 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-20 14:51
Ralph Morgan tells this story about the Selmer 10G:
Moennig did extensive customization on Gigliotti's Buffets. Selmer Paris made a deal to copy it as the 10G. However, Moennig worked on each instrument individually. Simply copying it by setting up the machinery to duplicate Gigliotti's instrument couldn't produce clarinets that played the same way, or even in tune. There had to be custom work at the end, which Selmer couldn't duplicate, at least at an affordable price.
Morgan knew how to do this sort of artistic finishing, and he found half a dozen artisans who could also do it.
He gave Selmer a new set of measurements for the 10G, which produced a semi-finished instrument. These were sent to Morgan in Elkhart, where he set up a finishing shop exactly like the great ones before WWII. They produced clarinets that were very close to Gigliotti's own.
This operation lasted only a short time. The hand-finished Selmer 10Gs are in the serial number range Z6835 through A1200.
Selmer assigned serial numbers to all kinds of instruments as they were made, and only a few hundred of them were 10G clarinets.
When Selmer shut down Morgan's finishing line, he send the Paris office a new set of measurements that made the instruments play reasonably well, but nothing like the hand-finished ones.
Ken Shaw
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-20 17:08
Ken
According to the many other posts on this board, (including various ones from me seeking information and giving feedback) excellent 10Gs have been said to be produced from the late X series through Y and into Z.
I have a reasonable amount of experience working with and playing 10Gs and here's my take:
The Y series are amazingly consistent, with a rich projecting tone, and a sweetness that will vary according to the barrel and bell. Initially I thought they were brighter than R13s. Not so. They simply have a bigger sound (comparable with the early R13s from the mid 1950s).
I have overhauled 3 Y series in the last 18 months and they have all been excellent players, with consistent intonation. The quality of the keywork and plating puts all most 1970s Buffets to shame. They are all silver plated.
I have a 4th still to do.
I have kept one and it is my main horn. My back up is a 1956 R13 (Academy Model).
I have had one X series, which was a beauty in terms of sweetness of tone, but less even, with sharp throat B,C,D and rather sharper top D,E,F,G. The keywork was OK, but the fitting of the rods was not as snug as the Ys, which were all really good.
I have overhauled an A series recently, and it was excellent. Beautiful tone, very even, though with slightly less snug rods. Not an issue though. Great plating.
I have also overhauled and sold on 3 C series and a D serie 10G. These are a completely different design, with a half crows foot, an adjuster on the lower joint C pad, cut outs on the lower joint side levels. These later models are a completely different design, and IMHO do not sound nearly as good. They do tend to be reasonably even nonetheless. Even the pillars are different.
Sadly I've never bought a Z series, though I was outbid recently by a Frenchman on ebay for one.
The tuning barrels are hugely variable. Look up previous posts regarding the ebonite insert. Generally I prefer the aftermarket versions without inserts that are all grenadilla. I haven't found one original barrel with ebonite inserts that I actually liked.
Walter Grabner plays an 1 serie 10G, which means he can make you a custom barrel to fit the top joint without a step, and has modelled the bore on a top notch aftermarket Selmer 10G barrel. This upgrade is highly recommended.
Hope this helps (though I'm not sure you were asking for feedback!!)
All the best
Nick
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-20 17:27
I have read Gigliotti designed these based on his playing experience on a Buffet 21,000 series.
Bill.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-20 17:40
It is much more like the Buffet 56XXX from the 50s than others I've played from the 1970s, 80s and 90s. So an early R13 as prototype for the 10G makes sense. It would surprise me if it was modelled on a 21XXX bore which would have been very different I suspect.
BTW, I meant to write that Walt Grabner plays an A serie 10G.
Nick
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-20 18:42
I would agree - a 21,000 is nothing like an R-13. But somewhere I read it ... urban clari-myth.
Bill.
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2005-11-20 20:18
For the record mine is a low A series, can't say for sure because its in the shop right now. Nick's description sounds just like mine, and might have to consider a Grabner barrel, as well as the mouthpiece. It does not have the original rubber lined barrel, but an aftermarket selmer one. I can't amgine selling it, such a reliable horn, and such a pretty tone (although it still takes a backseat to the Signatures I have tried). I find the tone a little darker than newer R13's anyway, I have no experience with their 50's or 60's instruments. Anyway I didn't no Ralgh Morgan did the finishing on any of them, I picked mine up about 4 or 5 years ago and never heard a history of the instrument. Very interesting thread thanks for the info,
Ben
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-11-21 01:42
The set of 10g that Mr Gigliotti himself played, atleast while i was his student (I was one of His very last students), was from the E series. He had further customization done my Mike Hammer of philadelphia. Mike Hammer did a lot of work adjusting the chimney heights, and allowed a lot of the pads to seat even better. Gigliotti also had a very unique custom register key, which sort of encircled the thumb hole. These clarinets played extremely well.
Loren Kitt's set of 10g clarinets was also from the E series.
My set of 10gs is from the less renowned N Series, however, with similar customization by Mike Hammer, and further customization that i have taken myself, the horn plays really well, with a great blowing resistance, and excellent intonation.
The barrels from 10g clarinets that have the hard rubber inserts play extremely well, and play better than Mr. Gigliotti's own after market barrels, which i also played on for an extended period of time. 10 g barrels = nice.
Thanks
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-21 02:10
For the record, I have a 10G Z35xx, which I guess would be out of the range of the hand-finished ones here, but it plays very well. I don't really know the history of the horn though and it may have been hand-tuned/finished by a tech, or may not have. However according to the seller who sold it to me through these classifieds, it was owned by a former student of Gigliotti, and was picked out by Mr. G for that student. I saw it as a good buy for a good price, and I was right. A very nice clarinet indeed!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-21 10:17
'I have a Z series which is really good for what they are'....
What do you mean, David, by 'for what they are'?
Nick
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-11-21 11:49
I don't like them. I think they are bad imitations of the R-13 at best. I don't think they sound nearly as good, and aren't as flexible tone wise either.
(of course that's just my opinion, so take it for whatever you think it's worth, or not....)
Post Edited (2005-11-21 11:51)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-30 08:47
Ken you were right. the X and Y series were not finished by Ralph's artisans. The serial range he was responsible for was Z3685-A1200. Apparently the X and Y series was inconsistent, and the ones after Z1200 had fractionally narrower measurements.
I am obviously lucky to have found a handful of Y series that are nice and even.
Nick
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Author: kkab45
Date: 2010-06-25 02:45
i have to tell you that the z series tend to get too resitant after awhile. You also need to be informed that Buffet in the 70's was in bad money shape and that gave selmer a head start. Today i am afraid that Buffet is far above the selmer 10 g series and unless you want to put a lot of money into the selmer 10 g....it might be best to see what is out there with the other brands............the resistance can be a real problem down the road.
also the barrells were not consistant as well.
Karen
kalmen opperman was such an outstanding teacher. may he rest . he was loved by many. We have been blessed to have known him.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-06-25 15:53
Does anyone know what the measurements are supposed to be for the 10G clarinet barrels, both Bb and A barrels? Did he use the same dimensions as moennig, or did he use a different taper?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-06-26 00:47
The 10G was a clone of Gigliotti's Moennig-tweaked R13. Therefore the barrel should have a Moennig taper.
However, according to Guy Chadash, Moennig also increased the depth of the socket at the top of the barrel, leaving a gap between the end of the mouthpiece tenon and the bottom of the socket. Buffet's Moennig barrels have his taper but have standard top sockets and so don't play like the ones Moennig made. Guy says his Buffet barrels take this into account and play more like Moennig's own barrels. Go to http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=289&t=289 and search for
*MOENNIG VS. CHADASH BARRELS.
Keep in mind that this is Guy Chadash touting his own work.
Also, Moennig put a hard rubber lining in Gigliotti's barrels, presumably to keep them from warping given Gigliotti's hours of playing every day.
Finally, Ralph Morgan's 10Gs were hand finished, which involved, among other things, adjusting the barrel taper of each instrument to give the best tuning, tone and response. Thus no two were the same.
When I got barrels from Kal Opperman, I would sit with him while he made tiny adjustments, often 1/10th of a turn with a reamer, until he got it just right for my mouthpiece, my clarinet and my way of playing. No design can do that without the final hand matching.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2010-06-26 03:02
Great thread. Sorry I missed it the first time around.
I played on 10Gs for a long time (as I studied with Mr. G from 77-79). I had a good set having gone to Elkhart to pick them out. I do not have them any longer but sometimes wish I had kept them.
There is no way that a mass market type of horn can be made at a proper competitive price point if one includes hand finishing and skilled labor. Just not possible.
That's exactly why the guys like Rossi, Chadash, and now some of the German guys, are producing instruments that cost more but have customization.
While Moennig was a genius for his time, he did not integrate his work to consider the whole instrument. He fixed each problem individually, and that is why his work in instruments for individual players (Gigliotti, Marcellus, that generation) worked well but does not translate to mass production.
The Buffets that these guys played were customized and souped up versions of the basic model. They had nothing to do with the off the line type of clarinet we have come to expect for $3000-$5000.
My guess is that there will be more and more clarinet players who will want instruments designed for their playing peculiarities. These clarinets will cost more like $10K (still cheap compared to oboes, bassoons and flutes), and allow for an individual player to have something he/she has total confidence in.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2012-11-02 17:15
Resurrecting an old thread..
So would Z48xx be one of the ones tinkered with by Ralph Morgan? Would this horn be worth looking at?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-11-02 18:14
Ralph Morgan said the first Morgan-finished 10G was Z6835. Yours is a bit earlier than that.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2012-11-03 12:54
Can anyone compare the 10G to the Buffet VINTAGE model? I have never tried the VINTAGE.
It would seem that that would be the proper comparison since the 10G was modeled after a pre-R13 Buffet.
My guess is that they may play very similarly and with the advances in machining and acoustics, may offer a better alternative with less need for hand adjustments.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-11-03 19:29
The Buffet Vintage is actually an R13, its just that R13s have changed in subtle respects over the 50+ years of production and the Vintage supposedly mirrors an earlier R13 specification.
My understanding is that the 10G is based on R13 design but probably of the earlier R13 period - so Vintage may be a suitable comparison.
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-11-05 21:04
I must say that while I have heard many times how good the 10G CAN be, the only examples (over the years I'd say I've encountered 4 or 5 pairs in NZ and USA) all sounded ok-ish but had really bad intonation problems (that made the worst R13 look good).
I am sure that there may be some excellent instruments out there but I'd be cautious and certainly never buy one without playing it first regardless of the serial number (you can, of course say this about any brand or model of clarinet, I just mean to emphasize that the 10G is definitely not the exception to this rule)
dn
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Author: bekkalynnb
Date: 2012-11-06 03:36
I have recently acquired a metal clarinet. I played clarinet for about 10 years growing up (and was always sorry I didn't keep playing) and before I got this metal one, I didn't know they existed. It has a beautiful tone, although I think it may be in the key of C, instead of the B flat, which is all I had heard of before. How can I tell? And also, can anybody tell me the approximate value of these clarinets?
Rebecca Boling
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Author: LTS
Date: 2014-02-01 23:16
I have a 10G Serial number N3452. I've had it for awhile. I can't seem to find anything about it. Is this one of the good ones? It needs some repairs and I'm wondering whether it would be worth repairing or whether I should buy a new clarinet. It would be so kind if anyone would help me decide by posting. Thank you!!!
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Author: redrube
Date: 2014-02-02 13:26
Can someone tell me when a Selmer 10G clarinet serial number # F1749 was made? I looked on serial number lists but didn't see any with an "F"
Thanks
Brooklyn Brass & Reed
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-02-02 21:13
I must admit that Mr. Gigliotti's tone is not a reference for me; fine, solid player though he was.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ahartman
Date: 2015-11-30 05:24
I have a Selmer 10G SN A3050. When purchased new in late 1970s, I remember being told that it had been hand finished by Ralph Morgan. However it would appear from this post that any SN after A1200 was either not hand finished or finished by someone else. Any information?
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-11-30 06:55
I played a Selmer 10G in high school (it belongs to the school) and I loved it. The volume I could produce on it was incredible. Not too long ago I asked my former music director about the clarinet and he told me a freshmen is using it for MARCHING BAND. Kind of broke my heart.
Fernando
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Author: Adailton
Date: 2017-12-26 01:47
Good night.
Could you tell me what year of manufacture of the clarinet Selmer 10g serial number F3767 and whether it is part of the hand-made?
I couldn't find this serial number on the list.
Thank you
Good night.
Could you tell me what year of manufacture of the clarinet Selmer 10g serial number F3767 and whether it is part of the hand-made?
I couldn't find this serial number on the list.
Thank you
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-26 02:21
F something is in the mid 90s.
All Selmer clarinets are hand-made to a large extent, especially the tone hole shaping. I doubt Selmer did not shape the tone holes on their pro level clarinets from the 70s and on.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2017-12-26 02:56
Agreed - D series were 1988, possibly ‘87
I know this as was just last night looking at my sales receipt for a D series set picked out at the Factory by Gigliotti in France. He picked out 7 sets that trip.
Wasn’t for me.........so I returned it.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Adailton
Date: 2017-12-26 20:37
Good afternoon. Thanks for the information
Good night.
Could you tell me what year of manufacture of the clarinet Selmer 10g serial number F3767 and whether it is part of the hand-made?
I couldn't find this serial number on the list.
Thank you
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-26 21:49
I knew Hans Moennig pretty well. Not as well as some people, but he did let me study with him around 1977 or so for about a year, then I went into Peabody Institute then the Air Force Band so the lessons became less often. I do not ever remember him lining any barrels with rubber, nor did I ever see any rubber in his repair shop. However, his repair shop was a mess. Nothing was labeled. But he knew where everything was. Yes he spent a great deal of time with Tony and some of his students who usually played on Selmers. Such as David Shifrin.
Also during this time Hans was pretty angry with Buffet for a number of reasons. One was for changing the bores to probably copy the 10G of Tony's horn. Also, it seemed that every barrel that Hans ordered with his name on it was off, so with his heavy German accent he would swear and go to the wood lathe and fix the reverse tapers of the bores with his reamers.
He was a kind man, with a wicked temper. His workmanship was amazing, not just on clarinets but on other instruments such as bassoons. On clarinets he might throw away 5 to 8 pads before finding that perfect pad that sealed correctly. If he were alive today he would be joyful with the quality of some of the new pads that are out there now.
Even with the 1960's Buffet's he did a lot of tuning on the horns. Every horn needed work. Same with the Selmer's and the 10G, as well as the earlier models the 10, and as early the 9 series. When I was there, for tuning he used electrical tape in the tone holes because it lasted, something about the stickiness. I heard he did change this practice later on. He had special tools he made for undercutting tone holes but he often just used thin files. On Buffet's, when working on the 1960's models he used a 67mm barrel on every horn with his Chedeville mouthpiece.
I don't know what he did with Selmers, but I'm sure he had a special barrel for each model. I don't think he used a rubber lining. It just wasn't his style. He was very much old school.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-26 23:04
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Yes he
> spent a great deal of time with Tony and some of his students
> who usually played on Selmers. Such as David Shifrin.
>
He must have relented after I was aware. When The 10G came out around 1972, Moennig was furious and I don't think spoke to Gigliotti or did work for him for quite a while. I'm, actually surprised to read that they ever reconciled or that Moennig ever worked on the Selmers. Moennig regarded Gigliotti's taking his Moennig-worked Buffets to Selmer as what we would today call theft of intellectual property. I guess none of Hans's tweaks were patented, so he didn't have any legal recourse. Gigliotti, during the months of development leading up to the release of the 10G, covered the logos on the Selmer prototypes to hide them primarily from Moennig in case Hans was in the audience and might see them.
> I don't know what he did with Selmers, but I'm sure he had a
> special barrel for each model. I don't think he used a rubber
> lining. It just wasn't his style. He was very much old school.
>
I'm not sure, as I've said, that he ever worked on Selmer 10Gs. You were in the shop in the late '70s, so you may be right. I had by then started going to Mark Jacobi and then Mike Hammer to do my repair and maintenance work *because* my 10Gs were unwelcome in Hans's shop. Gigliotti's purpose, besides the monetary one, was to produce a clarinet with Moennig's improvements right off the production line. If Moennig or anyone else had needed to do extensive work on them, it would have defeated the purpose. So what you've written about Moennig and Selmer 10Gs in 1977 onward surprises me.
But then what Ken wrote in the original post to this thread in 2005 about Morgan's involvement was also surprising to me. So I obviously was a little out of the loop toward the end of the 10Gs manufacturing life.
The 10Gs came with rubber-lined barrels. But I'm pretty sure the first rubber inserts I had added to any of my Buffet barrels were done by Hans. I may be wrong. I do remember that Mark Jacobi lined a couple of barrels for me later and, maybe, Mike Hammer.
Karl
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2017-12-27 01:11
In the 80’s Mark J was taking broken Mouthpieces to use as rubber inserts.
Many knew Hans, but probably I’m the only one who had his Widow sitting on my lap for a car ride after a Concert downtown.
Was on the way to a party after a Settlement School Concert, and the car for 5, there were 6 of us gonna to the Curtis’s home.
So his widow ended up sitting on my lap in the back seat.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-27 03:03
Thanks! Karl! It's making more sense now. I was not aware of any issues with Tony and Hans. But I do know that if Hans told you to leave his shop it was forever. Again, he was kind, but had a temper. I wasn't aware that the 10G had a rubber insert. We are going back 40 plus years. You have a great memory. If there were problems he never spoke to me about them, but I was there 7 or 8 years later, as you can see from the dates I posted.
David that is a GREAT story! I'm sure you are the only one to experience this fun concert! Wow! I guess Hans died not long after that. 1987 or so? I was in California by then. A really fun story. Hans must have been really hunched over by then too. He was in bad shape in the last time I saw him in the early 1980's but he was going strong.
My only fun story with Hans was he smoked a pipe all day long. We were talking about the tobacco one day and he told me to go get a pipe and he would let me try his "Special blend." Well I was a broke student so I showed up the next day with a corn cob pipe and with his accent he said you can't smoke my tobacco with that pipe! But there were some swear words added to it. He was a tad bit mad. It was a quiet day. I didn't dare say anything else to anger him! The next day he came in with a really nice pipe for me. This is why I say he was very kind. I don't smoke now, but still have his gift to remind me of him.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-27 05:36
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> But I do know that if Hans told
> you to leave his shop it was forever. Again, he was kind, but
> had a temper. I wasn't aware that the 10G had a rubber insert.
He never told me himself not to bring a 10G into his shop, but he was, as I've said, furious that Gigliotti used his Moennig-Buffet as a model for the 10G. When I bought my Bb 10G, we selected it in Gigliotti's teaching studio. But it had to be bought through an official Selmer distributor. Moennig wasn't having anything to do with them, but his forever assistant, Casimir (I won't even try to spell his last name), arranged with Selmer to handle the sale - which we completed at Cas's home, since we couldn't do it at the shop.
Maybe his anger cooled over a few years.
I still have the 10Gs I bought back then, the Bb from Cas in 1973 and the A, which had been one of several Gigliotti brought back with him from Paris, from another of his former students in the early '80s. I have experimented with any number of aftermarket barrels and have always come back to the originals - both of which have rubber linings.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-27 07:37
Karl - Yes I remember the name, but never met him. But he was gone when I studied with Hans. I didn't ask questions. I kind of knew better I guess. Through people talking in the Philly area I heard that Casimir and Hans did not talk or talked very little to each other towards the last year. Some sort of disagreement, which you probably are privy to. Maybe it was related to the Selmer situation? Don't know. You probably do. Then Tony got Mark Jacoby (spelling) from Temple U into clarinet repair and he had a great career in Philly. I think he might still be repairing horns. I'm wondering if Tony did this to make Hans mad? hmmm... The plot thickens. I'm learning a lot here.
Did Mark work of Tony's horns? I have no idea. The dates are about right.
Can't wait to hear your response! Mark was pretty cool. Ran a very clean workspace! Was it Broad Street and 14th? Had a nice view of downtown. Totally different from Moennig's! I didn't know Mark very well but I'm sure he remembers me. A perfect location because it was a short train ride from the Baltimore area and NYC, lots of music schools and 1000's of players.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-27 07:43)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-27 18:01
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Karl - Yes I remember the name, but never met him. But he was
> gone when I studied with Hans. I didn't ask questions. I kind
> of knew better I guess. Through people talking in the Philly
> area I heard that Casimir and Hans did not talk or talked very
> little to each other towards the last year. Some sort of
> disagreement, which you probably are privy to.
I don't know how interested in all this other BBoard members are, so we might do better to take further follow-ups off-list.
The only issue I was aware of was that Cas went off for a couple of years to work at the Leblanc factory in Elkhart(?) and Hans resented the disloyalty. Cas died of cancer not too long after, so maybe he was already sick and wasn't as willing to take Hans's verbal abuse (reference Moennig's bad temper).
> Maybe it was
> related to the Selmer situation? Don't know. You probably do.
No, I don't know, either.
> Then Tony got Mark Jacoby (spelling) from Temple U into
> clarinet repair and he had a great career in Philly. I think he
> might still be repairing horns. I'm wondering if Tony did this
> to make Hans mad?
Mark still does repair and customization work here in Philadelphia, as does Mike Hammer, another of Gigliotti's students and one time Moennig apprentice. Both got a lot of Gigliotti's work especially while he was still tinkering with design features he wanted to incorporate into the Selmer 10Gs, which were already in production. Gigliotti by then had learned to do a lot of his own work and didn't rely so much on repairmen to maintain his own clarinets.
> Can't wait to hear your response! Mark was pretty cool. Ran a
> very clean workspace! Was it Broad Street and 14th? Had a nice
> view of downtown.
I remember two shops, one on Sansom Street and the other at 19th and Chestnut. Broad Street *is* 14th Street in Philadelphia, so I'm not sure where that one would have been. He works out of a shop at his home now.
Karl
Post Edited (2017-12-27 20:23)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-29 09:03
Yes Broad is 14th, what was the cross street then? There was Pine, Chestnut, but those were not the streets. Too many years have past. When I was there Chestnut wasn't open to cars. Then across from the Academy of Music there was that cool bar where you could get a beer for 25 cents. Started with an M. Miglinchies??? Too many years ago. I lived on 16th and Pine. Favorite places to eat were in Little Italy.
It's nice to know that Mark is still working.
I actually like some of the other 10 series models. I'm not sure what model Shifrin used when he recorded the Mozart Concerto with the extended lower clarinet which was done by Lenny Gullotta around 1984. Maybe you know. I know it was a 10 series, but I have no idea which model. Man David sounded great. I was able to hear him practice the piece and it was the first time I heard the Concerto played that way. A huge, rich, full sound from that Selmer. I didn't play the horn, but I felt the keys and I always thought that Selmer had the best keys. Mainly the right hand position.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-29 17:46
Clarineteer wrote:
> Bob, the cross streets are Mifflin and Mckean.
So, Mark had a shop there in the late '80s? That's later than the two shop locations I mentioned. By then I had gotten tired of having to park in center-city every time I needed work done and Hammer was more convenient to where I lived at the time in Northeast Philly.
(Sorry, I would have sent this privately but your email address isn't in your profile.)
Karl
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Author: anrutherford
Date: 2018-10-10 05:56
I have a 10G with serial number X0976 and I can't seem to find any information about it. When I try to look up this serial it appears that the X series start in the 1500 range.
I have had this clarinet since I was 13 and remember bits and pieces of a story that I was told about it, I don't know if it is true or not so i am trying to confirm.
My mom purchased this clarinet from my private instructor, at the time he had stated that upon researching this particular instrument that there was some sort of fire and only of few of the clarinets in the specific serial number range I have survived?
Can anyone help me with some facts about the clarinet that I have?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-10-11 23:09
I think you may be reading too much into the 1500 start figure.
I would suggest that the W series ended in 1971 and the X series started that same year. X1500 was probably the number they had reached at start of 1972.
So you clarinet would seem to date from the later part of 1971.
I also have a 10G clarinet somewhere in my collection but can't lay my hands on it at the moment.
(I have collected far too many clarinets I know)
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Author: jhamm
Date: 2018-11-07 23:48
This is a fascinating trail. I was fortunate enough to study with Mr. Gigliotti from 1974 to 1980. In 1976, he picked out a 10G Bb serial number Y9892 and an A serial number Z7399 for me. I remember that Mark Jacobi was involved in the purchase, but the details are unclear. I also have a Gigliotti AG P mouthpiece and his ligature (yes, I drank all the Kool-Aid). I loved the feel and the sound of those instruments, but as a high school and college student, I was pretty naive and unsophisticated.
I did not pursue music as a career, and I basically did not play at all from 1980 to 2010, when I was conned into playing in the pit orchestra for a middle school musical production. Although the instruments were 30 years old, relatively speaking they had hardly been played. I had them fixed by a local shop in Connecticut, where I live, making them playable, but only just.
I have rediscovered the joy of playing, and as my real job winds down, I have been doing much more of it. Wanting to see if he could refurbish my instruments, I actually tracked Mark Jacobi down about 3 years ago at his Philadelphia home and shop on South Carlisle St, but after an initial contact, he never returned my calls.
I am more acutely aware of pitch problems with the horns now than I was in HS and college-whether that is because I am a more mature musician, or because of an inherent problem with these instruments (the post-production work detailed above was enlightening), or is the result of the half-baked refurbishment is not clear to me.
So my questions are:
1) Is it worth trying to refurbish these instruments?
2) Any recommendations about who should do it?
3) Any thoughts about the serial numbers on the instruments?
4) For the most part, they play sharp, except for the throat tones, which are flat-would there be a role for trying a new barrel? Whose?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-11-08 02:56
jhamm wrote:
> So my questions are:
> 1) Is it worth trying to refurbish these instruments?
IMO yes, if you can find a good repair tech who will work on them.
> 2) Any recommendations about who should do it?
If Mark won't return your calls (he'd do a great job), Mike Hammer, also in the Philadelphia area, works on mine and is also excellent. Both were very close to the process while the 10Gs were in development.
> 3) Any thoughts about the serial numbers on the instruments?
My Bb is an X and my A is a C series, so my pair surrounds yours. Obviously, I still like them, since I still play them.
> 4) For the most part, they play sharp, except for the throat
> tones, which are flat-would there be a role for trying a new
> barrel? Whose?
If you're still using the AGP, it isn't a 442 model, is it (the numbers 442 would be engraved next o the bottom right corner of the table)? I haven't tried tons of those clarinets, but neither mine nor any of the others I have tried had the problem you're describing. If you were playing a Vandoren Series 13 mouthpiece, I'd suspect that had something to do with it.
Are the barrels original? The 10G barrels were designed with a bigger taper than the standard "Moennig" taper. Mine are considerably wider at the mouthpiece end and slightly tighter than a Moennig at the exit. If you've substituted after-market barrels, it might not be a good taper for the instruments.
If your AGP mouthpiece actually has "AG P" stamped on it, it's fairly early - the not too much later ones only have the letter "P" stamped. If it was an early AG mouthpiece, there's no telling whether its specs are what they later became.
If you haven't played them much since the "half-baked refurbishment" because of the pitch problems, it may be that the bores are out of spec from not having been played and that just playing them regularly over a period of a couple of weeks will bring the original tuning back. If you decide to have them restored and the problem persists, it is possible for a skilled tech to bring the pitches of the throat notes up a little, especially G,G# and A because there are no 12ths to worry about making too sharp. (There isn't any tape in the throat note tone holes that you've forgotten was put in them 30 years ago, is there?)
The scale is something a really skilled tech would need to evaluate.
Karl
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-11-08 05:48
Jacobi hates Selmer because when Ricardo first came to Philly he was playing a Selmer Recital and Jacobi had the contract to work on the Philadelphia Orchestra clarinets. All of the clarinetists in the section at that time played Buffet so he only had to stock Buffet parts. Now with Ricardo playing the Selmer Jacobi had to purchase an inventory of Selmer parts which he was not happy about.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-11-08 05:53
To jhamm
I strongly suggest you have Larry Frank of Frank Woodwinds restore your clarinets entirely. He specializes in Selmer 10G clarinets. He is located in Philadelphia, PA and you can ship them to him. His turnaround time is fast and his work is of the highest quality found anywhere.
Post Edited (2018-11-08 10:58)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-11-08 06:20
Clarineteer wrote:
> To kdk
>
>
> I strongly suggest you have Larry Frank of Frank Woodwinds
> restore your clarinets entirely. He specializes in Selmer 10G
> clarinets. He is located in Philadelphia, PA and you can ship
> them to him. His turnaround time is fast and his work is of the
> highest quality found anywhere.
>
I wasn't looking for a shop for my 10Gs - jhamm was.
Karl
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Author: jhamm
Date: 2018-11-08 19:35
This is all very enlightening. Having been out of the clarinet world for so long (actually, it's arguable that I was never really in it), I am hopelessly out of date with all of these arcana.
My mouthpiece just has "P" on it, and no model number. I actually got it in 1991, after my original broke. It was what AG recommended, though by that time I think the mouthpiece company had gone to his first wife after the divorce.
I still have both original barrels. From the outside, they do not appear to be like the ones Karl describes-the bulge is at the lower end.
Since they are my only horns, I have been playing them and the intonation hasn't changed-I've just been working around it. There is no tape that I can see in the throat tone holes.
It sounds like my next step should be to see what Mike Hammer or Larry Frank would have to say. Karl recommended a skilled tech to help with the scale-would that service be offered in the shop?
It's a bit intimidating contemplating trying to find the optimal combination of mouthpiece and barrel, let alone thinking about exploring new reeds (I'm using Vandoren 56 Rue Lepic #5) and ligatures (think I'll stick with my Gigliotti for now, unless someone thinks that I could do much better).
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-11-08 20:26
Jhamm,
Larry Frank is more skilled and much less expensive and has a faster turn around time than Mike Hammer. Larry has a degree in mechanical engineering and has years experience working on human prosthetics where the tolerances are much closer than on woodwind instruments and he has a remarkable talent and thinks outside the box when there are difficult tasks to perform. I have used both Mike Hammer in the past and also Larry Frank so I speak from experience. Also Larry Frank gives a 2 year guarantee on all adjustments and will make them for free.
Post Edited (2018-11-08 20:28)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2018-11-08 20:27
The P’s were junk going into the late 80’s - they were all over the place measurement wise. That’s what the Husband/Wife duo who were in charge of measuring them told me.
They were good early on but quality control was trash with the maker.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: jhamm
Date: 2018-11-08 21:44
-"Larry Frank is more skilled and much less expensive"-Thanks for the tip!
-"The P’s were junk going into the late 80’s "-That might explain a lot.
This exchange has been very helpful
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Author: Klarikatz
Date: 2024-01-23 16:19
Thankyou everyone for all this info! I got my clarinet in Indy around 1986/87. My mom said the man bought it brand new but hardly played on it due to a heart attack. My 10G was overhauled by Straubinger in Indianapolis around 1994 when I was working on my Masters at Butler. I've been playing on a Pyne mp & barrel combo suggested by the principal clarinet in Nashville at the time...which was ~26 years ago. I've been a middle school band director for 24 yrs. As soon as I get to school, I'm going to check the serial number and see which 10G I have. I am worried about the wood quality looking dry. I had 2 brain surgeries in 2014 and had to learn to play the clarinet all over again. Half my face is still paralyzed, but I can keep up with my 8th graders, lol!
Thanks all for the info. I'll check back to let you know the specs. I do remember me having tuning issues with the original setup.
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