 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-10-24 20:23
The Louisiana Philharmonic, which has been devastated by Hurricane Katrina, got what seemed to be an offer too good to be true to play a 10-week gig in New York, with lots of money, and free transportation and lodging.
In fact, it was too good to be true. The booker wanted them to play in Radio City in case its own orchestra went out on strike.
Local 802 found out what was going on and told the Louisiana musicians. Needless to say, they turned down the offer, which, it turns out, would only pay a fraction of the Christmas season scale.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/22/arts/music/22stri.html
Three cheers for the New Orleans musicians. No scabs in New Orleans.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2005-10-24 21:45
I may be feeling a bit over feisty this PM, but how about all of those sound track recordings done by studio musicians (NYC professionals??) for the traveling circus and ice shows that ultimately put a lot of us local dues paying AFM musicians out of work. I have always thought that we should ALL stick together in showing support for live music. If what your are recording in the studio will replace fellow musicians somewhere else, don't do it. I will not come to NYC to sit in your Radio City Music Hall chair, why should you come to my home town--via recorded soundtrack--and sit in mine? Comments, anyone.....................?
Post Edited (2005-10-25 03:12)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-25 01:43
Scams like this are nothing new. With a big outfit like a full orchestra, if management had any business sense at all they shouldn't need Local 802 to tell 'em when something's fishy.
I agree with William and I'm not overly feisty tonight. What has the AFofM done to benefit small town musicians in the past twenty/thirty years that they couldn't manage for themselves?
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: vin
Date: 2005-10-25 20:30
larryb, I disagree with you based on my own experience. The national just help us negotiate our (regional) orchestra contract by sending a negotiator. There was NO way we would gotten everything we got without national help. Of course a union is only as good as its members or leaders, but we certainly, in a small town, were helped by AFofM.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-10-25 22:31
Hi ron b:
You posted:
"What has the AFofM done to benefit small town musicians in the past twenty/thirty years that they couldn't manage for themselves?
I don't know how long you've been a member of the AFM, but the Federation has done a lot to help every one of it's member, from large and small Locals. Just check the AFM website at:
http://www.afm.org/
You'll see in any issue of The International Musician, all the good they are doing at the Local and International levels. Those of us in the larger locals, like Local 802, can cite dozens of examples of the Union's help along with the AFM. Many of my colleagues here in NJ, and members of one of the smaller locals, Local 16, find constant help and support from our Local out here.
Why not contact the Local in your town to find out what they've done for their members recently. I'm sure the AFM will help you personally, when and if you need them.
PS I applaud the musicians from the towns ruined by Katrina, who would not work at NYC's Radio City Music Hall. A united musical work force can stop unfair and abusive employers from continuing to try to destroy live music.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2005-10-25 22:38)
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Author: Gary Foss
Date: 2005-10-26 00:30
I was in the union for 5 years, and I agree that it isn't very helpful to freelance musicians. The union is only interested in the big groups and then it's all about collecting dues. I think Unions in general are failing us workers nationwide. Just look at their splitup at the convention. Until the fatcats at the top start actually caring about the worker again(instead of how much they can get from them) unions will continue to falter.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-26 01:32
I'd like to hear from any of the N.O.'s musician's themselves that they needed the AFofM to tell them the offer was "suspicious". Did they turn down the 'offer' because the union told them something was haywire or did they figure that out for themselves?
By the way, John, what's the Union doing for the Louisiana Philharmonic musicians now?
- ron b -
Post Edited (2005-10-26 01:36)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2005-10-26 02:52
Whooee! Such snark against unions here! I have to admit I'm kind of surprised, but I guess it just reflects a widespread public ignorance about the good unions do for their members. (Is it "all about collecting dues," or is it all about helping members and needing to collect dues in order to do it? How do you expect unions to function if they don't collect dues?)
Admittedly, some union bosses have looted their unions, and some unions have been ineffective. But these days especially, look (REALLY look) at the good unions accomplish for their members in this country. Then go ask theatre musicians in NYC if they'd rather not have the union behind them when they go up against the League of Broadway Theatre Producers for contract renegotiation. Or ask the office-cleaners in NYC skyscrapers if they'd rather forgo their union dues AND see their wages and health benefits destroyed as well? Anywhere in this country you can still find a unionized labor force, be they cops, long-distance truckers, linemen, supermarket checkout people--ask THEM if they'd rather save their dues and watch their standard of living plummet.
Here's a little news flash for you: Radio City is owned by Cablevision, which recently was breathlessly trying to grab a piece of choice NYC real estate for $900 million. That's the kind of money they throw around for real estate, but they insist on a scab orchestra for Radio City! Cablevision also just opened the Independent Film Center here in NYC--a multimillion dollar renovation of an existing theatre. And they INSIST on non-union projectionists.
That's not a "business decision," because the money to pay a unionized labor force (with benefits, a responsible work week, and rules regarding working conditions) is THERE. Rather, it's a philosophy, and an especially ruthless one at that. The only truly effective countervailing force against that is union organization.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-10-26 02:59
rob b:
If you do a little online research, you'll find that many UNION orchestras around the country have sent money, and offered part time jobs to our colleagues from the Louisiana Philharmonic, and other orchestras affected by the hurricane.
I understand your frustration, but I feel OUR Union has done a lot, and will continue to do more for Katrina's victims as long as they need our help.
Broadway has sent over $300,000 to the areas affected by the storm, and we will send more aid as soon as our fund drive has ended. We are all Union members, and feel their pain and want to help.
So, you ask,"By the way, John, what's the Union doing for the Louisiana Philharmonic musicians now?"
My answer is...a lot!
rob b, what have you personally done to help?
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-26 04:58
I live in California, John. Most folks outside the disaster region cannot do anything personally, so I, like so many others, have donated money and personal items to a well known and reputable relief organization with the hope that in some small way it may comfort someone. I'm too old and too far away to do much else. Some of the young folks from our church were there recently for a couple of weeks volunteering labor, "gas masks" at the ready. Us 'old folks' support their efforts.
Your posts are always insightful and thought provoking, John. I sincerely appreciate your candid, and informative, observations. I'll try to find out (you've piqued my curiosity) what the local here is doing to help our fellows in the Katrina zone.
- r b -
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-10-26 05:38
It's interesting that no one has addressed William's comment about big city union musicians helping to eliminate local union jobs via the recording of canned music for ice shows, circuses, etc.
Allen Cole
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-26 07:09
Well, now ya done it, Allen. I dunno how we gonna get all those worms back in that can.
They been fumin' and fussin' in there for a very long time ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
- rb -
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-10-26 07:55
Yes, I saw a memo in the local union offices saying that the NY organization who was putting on the affair would be trying to hire NO musicians as a charitable act, at a low pay rate, of course. I'm glad the NO musicians turned it down.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-26 22:03
The recording issue was one that almost broke the union completely back in the 1940-1950 period. Petrillo, the leader at the time, stood his ground against the employers and ended up negotiating a halfway decent compromise, all things considered.
However, saying that is like saying that they "legalized" the use of recorded music. And, in a sense, that is absolutely true. Recorded materials are paid at a negotiated rate, just like everything else covered by the contracts administered by the union. Then, those musicians who did the original performance continue to be compensated (under the union's system) while the recording is in use. In effect, they continue to accrue benefits from the recorded work even though they never lift another key.
(It may not be very much per period, but it's the gift that keeps on giving. I've known of payments for relatively minor work done back in the 1960's to continue on into the 1990's.)
So, on one hand some union members benefit, while on the other some other union members are "put out of work". That's life in the trade, folks; only so many slots for so many folks.
In doing this, it's not much different than the movie house orchestras being put out of business by the talkies (and you should have heard Grandfather Willie grouse about that "change in working conditions" back in the 1920's).
Recordings are technological shifts that a craft group like the AF of M are not particularly suited to deal with, since part of their stock in trade is exclusivity (something that technology has always been death to over the span of history). Put another way, the strict application of the musician's union credo to music overall (i.e., "all music played by live musicians") would have all of us relying upon a union performance group of individual musicians to supply our every musical need.
(I've often wondered why, in the world where a synthesizer player is looked down upon for "putting others out of work", piano players are not looked at in the same fashion. There you have it, a musical instrument (albeit one as heavy as a tank) that can fully harmonize music from the get go. Ditto the organs, especially those with zillions of stops. Just think of all of the clarinet players, oboe players, and (dare I say it) "vox humana" players that have been put out of work by those monsters...)
(And, yes, I know that vox humana means "human voice". It's a joke.)
That would be great for employment of musicians, but (in broad terms) death to modern life as we know it. Imagine a world without phonograph records, without radio and television broadcast because "all of these media put local musicians out of work".
No, the Luddites who would advocate such an approach would be pushed aside in an instant. Instead, we have the reasonable approach (the AF of M/ASCAP?BMI "per play rembursement" methods) that affords continued compensation to those who do the work, and reasonable access to those who want to hear it.
Can't turn back the clock, at least not that much.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-10-27 11:19
A very good explanation, Terry, and what you're saying is true.
But what William has pointed out--and what I would also put forward--is that we see what looks like a double standard with local 802. Threaten jobs on Broadway and we have a national crisis. Threaten local jobs here in flyover country, and the 802 guys are essentially saying, "dont' worry guys, we're going to make sure that WE get residuals for the jobs that YOU lost."
It's a real-world situation and many local musicians accept the fact that maintaining some of these local jobs would bankrupt our sister arts. We just see a touch of hypocrisy when the 802 guys enable this and then sqwak about the same thing happening in their own territory.
Allen Cole
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-10-27 13:26
You know Allen, and some others on the BBoard, I'm a bit saddened by your negative references to Local 802 and it's member musicians.
"But what William has pointed out--and what I would also put forward--is that we see what looks like a double standard with local 802. Threaten jobs on Broadway and we have a national crisis. Threaten local jobs here in flyover country, and the 802 guys are essentially saying, "dont' worry guys, we're going to make sure that WE get residuals for the jobs that YOU lost."
It's a real-world situation and many local musicians accept the fact that maintaining some of these local jobs would bankrupt our sister arts. We just see a touch of hypocrisy when the 802 guys enable this and then sqwak about the same thing happening in their own territory."
The reality is:
We work hard performing live music here in NYC. That successful Broadway show, or many other musical acts, then travel around the country, and sometimes worldwide, making jobs for the Local players who fill in when the production reaches their town. In general, if the show or act fails in NYC, we lose the work and all of the Local musicians elsewhere lose out also.
With regard to recording done here, and mostly LA, in the past. Those soundtracks are used by countless groups to encourage backers in smaller communities to come up with the necessary money to produce an amateur or community production, which in turn helps local audiences, and Local musicians hear live Broadway and play live music in their own venues.
If your local Locals are not following up on the hiring of musicians for productions that come your way, then get out there and vote them out of office...take charge. We have had past Union officials voted out of office for not negotiating in our best interests, and many local players here at Local 802, have joined the Union as officials to make the changes that have kept live music vital and part of the NY experience.
Working on keeping music alive in your towns and cities isn't easy, and it just doesn't happen on its own, you have to make the changes and fight for your rights.
Call the AFM, or David Lennon, the President of Local 802. They are available for advise and, on the Local level, help for your problems. We do not take away work from other Union members, the work is shared by many other Locals nationwide.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-10-27 15:39
There have been black pots and kettles on both sides. When stereo recording came in, the union demanded to be paid double because two recordings were being made, one for each channel. A strike was averted, but only narrowly.
We need to look at each situation individually.
Here, the Radio City musicians are negotiating a new contract, and, to put pressure on the employer, are threatening to strike during the holiday season, when most of the money is made.
The employer is looking to have another orchestra if the union strikes. Whether or not they approach other Local 802 players, or NYC non-union players, is a separate issue. What happened here is that they tried to get the New Orleans players, at much less than the current union rates, by concealing from them that they would be hired as strikebreakers.
Ken Shaw
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