouchure Building for Clarinetists" and straight from the mouth of Tom Martin, the associate principal and Eb clarinet of the BSO and the principal of the Boston Pops.)
Larry Guy also stresses in his book that while the internal embouchure should be making the "eee" shape with the oral cavity, the external embouchure should be making a small shaped "ooo" with the lips and corners drawn in to the center. Together they form the German umlaut, which is said to be the best and most favored position for the embouchure. I think you can get an easy idea of that shape just by shaping your lips and everything as you would when you whistle. If you don't think you can whistle, just remember that you play clarinet, "everyone can whistle!"
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-06-05 15:45
Though you may find experimenting with different tongue positions helpful, it's as well not to dig yourself a hole by worrying too much about what you 'should' be doing. Teachers are often just trying to get you into the position where you do the thing that works, naturally. I think I can safely say that good players aren't thinking overmuch about what their tongue does as they play.
Although I don't quite agree with all of it, the following article posted to the Klarinet list might give you pause for thought in this regard:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/05/000454.txt
Your tongue is wonderful at learning to do the things that will allow you to imitate what you hear, as the example of *speech* shows. (See also:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/10/000046.txt
....which I found surprising.)
IMHO, though it can be useful to begin with to experiment at the proximal end is (thinking about what your tongue does), you're better off putting your attention at the distal end (listening very carefully to the result).
Evidence for this is that even when you can get a student to sound better by varying any one of tongue position, embouchure position, mouthpiece or reed, it never 'takes' unless *they* think it sounds better. If they can't hear that it's better, in the next lesson, they just go back to where they were before.
Tony
Post Edited (2005-06-05 15:49)
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-05 19:55
Thanks for the articles Tony.
Bigno16, I I actually do own the Larry Guy book and have read about the umlout (sp?) and have to sing it a lot in my voice lessons. I just never realized that my tongue position was bad when I read this book. Thanks though!
clarisax-I used to have a lot of strain, but I think it's gotten better now. Thanks for your help!
Could my tongue position be affecting my staccato? It's doing something really weird and I can't figure out to fix it. There was kind of something about it in Tony's first article, but I can't figure out how to fix it. I actually made a topic on it called "Working on Staccato". Could anyone help? Am I simply trying to correct too many things at once?
Thanks for all the help!
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-05 21:02
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
Am I simply
> trying to correct too many things at once?
>
I think you answered your own question. In the past week you have asked for advice on fixing your hand position, tongue position and staccato. You've started working on Baermann in new keys...practicing with double lip...etc.
My advice...too many changes at once wont work. You need to figure out what comes first. I say embouchure, tongue position...and make sure your tongue is not too far away from the reed, so that when you begin staccato exercises you wont have to relearn EVERYTHING. IMO, practice gaining strength in your embouchure (which you claimed was a weakness) and experiment with voicing...Once that is settled begin work on staccato and other articulations. If you start articulation training too soon before you set your embouchure and tongue...you'll most likely fall back into old habits - and end up wasting your time.
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